Howdy folks.
Well, I've been out for a few brews tonight and have been engaging in a bit of table-side discussion. One of the topics brought up was the nature and existence of the spirit. Now of course this is a subject within which there can be no definitive facts or answers, yet I am curious as to what people's opinions as to the nature of spirituality entails. Be it theistic religious predestination, agnostic ponderation, atheist dismissal, anything. Open up and share the love [img]smile.gif[/img]

I've pretty much been brought up under the notion that there are no souls, no supernatural forces transcendant of physical flesh. Although as I'm getting older in my youth I'm finding the muse of spirituality all the more appealing, and whilst I've certainly had no born-again revelations as to the nature of the universe I am definately beginning to understand the power of faith in the hearts and minds of a community as a whole. I'd love to believe, but my atheistic prejudices are holding theistic faith at bay. Maybe with a little time I'll be able to fully relax with the notion of the spirit, but for now I'm open to the opinions of others and I'd love to hear what you all have to say.

[ 09-09-2002, 08:17 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Ps: I'm not meaning to get all heavy on you guys. And I realize everyone may or may not be sick to death of religious discussion in these forums. But my question isn't so much about religious debate, more about what you think the 'spirit' is (if you think it exists at all). No right or wrong answers, no flaming, no criticising people's opinions. Just speak your mind, plain and simple.

I like discussions like these, Hierophant (provided they don't end up in flames :( ) -- and I'm sure Cerek the Gentle Barbarian does, too. :D Interesting that I should have just come back from a bookstore with a book on precisely such topics, only to run into your thread. The Spirit must be trying to talk to me!

I suppose before we can really take off in any direction we need to clarify our terms of reference. What (to you) is 'spirit'? Just what does it mean to be 'spiritual'?

That's just the thing, I'm not really sure. I know that the human mind (brain) has an incredible power to produce euphoric sensations that could be attributed to a sense of soul. I know that when under extreme pressures (lack of oxygen, High g-forces, near-death etc) then tunnel-vision and a sense of heavenly bliss can overcome the mind.
I would assume the judeo-christian 'spirit' relates to mankinds attribution of physical forces to the intangible 'perfection' of existence. The search for something better, by which to compare and judge the mortal flesh. It makes alot of sense in a optimistic christian sort of way, and provides the vital service of holding many societies together, but is it really credible? That's what I'm always wondering. I know, I know, it's for me alone to decide my own beliefs, but it's just tricky when there's so much conflicting input.

I once joked with someone that there are many types of 'spirit': holy spirit, methylated spirit, team spirit, evil spirit... :D

More seriously, I suppose one may define 'spirit' as that which is eternal. Not just in the sense of 'lasting indefinitely in time', but in the sense that it answers your deepest longings and needs.

Let me explain. You want something. You get it. Okay, you feel satisfied for a while. Just a while. Later, the sense of satisfaction fades; you want something else again. Thus your deepest longings and needs have not been satisfied -- if they were, the sense of satisfaction would not fade, right? In this sense, that something you sought was not 'eternal'. It did not bring lasting satisfaction; before long you were up and about again looking for something else -- and this running about and looking for something is essentially what time is. You're looking constantly to the future. But if you can be truly satisfied with something, then you become so absorbed in it that there's only the present -- you become totally oblivious to the passage of time. You enter a state of timelessness -- the eternal. That's why I define 'spirit' as eternal in the sense that it answers your deepest longings and needs.

Am I making sense so far? :D Anyway, that's how I define 'spirit'. As for whether it exists... let me hear from you first. ;)

[ 09-09-2002, 09:25 AM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

That's a good definition there KT.
As for whether 'it exists', it's just a matter of faith I guess. If you want to believe it exists, then there's nothing that can stop you. I'd like to think there is something more than the temporary flesh, but perhaps life itself is simply just not meant to have this degree of self-reflection as to the nature of it's own existence. Maybe the problem of the soul is a purely human concern brought about by a brain too big for it's own good [img]smile.gif[/img] Innoncence is bliss. But if I had to make the leap of faith then, if I'm put on the spot with a yes or no answer being the only outcome, well, hmmmm, I'd say (very faintly) yes.

At least you're not too hasty to put it all down as hogwash. ;)

On my part, yes, I believe in 'spirit', though my belief is based on the testimonials of mystics from the world's major spiritual traditions. When you study the writings of people like Meister Eckhart, St Hildegard of Bingen, Jacob Boehme, Rumi, Sankara and others, you often find surprising similarities in their accounts despite their widely differing cultural backgrounds. So I really do not think that 'spirit' is something entirely subjective. Only trouble is, I haven't had any firsthand experience of the Eternal myself so far, unlike them. It's like hearing a lot of people talk about orange juice but never getting to try some yourself. ;)

That much said, I don't think it's fair to dismiss testimony as a possible source of knowledge. After all, everything I've ever known about the Eiffel Tower is derived from testimony; I've never been to France to see it myself.

Just my 2 cents for now. ;)

<font color="plum">Greetings <font color="cyan">Heirophant</font> and <font color="deeppink">K.T.</font>

I do indeed enjoy discussions of this nature (<font color="yellow">like the veritable moth to a flame</font>). It is absolutely my favorite subject to discuss.

<font color="cyan">Heirophant</font> - I am also glad to see that you haven't completely "shut the door" on spirituality. I really can't provide a better definition than <font color="deeppink">K.T.</font> has, so I will just accept his, if that's alright.

He is also correct in that the spirit seeks eternal gratification, rather than temporary satifaction. Humans are created with a soul that looks for something "larger" than themselves to "believe in" or "worship".

Christians look to God to fill this "void", Muslims call on Allah, Buddhist worship Buddha, and New Agers rely on power crystals.

Atheists and agnostics "generally" fill this longing with a desire for some type of material gain or physical possession. That doesn't necessarily mean they seek material wealth. Some may be artists who find this "inner longing" satiated by the paintings they create. While others simply deny that any "inner desire" exists at all.

I know what the answer is for me, but I would not be so bold as to say it is the answer for everyone. Some simply can't reconcile the thought of an ephemeral, all-powerful Creator with the occurances of tragedy and strife caused by His "creations". I understand that perfectly.

As you said, the answer does ultimately lie with you alone. But you have taken the first steps on the journey of your self-discovery. By realizing there may be something more and actively seeking it, the answers will eventually come to you. Your journey may not lead you to the same "destination" as <font color="deeppink">K.T.</font> or myself. All that matters is that the final answer satisfies you.</font>

Hello, Cerek. Glad to hear from you again (not that you haven't been around at IW). Like your rather poetic line: "Like a veritable moth to a flame."

Largely agree, the answers do ultimately lie with the individual alone. What is surprising is the degree and frequency with which the answers actually agree with each other. But until one finds them oneself, they will be secondhand accounts. It's one thing to hear a lot of people talk about the tastes of orange juice, and entirely another thing altogether to taste some yourself.

Let's continue our search for the Light, friends. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-09-2002, 09:28 PM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

Well this is one of my more favorite subjects too. To be right to the point yes i do believe the spirit exists. One argument for the existance of such a thing is just to look at the history of religion every religion with the exception of agnostisism hase some concept of a greater essence residing with in you. But then if your not religious this argument might not do much for you, but ask this does it really make much of a difference in your life weather you believe in a spirit regardless of what religion if any you believe in? The whole concept is around to provide comfort to what happens to you after you die because many people don't like the idea of it just ending and thats it thats all she wrote. Also just as thought if eventually you do deside to look into a religion look into all of them and deside which religion you like best and which best fits your charecter you might find a little known religion that fits you to the preverbial T. Hope i don't sound to patranizing or zelous that isn't what i'm trying to do, or be. I'm not even trying to convinse you that you should even have religion in your life i'm still asking myself that question. Just spend some time and read and critically annalize all point of view and think of what you want from life. Most importantly all say it again be yourself don't try to conform to a religion that doesn't suit your outlook or view of thing you will only frustrated and demoralized.

<font color = lightgreen>I've been down the "this world is the only world and there is nothing else" path. Ultimately, it is incredibly unfulfilling and tends to make one incredibly sarcastic, cynical, and bitter.

I grew up under a particular faith, but I found that it didn't suit me. Eventually, I began reading a lot of stuff--Zen, Catholicism, Hinduism, Islam, and comparative mythology (mostly Campbell). Cerek is right when he said that your "soul" is looking for something "bigger"; it almost becomes fun when you realize that it almost doesn't really matter which path you choose--we all wind up in the same place. As long as you're honest with yourself, you'll know when you have found your own path. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

Fully agree -- though sheer peer pressure can still steer you away from your own search and impose on you a belief you didn't want to adopt. :( And the "this world is the only world and there is nothing else" path is a very popular path nowadays -- especially among us East Asians, mind you...

I suppose that may be true, but before you reach that place you'll still need to take into account the topography of your own personal preferences. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Some great replies so far. All of you seem to be giving genuine thought to spiritual matters and I havn't seen a single flame or 'holier-than-thou' post. Excellent [img]smile.gif[/img]

KT Ong and Cerek: You both seem to be genuine spiritual pilgrims, walking a path of inquisition and not allowing dogmatic indoctrination get in the way of the direction you feel you need to take. It's very heartening to see [img]smile.gif[/img]

Blade: Religion certainly has always had (and definately still has) a place within society (well, at least within the Judeo-Christian society)in giving hope and a sense of stability to the disheartened. Personally though I'm very wary of churches that try to impose a strict set of rules upon how a person should and shouldn't live, particularly those that claim 'live this way or you'll suffer later!'. To me it just smacks of human dictatorial tendencies and doesn't reflect a genuine interest in the exploration of the human spirit. But, that is just the way I see things now, perhaps with time I will grow to understand how the church (Particularly the Presbytarian church, which is very strong where I live) operates with greater clarity.

Azred: I know what you mean, the notion that all there is is this experience and nothing else is a little disheartening. Personally I wouldn't even need a belief in the afterlife to allay my qualms (eternal sleep sounds just fine to me [img]smile.gif[/img] ), just some sort of indication that there is some sort of greater force that holds this existence together. That it is not all just a circumstantial fluke. And yes, I agree with you that honesty toward one's self and in the search for one's place in the world is vital to understanding just what that place is and how it fits into a phenomonally greater system.

Humility, honesty, compassion and patience seem to be what the doctor orders on this one [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yeap couldn't agree more about being turned off about people saying "This is the only way and all others will suffer". Just today for instance in the middle of campous there was someone saying we were all the sons and daughters of sinners and if we didn't embrase Christ we were all going to hell [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img] all i could do was shake my head. No single religion in my opinion is totally correct or totally wrong, wrather they have all seen the devine and through the ethics of the founders they founded a religion off of it. So its my understanding that if a "god" or "gods" do exist all religions worship the same ditie(s) so how could one be more right then the next. As long as you live a moral life, at least moral by your own standards then i believe you will have a good afterlife whatever you believe that after life is.

P.S. Don't worry about anyone trying to convert you or flame you Z and the almighty choc don't let that happen on their boards :D . Besides we are an open community with people from every religion and area here so if you ask questions about anything at all usually you will get kind and very informative replyes.

Just thought I'd ask you folks a question -- if you're still following this, that is. [img]smile.gif[/img] What is it that prompts you to believe there is this 'something greater', whether you call it 'God', 'Spirit' or whatever? This is not a challenge, just a question. I've already given an answer -- and I have others up my sleeve, too ;) -- but for now how about offering yours?

For me I guess it's an inbuilt feeling of smallness. That my actual material size is grossly disproportionate to the vastness of this existential plane. This leads me to wonder as to just whether or not we are as important as we (usually) think we are, or whether we are just smaller pieces to a vastly more complex puzzle. Just perpetual and overbearing curiosity really.

A sense of awe in the face of this vast Universe, in other words, yeah? [img]smile.gif[/img]

There's one more thing, too; it is not only the awesome immensity of the Cosmos, but the extreme complexity of creation as well. It has been calculated that the odds against the chance formation of the 2,000 enzymes found throughout the biosphere from their constituent amino acids are figures of such magnitude as to span roughly 40,000 digits if written out in longhand. In view of this, it becomes a positive strain on the imagination -- for me, anyway -- to believe that life could have arisen by pure accident from the random combinations of particles in a void. Life is not an accident.

It's a very interesting Universe we live in, Hierophant. ;)

Oh yes. Oh yes it is ;)
Too bad this flesh-and-blood body cannot even begin to comprehend it all.

<font color="plum">I was raised as a Christian. I've gone to church fairly regularly since I was a child, so I've always believed in God. But that is not why I believe in God now.

I believe in God now because I have personally felt His presence in my life. He has provided for my every need (spouse, children, home, job). All of these came directly from Him. He has answered every prayer I've offered to Him and I've even "heard" His voice in direct answer to prayer before.

Five years ago, I had to have emergency surgery to save my life. After the operation, the surgeon told my wife and mother that I still would not survive the next 72 hours without a miracle. I later learned that many, many people were praying for me back home during my surgery. I knew nothing about, but God heard their prayers and spared me for reasons of His own. Had I died, my oldest son would never have really known me (he was only 8 mos old at the time) and my other two boys would never have been born.

<font color="gray">Blade</font> - I can fully understand your feelings towards the person preaching on campus. One of the biggest injustices we do as Christians is harp on the punishment for not accepting Jesus rather than explaining the dynamic and wonderfully loving relationship Jesus develops with those who accept Him. I agree with the message he was bringing, but I just shake my head in disappointment at how that message is delivered.

Jesus was about LOVE and acceptance, not denial and punishment. I only wish more Christians could focus on this aspect of God's message. I didn't have this exciting relationship with God until after I accepted Jesus as my Savior. Before that, I was simply "going through the motions" and church, God, and the Bible didn't mean very much to me at all. Jesus brought it all together for me.

That's why I believe in God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit now.</font>

allow me to give you the shamanic point of view ;)

the body is unimportant. it's a vessel, nothing more. The spiritual cord leads from your "third eye" to the spirit to connect it while "alive".

there are many things you can do when you realise your spirit and become aware of it (too much to go into here). As for heaven and hell? well since the astral is pretty much manipulated by your mind, people that expect to go to hell will see heel when they die, etc..

and before you ask, we enter the astral every night in our dreams

To Cerek ~ Your message on Christ's love is deeply moving as ever. [img]smile.gif[/img] Glad you made it through on that occasion, BTW. Did you have a near-death experience? Just curious.

To Lord Shield ~ If the body is unimportant, does it mean you won't have to bother to keep it alive with food and shelter etc? :D

[ 09-10-2002, 07:14 PM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]