one of the finest intellectuals and writers of the usa, being witch-hunted now by the conservative inteligentzia because of her insightful views on 9-11 and the "war on terrorism" of bushie. so, have any of you read or heard about her? what do you think?

Do you have a link or something, so i can read some of her stuff ?

I guess this may be one of the pieces she wrote to become "witch-hunted":

Susan Sontag, The New Yorker, September 24, 2001



The disconnect between last Tuesday's monstrous dose of reality and the self-righteous drivel and outright deceptions being peddled by public figures and TV commentators is startling, depressing. The voices licensed to follow the event seem to have joined together in a campaign to infantilize the public. Where is the acknowledgement that this was not a "cowardly" attack on "civilization" or "liberty" or "humanity" or "the free world" but an attack on the world's self-proclaimed super-power, undertaken as a consequence of specific American alliances and actions? How many citizens are aware of the ongoing American bombing of Iraq? And if the word "cowardly" is to be used, it might be more aptly applied to those who kill from beyond the range of retaliation, high in the sky, than to those willing to die themselves in order to kill others. In the matter of courage (a morally neutral virtue): whatever may be said of the perpetrators of Tuesday's slaughter, they were not cowards.

Our leaders are bent on convincing us that everything is O.K. America is not afraid. Our spirit is unbroken, although this was a day that will live in infamy and America is now at war. But everything is not O.K. And this was not Pearl Harbor. We have a robotic president who assures us that America stands tall. A wide spectrum of public figures, in and out of office, who are strongly opposed to the policies being pursued abroad by this Administration apparently feel free to say nothing more than that they stand united behind President Bush. A lot of thinking needs to be done, and perhaps is being done in Washington and elsewhere, about the ineptitude of American intelligence and counter-intelligence, about options available to American foreign policy, particularly in the Middle East, and about what constitutes a smart program of military defense. But the public is not being asked to bear much of the burden of reality. The unanimously applauded, self-congratulatory bromides of a Soviet Party Congress seemed contemptible. The unanimity of the sanctimonious, reality-concealing rhetoric spouted by American officials and media commentators in recent days seems, well, unworthy of a mature democracy.

Those in public office have let us know that they consider their task to be a manipulative one: confidence-building and grief management. Politics, the politics of a democracy--which entails disagreement, which promotes candor--has been replaced by psychotherapy. Let's by all means grieve together. But let's not be stupid together. A few shreds of historical awareness might help us to understand what has just happened, and what may continue to happen. "Our country is strong", we are told again and again. I for one don't find this entirely consoling. Who doubts that America is strong? But that's not all America has to be.


Mark

yep, thats one of them.

Wow. Witch hunted.

I like her already :D

<font color="#55aacc"> She doesnt sound insightful, intellectual or particularly good at being objective. She sounds like a rather spite filled officious and pompous person who hates her country and everything it stands for. But thats just my opinion of her.....I had that opinion before the listed article too though. I never liked her views (big surprise there).

On top of that she was crude enough to not even wait a decent amount of time for people to get over their shock before writing that inflamatory piece o' crap!

Just my opinion and I know how much you value that ;) </font>

<font color="#55aacc"> Just out of curiosity how is she being witch hunted? is she being threatened with a burning at the stake? And plese document how "bushie" is opressing her. Did he file a lawsuit? or did he just have her assassinated by the secret service? has he dispatched the black helicopters for her?

Yeah I know that sounds pretty sarcastic, but the request for information is real none the less. </font>

Well... I actually do believe.. (*gunshots followed by an uneasy silence..)

In case anyone is interested, read a short bio here: http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/sontag.htm

Mark

eehrrm... i dindt say bushie was oppresing her or hunting her down. where did you read that??? heres my post.

oh, and what i meant about her being witch-hunted by some media is pretty obvious. one thing is criticism and another one is abuse. you summed it up pretty well, by saying she doesnt love her country, just because she has a different opinion. thats just one example.

Well I like her. It's refreshing to see different opinions than the mainstream, isn't it?

The lemming mentality rules! "Either you are with us or against us!"

Hmmm, who said that? ;)

Mark

<font color="#55aacc">Hating the policies, and apparently anyone who doesnt go along with her liberal leftist mentality (which is obvious from some of her other writings for various news papers) is not showing her to be an intelectual. It takes more than just despising those who have a different stand than you to be an intellectual, if that were the case you would have to vote me as the most intellectual person on the planet [img]smile.gif[/img] .

She hasnt been persecuted by any of the mainstream media that I have heard or seen. I do see an occasional article by her in the washington post or other papers so it doesnt sound like she has had much of a hard time at all. (I think she was even on one of the "talking head" shows on sunday not too long ago.)

What she has run into is outrage and contempt for her insensitivity to people who lost loved ones. And for her really lousey timing. I realize that is the fad to only be sensitive to those who are on the liberal left, but regular run of the day people who have had a terrible injustice done to them deserve some sensitivity too.

It is quite apparent from her own writings that Ms. Sontag does NOT like her country. No where in any of her rightings does she espouse any love for democracy and capitalism, which is what this country is.

Anyhoo my apologies for misconstruing your comments on Bushie. </font>

[ 09-10-2002, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color="#55aacc">Who's being a lemming? Saying that someone is a lemming is implying that their opinion is in the majority. However I would say that the total numbers of people with a left bent is exceeding the ones with a right bent. [img]smile.gif[/img] And since almost NOONE agrees withme [img]smile.gif[/img] I must be out standing in my field...alone [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font color="#55aacc">I would have more respect for her except she never seems to come up with anything new. She just keeps on with the same issues and never tries to balance her stories. As far as the mainstream, I think The Washington Post and New York Times seem to like her and her views. It was only their readers who were PO'd [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

The lemming comment was strictly tied to the quote in my post, where either the world follows and are considered friends or countries don't and are considered enemies. We would like everyone to follow our lead and at the time of the quote dissension was deemed unacceptable. Everything I post is not absolute unlike the quote appeared to be.

Mark

I'm not disagreeing with you skywalker, but to me the "Lemming mentality" is slightly different than what you are saying. I'm not a biologist and I never played the game, but to me a Lemming is someone who blindly follows the crowd with no thought or worry of the future and/or consequences. I think the American public has been guilty of this for a very long time. It was around before Osama (IMHO). That belief is a result of my lack of faith in the critical/independent thinking of people in general (especially Americans). (Shoot me, I'm a pessimist and a cynic).

The other part of your post I agree with. I definately get the feeling that Bush has a "with us or against us" attitude. That doesn't make him (or the coutries he's trying to convince) a Lemming. It makes him a Fascist. (Did I really just say that. Don't be too hard on me Majik [img]smile.gif[/img] )

As to Sontag. I had heard of her, but never read anything of hers except the article posted earlier. Unsensitive? Yes. Hates her country? Not from what I read in the article. Maybe in her other work. I don't know.

I don't think I hate the U.S., but I do disagree with a lot of things the government does (Rep, Dem, State and Federal). I think capitalism, in its various forms, is the most effiecient type of economy, but I'm not convinced that it is the "best" for human beings or the planet. [cf. Enron, WorldCom, pollution]. Maybe Sontag does hate the country, but I don't think any of us can say for sure. For all we know, she may be pulling an Andy Kaufman on us and writing these articles to get us (or at least Majik) riled up. I think you can be extremely critical of our countries policies and campaign for non-capitalist economies and still love the country. The country is something different than our government or our economy (although it may be partially made up of parts of those things, if that makes any sense.)

The "abuse" issue:
I don't think Majik was being abusive. Vociferous and opinionated sure, but not abusive. He walks a fine line with, but I think the second sentence there makes it ok. He's just stating his (obviously wrong :D ) opinion. [side note to Majik: Just because she isn't here to hear what we are saying doesn't mean we can't be abusive. It just means her feelings won't get hurt.]

People who speak out against the policies of their government do not hate their country, on the contrary they want to try to make it better. There is a fine line though.

Mark

[ 09-10-2002, 01:54 PM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

<font color="#55aacc"> Mark I agree with your last comment [img]smile.gif[/img]

And LOX no worries [img]smile.gif[/img] and you were correct about your definition of lemmings, and I agree that most americans if not most humans are very much lemmings, or perhaps to use another persons made up word, "sheeple". I think if there is one thing I can safely say, it is that I most definately do not fit the lemming or sheeple appelation.

I have read some of Susan Sontags stuff in various news magazines or papers, don't remember exactly what she was writing about and so my stated opinion of her is just the sum total of the impressions she made on me. If she were sitting next to me, I might be nicer to her, but I would still be wanting to quote (pasaphrase actually) Chevy Chase of Saturday Night Live at her

"Susan! You ignorant Sl**"

I also agree with LOX that I was walking a fine line and was evidently just in a pissy mood when I first started posting in this thread.</font>

Sheeple, I love it! :D I'm going to start using that one. Was it someone from IW that came up with it? If so I want to thank them for adding a good word to the English language. And you got to love Chevy Chase.

I can see how she would make someone mad though. If she says that about 9-11, I wonder what she says about less touchy issues?

Side note: Last night I met someone who lost a relative on Flight 93 (in PA). First person I met that lost someone that day. I actually have known the guy for a while (we play basketball once a week), but I went out for beer with 4 of the guys afterwards and heard his story. Kind of eerie, finally meeting someone with a personal connection 364 days later.