I was just wondering, why do we not allow people to commit suicide?
Or rather, why do we try to stop them?
I agree that if someone has just had a bad day or broke up with their boy/girl friend or something, they shouldn't kill themself, but if someone don't think their life will get any better and really wants to die, shouldn't we respect that? I mean, it's their body, their life.
Why is it so taboo to take ones life?

Why, do you think? And what is your opinion?

well originally it was considered a sin. if people commit suicide how could the Church lure these people into their fold? LOL!!! (cynical hat on there)

I consider it a bad idea simply because of all the grief that would be left behind. Relatives, friends, etc...

I once considered it myself but a good friend brought me round.

I would only personally say it is really acceptable if you're medically incapable fo having a life to be honest (such cases have happened too)

Well, personally I believe that it depends. In some cases like people having lost all of their limbs it'd be more merciful to just kill them. Selfish of us to keep them around if their life could never be improved.

If it's just a bad period, having lost a job, a g/f, had a divorce, stuff like that, we should prevent people from killing themselves. Things can still get better.

"Thus we hear that suicide is the most cowardly of acts, that only a madman would commit it, and similar insipidites; or the senseless assertion that suicide is 'wrong', it is obvious that there is nothing in the world a man has more incontestable right to than his own life and person"

--Schopenhauer. ;)

He summed it up entirely for me.

I too hate the enourmous pain and stress that is inflicted upon the friends and family of a person who commits suicide. They might start asking, "why did s/he do it? Did it have something to do with me? Could I have done something?"

But then again, I kind of understand why some people are driven to do this. Life isn't a walk in the park anymore, and it seems to be getting harder and more demanding as time goes by. Some people believe that they just can't handle it.

I think it all comes down to your view of the nature and purpose of human existence. Which is a very large issue I'm not prepared to go into at the moment.

Suffice it to say for now that, if one's view is that 'We are but dust' -- nothing more -- then any value we care to assign to human life is effectively negated and there can be no special reason not to terminate our lives as and when we see fit. I don't buy the view that 'We are but dust', BTW. ;)

I Agree. Any Other Time, Things Will Pick Up. or They Should.

That's absolutely not true. A severe clinical depression, while treatable, is not something that will 'just pick up'.
However, in most cases of teen angst it WOULD be a waste... almost everybody at some point in their life wonders what's the use of it all.
So mostly I agree with Neb: it should be allowed, but we do have an obligation to help people and prevent them from killing themselves, as in most cases, things WILL get better.
Still, in the end I think it's a person's right to decide about their own life and death (not going into dodgy territory like criminals on hunger strike etc here, just generally speaking)
So we should do all we can to prevent it, yet respect a person's wishes if there's really nothing left for them to care about in the world.

But why?
Cause things doesn't always pick up. And I'm not talking about teenage angst or temporary depresses, I'm talking about people who are tired of living, and has given it plenty of thought.
Why can't we see it as the solution to ending misery that it is?
Why do we do everything we can to keep them suffering?

Ummm Regin, I'm actually agreeing with you, read my post again.
So I'll repeat; I do feel that people have the right to decide whether they want to live or die, BUT I am not advocating the societal indifference some people display. Giving the people the right to decide to commit suicide doesn't mean we don't CARE if they commit suicide! What's wrong with trying to help them overcome their suicidal tendencies. Usually, the people that we are able to help are the ones that WANT help anyway, the ones who've already decided won't be discovered until it's too late.

Oh, I wasn't attacking you Melusine, I simply used your post as an example. ;) Sorry if I didn't make myself clear.

And once again, I'm not talking about people with temporary depressions or who had some misfortunes, I'm talking about people who have given it alot of thought, who have talked to others and that have found that the best alternative is death.

I wasn't saying you were attacking me either, Regin. ;)

Truth is, the people you talk about are rare. People who are otherwise healthy but have a sincere and deeprooted deathwish don't stand around talking to other people: they just do it. The ones who DO say they want to die more often than not are still looking for a way to enjoy life once more, looking for help.
Unless you're talking about terminally or chronically ill people, but that's euthanasia, which is permitted in my country and therefore less of an issue for me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

well, you have a point. I agree that they are rare, but is it because of society's view on suicide? That people that have a "healthy" view on suicide are considered strange and terrible people, and therefore not many talk about their views (eeh..do you follow?).
Two questions arise; why is it so taboo to commit suicide? And should it stay that way or not?

well, to a certain extent, if suicide WAS legal, a lot more people would take the "easy way out". Truth is (and I know this is an opinion) they would come out all the stronger for it be living through it

And, if suicide was easy, they would not get this chance

btw, am I the only one reminded of the song "Suicide is Painless" (theme tune for M.A.S.H)

(My opinion)
I believe in the Bible and one of the Ten Commandments is "Thou Shalt Not Kill".
I believe that includes ourselves.
My sympathy goes out to the terminally ill and aged who have to endure lives that don't seem like they are worth living but there could be some important life's lesson in the very last natural moment of it that has significant meaning to one's soul and to deprive yourself of it could have even more negative consequences than having lived it through. I am not referring to "burning in Hell" although there is the possibility that it (or just going to Hell) could be one of the consequences, but to the possibility of reincarnation and coming back from one miserable life to live another one that is even worse.

[ 08-25-2002, 11:33 AM: Message edited by: Moni ]

It's always struck me as odd that suicide is a crime. I mean, what're police going to do, walk up to a corpse and arrest it?

Now, before you think I'm all desensitized and all, I went through a suicidal period of my own once... actually twice. I was brought around (in large part due to the fact that I just didn't want to put my loved ones through the consequences of my own selfish actions), but I figure that it's still someone's right to do with their life as they see fit.

Yes, I'm Christian, and no, I don't think God would approve of me taking my own life. But, I don't feel right in imposing my beliefs on others. If someone is going to come around, they'll do it without me forcing them to agree with my beliefs against their will.

I believe that the law merely shows this society's disapproval of it, as an example of the belief that ultimate good is life. Not that in some societies, it is not considered a praiseworthy thing under the right circumstances. The Romans and the Japanese, to take just two examples, considered it almost noble, if it were done as an act of protest or apology. The Christian Church has always abhorred it, at one time refusing burial on consecrated ground for suicides. This was because suicide was considered the ultimate manifestation of the capital sin of Despair, the rejection of God's Grace as manifested by the Holy Spirit. It was actually referred to as "the Rejection of the Holy Spirit, the one unforgivable sin." (St. Thomas Acquinas, I believe)

Interesting read Attalus! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

You often hear people joking about suicide being against the law, like "what are they going to do, sentence me to death?" :D
But I guess the law does apply for most cases, which are suicide ATTEMPTS. I have no stats on this but I imagine there are a lot more suicide attempts than there are successful suicides. And I know I said I believe in the right to decide about your own life, but I also know that a severe depression can cloud your judgement to the point where you really are incapable of making the right decision. A lot of people who've attempted suicide are immensely grateful later on to the person who saved them. While I don't think suicide should be illegal, I imagine that's the underlying thought of such a law: it gives medics and professionals the legal back-up to help suicide-attemptees refind their will to live.

Voluntary discorporation is illegal because of Religious taboo.

I think the fear that death is permanent or that punishment awaits in the afterlife drives the suicide taboo. I dont believe in either. If I were to discorporate right now. I believe I would be a free spirit, aware of , but unseen in the physical realm. Suicide is way less fearful and taboo if we all live beyond our body anyway.

Ultimately it is my life and if I'm gonna end it its mine to do so. It just makes it more exciting that someone would actually try to stop me.

Which brings me to the point that most suicide ATTEMPTS aren't suicide attempts but a way of communicating pain that is unbearable. Pleas for help.

Most suicide SUCCESSES are just that...voluntary discorporation as a means to end unbearable pain.

True Chewbacca, that's why I stressed that in the case of an attempt, it WILL almost always be worthwhile to try and help that person: they most likely did not really, not deeply want to die.

[ 08-25-2002, 12:28 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

:takesabow: Thank you, milady. "Praise from Sir Hubert is praise, indeed." The public health figures show that there are, in Texas, about twice as many attempted suicides reported as succcessful ones. As a physician, I know that many suicide attempts are insincere, a cry for help, as somebody says. They can also be an attention-getting device. Serious suicide attempts are usually apparent, as much more damage is done. Pill takers are usually the most insincere ones, and shooters the least. One of my ex-patients slashed her wrists, driving her kids and husband wild.

[ 08-25-2002, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: Attalus ]

I've seen a few suicides in my surroundings, and they were all unexpected. They were healthy guys, no problems that we (their friends) knew of. And i can only come to one conclusion: it was pretty selfish of those guys, left their families and friends without a clue of what was bothering them. I still hate them for it.

Yes, Johnny, the rage of the survivors is often intense, and rechanneled into self-destructive behaviors, like sexual promiscuity and alcohol and drug abuse.

Actually I think wrist slitting is the way which is most a cry for help, because most people make a lateral cut across the width of the wrist, and tha shows that they are either doing it for attention, as it scars, and know someone will stop them, and if not that then they are serious about it but masochists, as it takes a lot longer than you think doing it that way.
If someone was seriously trying to kill themselves with vein cutting, then it's quicker to slice yup and down the forearm.

I have a suicide in my close family as well, but I don't hate him for it.
You never know what happened to them - people have secrets even to those they are closest to. In my case, there was plenty incentive, though I still think he should have chosen a different way out. It may appear selfish, but I think that in many cases, something just snaps inside their brain - the cannot empathise or connect to the world anymore... it's sheer despair to which there's only one way out. We don't know enough of the human psyche to be able to really tell what's going on inside a person's head.
Of course I felt anger as well, but a lot of the people who REALLY want to die are just too far gone to be able to make clear judgements, and in that respect I don't feel I can blame them for their act.

Not completely true, though part of it is.
Self mutilation has, in most cases, nothing to do with attempted suicide and should be seen apart from it. It's often a way to transform mental pain into physical pain, has a calming effect on the patient lots of times. It's not always a call for attention, more of a safety valve. Lots of people are actually ashamed of their scars, and of doing it, so it's really something different than suicide attempts. But I agree that if someone tries to commit suicide by slashing their wrists, they're either very uninformed or not serious about it, as it's very difficult to succeed at killing yourself that way.

just for the record wsith self-mutilation there is a woman at work who does indeed break her arm or whatever on occasion. There is indeed a strong suspicion it's self inflicted as it's happened several times since her divorce

Oh no, you are right about self-harm, I know about that too, but there are cases of people wrist slitting, hoping for attention, as in thinking some one will stop them and take them to hospital or something.
For example, there was this one case (although not wrist slitting) of this rather insecure woman who was desperate for her husbands full attention, and every so often tried to kill herself knowing she would be stopped, but the last time she arrnaged with a friend to do the exhaust pipe trick, but something went wrong and she ended up actually dying.

Actually, Talthyr, if you slice deeply enough, the radial and ulnar artery are right there at the wrist, and it is the easiest place to get them. We often use that place to put arterial cathers in. You are right, they are small arteries, but they will do the job. as my ex-patient proved. She had fired me before that, thank God, mostly for refusing to give her narcotics. ;)

My opinion is that people who are really serious about commiting suicide will, no matter what you do. Anything else, anything that can be talked out of is merely a "cry for help" or attention seeking. As I say, that's just my opinion...

Hmm, when I have a bad period I just come here and piss people off (usually Dundee Slaytern on the BG forums [img]tongue.gif[/img] )
I have had a few friends commit suicide and since several had really wretched lives, I felt it was okay. It's a different sort of grief when you feel it's okay for someone who has committed suicide and, say, a friend run over by a car.
One of my friends overdosed on heroin. Her life had been completly screwed so I never blamed her, y'know?

But why?
Cause things doesn't always pick up. And I'm not talking about teenage angst or temporary depresses, I'm talking about people who are tired of living, and has given it plenty of thought.
Why can't we see it as the solution to ending misery that it is?
Why do we do everything we can to keep them suffering?</font>[/QUOTE]Because human life is worth something, If you really wish to "cash in your chips" there's not a damn thing anyone can do to stop it, but that is no excuse for not trying to stop it.

But why?
Cause things doesn't always pick up. And I'm not talking about teenage angst or temporary depresses, I'm talking about people who are tired of living, and has given it plenty of thought.
Why can't we see it as the solution to ending misery that it is?
Why do we do everything we can to keep them suffering?</font>[/QUOTE]Well how do you know whether the person is just suffering from 'temporary depression' and if given conselling can come around, or this other sort where we shouldn't help them because death is the best option without talking to them and trying to help? A lot of people who have attempted or considered suicide but don't manage to actually do it end up being glad they didn't because from help and counselling or just their own epiphany they get a new perspective on life. Most of them probably thought it through carefully and at the time felt that they were tired of living and that continuing would be far worse than ending it. No one tries to commit suicide seriously (as opposed to just doing it for attention) if they don't feel that life isn't worth living or that death would be anything but a relief. But given proper support most people can go on to have productive happy lives and realise death wasn't the answer. Yet because they were really serious at the time we shouldn't try to help them?

Well i think people should be stopped from comitting suicides in emotional disorders as they might get overwhelmed by a certain emotion and lose control over themselves, so you cant really blame them for doing it, although it should be stopped and some sense of reality should be smacked into the individual !

Why do we bother to get upset over people who commit suicide? If you want to do it , then you put on your thinking cap , pick a method and go onward into urban legend. Who cares what the laws say or what "God" thinks. A fat lot of good society and "God" are doing you when it is just you and the shot gun.Besides if "God" if as forgiving as all the hucksters claim the he/she will understand.

Now, ATTEMPTED suicides realy just aggravate me. They are just pathetic. People who are like "look at how tormented my existence is, I want to die ! booo hooo hooo !" should all just grow up and get on with it.Youve got problems , SO WHAT!! Life is rough, bad things happen, people cheat,lie,die,leave,backstab,hurt,destroy, and degrade each other on a daily basis.Either grow a spine and deal with it or kill yourself for real and stop wasteing everyones time.