Well, if not, I'll use this thread as a base for alien discussion, which does tie into it all. Here's the go of it. There are 200000000000 Stars in the Galaxy, most of them have more than one planet orbiting them, our's has 8 (if you count Pluto), so, we'll try an average of 1000000000000 planets in this Galaxy (all the systems would need 5 planets, not that much, any system could handle it). And use that as the middle ground for the minimum of 1000000000000 galaxies. That's 100000000000000000000000, or, 1 septillion. At a rate of 1 sentient race per 1000000000 planets, that's 1000000000000000 sentient races as an overstatement. This is in the whole universe. The likelyhoods in this rather overstated estimate, while exaggerated, still hold acceptible merits, we can safely assert that somewhere, there has been at least 1 race that has acheived equal intelligence to ours.

God! I hope there isn't one that developed an intelligence like ours. Based on the stats it's likely there is some form of life, and that lifeform is aware of itself.

Any particular reason why we "wouldn't" count Pluto?

Mark

Is this a religious topic? In what way? plz explain... :confused:

Any particular reason why we "wouldn't" count Pluto? Some astronomers consider Pluto an asteroid and not a planet. Or a part of the Oort cloud.

Mark</font>[/QUOTE]

Wow, I didn't know that, I've been out of school for too long, I think! ;)

Mark

Or a cartoon dog. :D :D

[quote]Originally posted by Arvon:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by skywalker:
[qb]

Quote:

Originally posted by Oblivion437: [qb]our's has 8 (if you count Pluto)

Any particular reason why we "wouldn't" count Pluto? Some astronomers consider Pluto an asteroid and not a planet. Or a part of the Oort cloud.

Another point is the moon of Pluto is nearly as big as the primary. It's called Chiron (I think).

Man The Quoting System On This Page Has Really Screwed [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well I Derfinatly Think Life Exsists, But Why Is That Religious?

I thought the Bible mentioned God creating man. Dioesn't say he didn't zap a few other races into existence too

Don't we have 9 planets including Pluto????

[ 07-23-2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Sir Goulum ]

Don't we have 9 planets including Pluto????</font>[/QUOTE]Yes
1 Mercury
2 Venus
3 Earth
4 Mars
5 Jupiter
6 Saturn
7 Uranus
8 Neptune
9 Pluto - with its moon Charon

Just to set the record straight

P.S. I also believe that there is intelligent life somewhere out there.

The bigger question is whether there is intelligent life here on Earth! :D

Mark

Don't we have 9 planets including Pluto????</font>[/QUOTE]Correct.

Now, back on topic.

Probability of Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life existing : unity
Probability of Extraterrestrial Intelligent Life existing at a point in space/time close enough for us to contract them : Zero

These figures are an approximation and are only correct out to a few dozen decimals.

@Skywalker - there are at least two intelligent life forms on Earth. Dolphins take second place. Mice take first. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Is there life out there: Hell yes, how can there not be?
Intelligent Life: Probably, but the only alien here is Johnny, and well...judge for yourself. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="plum">And to answer <font color="palegreen">Willow's</font> question, this is where the "Religion" aspect comes in.

The Bible does indeed say that God created Man. He also created every other living creature and/or organism on Earth (again, according to the Bible). But Man was the only creature made in God's own image. Therefore, Man was set above the other creatures.

How is this relevant to the discussion? Because many Christians feel that we are the ONLY intelligent life created by God, but atheists point out (as <font color="silver">Oblivion</font>) that the sheer number of planets in the universe make this stance practically impossible. Given the statistics quoted by <font color="silver">Oblivion</font>, intelligent life would HAVE to exist on at least SOME of the planets just by virtue of random luck.

Personally, I firmly believe that Mankind is - indeed - created in God's image and that sets us apart from the rest of the creatures here on Earth, but I also acknowledge that we may not be His ONLY Creations to have such status.

As for the random likelihood of intelligent life....I agree it is very likely (even though Statistical Mathematics is a creation of man, not God). EVERY creature on our own planet is "intelligent". Animals of all different orders form their own societal heirarchy, show evidence of problem solving skills, have a strong instinct for survival, and can adapt theirs skills and "mutate" thier young to increase their chances of survival within their given environment.

I believe that this level of intelligent life could very well exist on many other planets.

Do these planets have a "dominant species" that has risen above the rest? If so, were they "created" by our God, or another diety of cosmic power?

Good questions that are entertaining to speculate, but so far, impossible to prove.</font>

Astronomical stastics aside, the best evidence of life beyond Earth is right here on Earth.

Take the evidence ancient Sumeria left for us, or the ancient Dogon tribe in Africa with their detailed charts of the Solar system and star systems. The Dogon were "discovered" by the western world in the early 1900's and still flourish as a society today. They knew about pluto and the large asteroids well before "civilization" did. And what about the skywalkers of Native american lore? Worldwide some of our ancestors seemed to know more about "extraterrestrials" than we could hope to find out with all our wonders of technology.

So much information and we dont need the hubble telescope to look for it, these days we can use a mere internet search engine.

Though, it is compelling to ponder all those other planets and the possibilities the sheer number of them implies. Good for the imagination, heh?

AAAAARRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH! STATISTICS ARE PROOF NOW!?
Anyway, now that I've got that out of my system, I don't believe that their is other intelligent life out there. As said in the Bible we are Gods creation, so the only intelligent life in infintiy is people, angels and God (also spirits, demons and other nasties.)
I refuse to put my faith in science 'cause science and prove that you can tie a elephants tail to a daisy and hang it off a cliff and the elephant won't fall. And science can't attually prove that bee's can fly.

[ 07-23-2002, 07:49 PM: Message edited by: Evil Al ]

I would challenge those "figures" of the odds.

For starters there is the huge variable of a creator or not. I would presume there to be two sets of "odds". A much greater likelihood with a creator, and an extreme unlikeliness without.

Have these "odds" taken into account the countering twenty kazillion to one odds of life developing by chance in a warm pond for example?

I personally believe such speculation fruitless and pointless. It's remarkable to me that a poster who finds belief in a creator/artist ludicrous - though we're surrounded by four dimensional art - yet has belief in extra-terrestrial intelligent life, based on ridiculously theoretical odds and the speculations of astronomers recording the lengths of shimmers in far distant stars.

I mean give me a break.

I have no opinion on whether there is life on other worlds or not. I don't need there to be because I don't believe humanity is alone anyway. Many "alien-believers" I've met, have a near religious conviction based on fear of us being alone.

Secondly I prefer evidence I can sense myself, not bizzarre speculations from technogurus in need of funding. ;)

There may be, there may not be. It's not going to affect my life either way, unless "they" initiate contact.

And who's to say "they" are able to or want to?

On the contrary God does affect my life every day, and has bent over backwards to initiate contact. [img]smile.gif[/img] ;)

[ 07-23-2002, 07:52 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Granted. Fair enough G'kar. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If you're gonna quote statistics, then I'll quote (or nearly) Douglas Adams:

The universe
Area - Infinite
Population - None. It is widely known that there are an infinite number of worlds, but that not every one of them is inhabited, therfore there must be a finite number of inhabited worlds. Any number devided by infinity is as close to 0 as makes no odds, and if every planet in the universe has a population of zero, the population of the universe must equal zero. This means that any people you do happen to meet are merely the products of a deranged imagination...

Did this poster say belief in God was ludicrous in a different thread cause I dont see anything like that here....As Sazerac said dont stir up old dog poop ;)

Is there life out there.............i hope so i think it would be good to make contact with another civilization to see how similar they are to ourselves...in things such as looks ldeologies morals and so on......

i feel that any person who says there can't be life out there because god didn't put it in the bible or whatever needs to remember that it was man who wrote the bible not god.

i also feel that if beliving in extra terrestrials is so ridiculous then so is beliving in god....a being who created the world in six days???????...........i mean give me a break.

i love fantasy books i love tolkien and so on and thats what i feel the bible is a great set of stories in fact lets face it its an epic....tolkien could never have writen somthing with such scope. unfortunatly people have taken it a bit too seriously.. i don't feel the need to belive in a god be it christian or moslem etc....i find that these religious books are fantastic stories....also set out good lesons on how to live your life...if you want to....i feel that when i die there will be nothing and when you think about it why is that scarey?...i mean you are not going to know any diff anyway are you?

To look at Oblivion's very first question, are religious topics not taboo? Well, as far as I understand the stance of the moderators here at IW, no. They're not taboo. They're just liable to be highly provocative, whereupon we're asked to engage in discussions of this nature with a good measure of maturity and restraint. Mutual appreciation would probably be a bit too much to expect of us for now...

As for the question whether there's intelligent life on other planets in other solar systems and galaxies, I'd say the sheer statistics alone make it the height of presumptiousness on our part to think we're the only species that can write poetry and invent things like computers. Why can't there be other species that can do the same or even better? If science cannot prove the existence of such species, at the same time neither can it disprove it.

Coming to whether the existence of such species would constitute a challenge to our religious beliefs, my answer would be that it depends on what your religious beliefs are. My religious beliefs are fully open to the possibility of intelligent alien life, but I am opting to remain silent about my beliefs as I have no wish to provoke anyone. :rolleyes:

BTW, it will be interesting to explore the question what sort of religious beliefs intelligent aliens will have. Any ideas? ;)

LOL, Skywalker! :D

[ 07-23-2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]

Well Elric, I believe God made the earth in six days. Day meaning "period of time". That could mean anything from a fraction of a second to a million years. With that cleared up, how is it so hard to believe? Do you really think we are the highest force at work on the earth?
I too love Tolkien's writing. But he doesn't compare to the bible because the Bible is the truth... The One Truth!

Pastor Al

[ 07-23-2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: Evil Al ]

Al, the Bible is not absolute truth. Not every religion believes in the whole Chrstian Bible, and in fact only about 30% of the world population does according to what I've seen. It's allegedly second-hand, so mistranslations and interpretations are open, plus you can't possibly believe that ALL those monks had perfect handwriting or sight, can you? Plus, why is anyone comparing Tolkien and the Bible? They're two completely different genres, fantasy and general fiction.

Yes I truly beileve that the Bible is one hundred per cent true. I don't expect everyone to believe in it. All I expect is people to listen and not heckle.
I don't believe its second hand at all. My aunt who's a Methodist minister has learned the languages of the original texts and read them. In traslation they mean the same thing as the NIV (new international version).
But as I have said to Elric, i will not preach to you anymore and just pray for your salvation.

Pastor Al.

Generally, when people disagree with something they don't just sit there and shut up, they usually say something.
Now, the original texts. Those would be the original ones straight from God's hands and hot out of the oven, right?
But what if I don't want your prayers of salvation? Wait, if I don't believe in something, how could any effort to get that power to contact me do anything?

I will pray to Allah for your salvation you heathen christian. I know you live a good life but you dont believe in Allah and you will burn in hell. Its just the way the cookie crumbles.

Sephy - what's that anti-flag thingy sig you have there? You think that is a good idea? You might offend some people with it I am thinking.

Anti-flag is the name of my favorite punk rock band. They have a great message, and it's not Anti-America, instead they mean this: "Anti-Flag does not mean Anti-American. Anti-Flag means anti-war. Anti-Flag means the common people of the world are better off living in unity and peace. Anti-Flag means to stand against corporate greed that hurts millions while benefitting a handful of extremely rich. Anti-Flag means to fight against mindless nationalism. Anti-Flag means unity."

Have you been contacted by the celestials lately?

Let's discuss the infallible bible, shall we?

1) Do you believe in the use of contraception (condoms, birth control, etc, excluding abortion)? If you try to sidestep the question and say "abstain" you're an oaf. Simply yes, or no. Do you believe that preventing conception is a good thing?

Answer that, and we'll move onto issue #2.

You have my unequivical support.

And to even more off-topic...

People tend to confuse wanting a better goverment with being anti-goverment. Fortunatley punk rock has always been on the front-lines of exposing the immorality of the goverment and the people that populate it.

By immorrality, I am not talking about boinking interns in the oval office(not immoral in MY book), but about corporate greed and influence that pervades our political system, particularly the military industrial complex that is a big cash cow for a select few industries during wartime. War means profits for big pigs and proliferates the idea that being antiwar ( or violence and death) is unpatriotic.

For example when we attack Iraq, it will be to secure resources and more defense funding and military employment for citizens. Otherwise we could tackle Saddam covertly seeing how he is the problem, but that wouldnt be profitable. Alas we will probably attack Iraq, fail to get Saddam(again) and Bush will be voted out (again). We could get stuck in a endless bush timeloop!!!! ;)

Wow, I can smell the tension building on this thread!!

Where is one of those wise...

"How to have a mature discussion and respect for other peoples beliefs and opinions even if you disagree"

...threads, so things dont "Go There" if you catch my drift.

Please, I'll respect anyone's beliefs as far as you keep them yours when you share them and let me have mine. Thats fair right?.

The thought of being told "I wont talk to you anymore, but I'll pray for your salvation" is one that would lead me to support a continued moratorium on the topic of religion here. I come here to read and share ideas and laughs, not to be belittled or preached too.

Ultimately my opinion is relatively small and I think I'll just go play NWN and get off the serious tip.

Peace.

<font color="plum"><font color="gray">Shadowstrider</font>,

If you disagree with the Bible, that is fine. You have every right to do so. However, please try to be a bit more respectful in your disagreement.

Has <font color="yellow">Evil Al</font> been contacted by celestials lately? NO, he believes in God, not celestials. And I'm quite sure he HAS been in contact with God.

I am also a Christian who believes in the infallible Bible. Celestials don't provide our understanding.....GOD DOES! That doesn't work for you....that's not a problem. I respect your view. Please do the same for ours.

Secondly, if you want to question the Bible, that's fine too. But you make a pre-emptive strike and insult <font color="yellow">Al</font> before he even has a chance to respond.

Calling somebody an "oaf" before you even hear their answer is just plain rude.

<font color="lime">I will be happy to answer your question under 2 conditions.

1) That you disagree in a respectful manner. If you don't accept the answer I give, that's fine. I won't try to "prove I'm right". I will simply answer the question based on my faith.

2) But before ANY of that can be done, the MODS have to give the OK. There is currently a moratorium on religious discussions because of the type of comments we are already seeing in this thread.</font>

I have sent an e-mail to one of the Moderators asking if the moratorium may be lifted. When it is....I plan to start a thread that will address these very issues. It will be an open discussion forum for non-beleivers to ask questions about the supposed inconsistencies in the Bible and other faith-based issues.

I hope to be able to start that soon, but it's best to avoid the subject as much as possible until the MODS grant their approval.

<font color="yellow">Evil Al</font> - well, you sure fooled me brother. I wouldn't have expected you to be a Christian with that ID....then again, mine isn't much better.

I didn't mean to "step on your toes" here. I'm sure you're quite capable of addressing <font color="gray">Shadowstriders</font> question...but I felt it best to remind EVERYONE that the MODS haven't approved a renewal of these discussion yet.

<font color="yellow">Oh, one last thing. <font color="orange">Sephorith</font>, You don't have to believe in God for a prayer offered on your behalf to work. God just has to believe in you.....and HE DOES!</font></font>

In the bible it also speaks of a "spinning wheel" in the sky that is of another terestrial oragin at one point, just as well as Unicorns and other such things...

SSJ4Sephiroth, I believe it should be noted that this is your opinion only and not fact. In the opinion of most Christians, the Bible is absolute truth.
Also you are displaying ignorance in labeling the Bible 'general fiction'. There are many aspects of it that require faith in it's message in order to believe it, but you can't deny that much of it is an historical record, proven against the most stringent of methods.

/)eathKiller, I'm not sure what you are speaking of here...Do you mean Ezekiel's vision ? Or are there other references? Could you please elaborate on this?

Back on topic:

I have to agree with oblivion if the numbers he quotes are correct. Given the sheer number of planets in the universe and given its infinite dimensions it would be ignorant to discount the posibility of other life on another planet. Scientists have found fossilized bacteria in rock samples taken from the moon and meteorites that have fallen to earth. If there is bacteria out there then there is also the posibility for other things.

As for the mini bible discussion that erupted all I can say is that everyone both for and against it should try to not force their views on other people. If person "A" believes and person"B" doesnt they should each only post once and not repeatedly try to convince each other that the other is wrong. Defenately dont offer prayers. That is both insulting and imposing yourself upon another persons belief system. My own views on the bible are that they are a collection of stories that can help you to live a certain way. Kind of like a primitive self help book. If it gets you through life and keeps you happy then by all means enjoy you happieness and dont let anyone sway you from your path.Personaly I cant place the faith of any absolute truth in any book written 2 thousand years ago at the earliest by a bunch of savages barely out of the stone age. That view also extends to the Quran,the Torah, the Tao,Wicca and just about every other organization that claims to have the monopoly on absolute truth.

That was pretty respectful from me. I am not big on "let's keep a smile on our face no matter what the situation." If I disagree(and I am not saying I do, but IF I do) I will bring facts in. If it comes across as condescending, disrespectful or rude... Report it to a mod, and let them ban me. ;)

It must be a one-way call. I have never heard of anyone coming into contact with god. I have seen people see "his work" though, but I have never heard anyone say they saw HIM(or her?) in the act. Thus your placing this all in faith. Faith is not infallible.

So YOU have personally spoken with God and heard his reply in english(or your 1st language)? If so, I would like to shake your hand.

Where the hell did I call him an "oaf?" Where the hell did I insult him? I said IF he sidestepped the issue he is an oaf. By dictionary definition an oaf is:

A person regarded as stupid or clumsy

He would be quite clumsy to try and sidestep a simple answer wouldn't he? Afterall simple answers, more often then not, cause less contradictions.

I will not give into your demands, even if they were "eat this slice of delicious cake, and drink this warm milk." I believe in freedom. If I am out of line, the moderators are more then welcome to warn and/or ban me. This is THEIR property afterall, thus I have no freedom of speach here. So if they want me gone, I'll leave, untill then I will act as I do everywhere else. Is that fine with you? If not, you're free to not answer.

Respect is a subjective term. Where I am from all disagreements are respectful. If one disagrees and takes offense, it's a shame, but it happens.

Well the mods have free reign to silence this discussion.

I have read the bible 3 times on my own, and extra bits when I once went to church. Likewise I have read the Qur'an 2 times. I know theologics pretty well.

I'll be waiting...Or perhaps we could take it to the BIS forums which are intended for this type of discussion?

I take offense to people wanting to plead on my behalf. That would be like people offering up my plea in court for me...after all doesn't judgement come to us all according to the bible?