Police in the UK have foiled another terror plot. Seemingly the plan was to capture a member of the UK armed forces and behead him live on the internet.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/6315989.stm

The news is still breaking, but credit must go to the the police for stopping yet another islamfacist terror plot.

Indeed, it is good news that they have stopped this, if everything was executed more flawlessly than some of their previous anti-terror actions.

Still, as suitable as the world "Islamofascist" is(They are follows of Islam and they seem to have a fascist bent.) I just dislike the use of such words. It's very inflammatory and just a tiny bit exaggerated, at least in my opinion.

I read about this this morning, somewhere, but was looking for something else, or at something else...Nice to know one life has been saved. If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, in all likelyhood, it's not a chicken.

It's opinions like that the bolster the Islamofascists. We're too soft and forgiving, and their hard as nails society preys upon that.

How about Muslim Retards? Or simply Islamotards?

We are too open, accepting, and forgiving of these intolerant societies and their retarded miscreants.

The problem in Europe is growing day by day, i wonder how long it will take before people here open their eyes and recognize the threat that is staring them right in the face.

Let's try and ease up a bit on the namecalling, it doesn't really add to the quality of the discussion. I'm ok with using the term Islamofascists, because these guys are using a fascist ideology cloaked in religion. From what I can see it is a factually correct appellation for those particular radical groups. But Muslim retards or whatever is pretty immature, playground stuff. I'd hope we could elevate ourselves above that in discussion.

I posted about this at the cricket and football forum I moderate (ESPNSTAR.com - we have no religious moratorium as people there are able to carry on with discussions and disagreements with no hard feelings and don't feel like they have to play the "get the last word" game or "who can diss the other the most" even though they're on average 16-30 years old :D ).

I'll try and post my thoughts here without getting into detail about Islam, so as not to violate our moratorium. In my opinion it's because the religion of Islam has been hijacked by fanatical mullahs, many of who don't really have any formal religious training other than what they gave themselves (as Islam has no clergy). People like this guy Abu Hamza, who until recently ran the North Finsbury mosque in London until he was deported for hate crimes:

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...amza_pa203.jpg

You know what this guy used to be? He used to be a nightclub bouncer, for goodness sakes. But because he's charismatic and seen as being "cool" and sticking it up the hierarchy and talks about cool stuff like jihad and holy war and all the rest of it, he influences heaps of young people, many of whom are already disaffected and disassociated because they aren't integrated (particularly in many parts of Europe). Because there are no formal clergy or clergy structure in Islam, anybody can be a mullah or expert on Islam - just make sure you have a real loud voice. Other examples? Omar Bakri Mohammed, Omar Brooks and Anjem Choudary.

I repeat that the problem with Islam is that MAINSTREAM Muslims (especially the mainstream mullahs) choose to disown these people rather than engaging them and refuting the rubbish they're spouting. By closing their eyes to the problem and saying "it's not a Muslim problem because these people aren't Muslim", they are helping to propagate these radical extremist ideas.

[ 02-01-2007, 07:14 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

That was an intresting post Memnoch, I never knew that there was no formal clergy structure in Islam. I too prefer the Islamofascists term both for the reasons you gave and it also helps differ from normal muslims who are suffering because of this evil crap.

If I converted to Islam tomorrow, I could study the Quran and call myself a mullah - nobody has to make me one. I could go to a mosque and start preaching if I wanted to. It's very informal - particularly in those uneducated and illiterate tribal areas of Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of the Middle East. In those areas often the bloke with the loudest voice, the longest beard and the most charisma will end up being the "mullah".

In Europe, they tend to be the radicals with the loudest voices and the ones with a cult of personality. Because the moderates tend to be quiet, because, well, that's what they see Islam as being - quiet, peaceful and non-confrontational. This is what I mean when I say that Islam is being hijacked by a fascist minority.

IT's been interesting having discussions about this with Muslims at that cricket and football site, because I've had the opportunity to speak to mainstream Muslims and solicit their views on how they feel about this minority who are hijacking their religion. It was the first time that I had had the opportunity to speak to Muslims about these issues (I didn't know too many in OZ). Plus I've gotten to meet a few at school and we've had some interesting debates.

Funny thing is, I've taken Timber's persona and have challenged them pretty strongly on a number of key beliefs on their religion, as well as the whole societal impact, and they've been pretty patient in helping me understand their perspectives. I wouldn't quite characterise these particular individuals as Muslim-retards, but that's just me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-01-2007, 03:27 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Could't it be that the reason why the "moderate" clerics don't condemn the loud ones is that they quietly agree with them, at least to some extend ?

Research learns that an awful lot of the muslims in Europe would welcome a life under Sharia rule, which goes directly against everything we in the west stand for. You can only wonder why on earth they would come and live amongst such a "godforsaken" people such as us western infidels. Seems to me that they are completely out of place here. Would it be weird if i say that "Apartheid" wasn't such a bad thing after all ?

It would be weird to say that apartheid is a good thing, I think, after the world fought so hard to eradicate it in South Africa.

As for your first question, I can only speak from my own personal experience - your experience may be different. Personally, I don't see the point in putting all Muslims in the same basket - that's generalising and is no better than what some of these fanatical mullahs are going by generalising Westerners. I prefer to judge each person as an individual, whatever their religion is - but that's just me. I haven't had the experiences with Muslims that you might have had, which is why I'm a bit more chilled out.

My understanding is that most of these are the young (16-to-24yos), European-born, 2nd-or-3rd-generation Muslims (usually male) who want to live under sharia - 1 in 8 in the UK according to some poll. Their parents (and in some cases grandparents) feel more attuned to life in the West than they do.

Angry young men, basically.

[ 02-01-2007, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

Seems to me their parents aren't doing a very good job then.

I hope your right and I hope those mainstream muslims fix this problem.

Btw...i don't see what's so charismatic about the guy in the picture, my ass looks cuter than his face. He has a spooky eye, a hook for a hand, and his beard looks like a bunch of rats feast on it every time he goes to sleep, not exactly my idea of charisma.

If i had a kid son, and he was being naughty, i'd pull out a picture of this guy, and tell him if he doesn't play nice, this creature is going to get him in in his sleep, i'm sure it would work too.

"WHAAAAAA....PLEASE DADDY DON'T LET THE HAIRY MONSTER GET ME" ....

Then shut your piehole and get your daddy a beer, and you'll be just fine. :D

Actually it looks like he's about to say BRAINS, I WANT TO EAT THE TASTY BRAAAAAAINS.

..or, If I only had a brain, do do dee do dee dee do.

Edit: That's bad, the Wizard of Oz reference from a guy from Kansas...


I don't know Dorothy.

[ 02-01-2007, 07:51 PM: Message edited by: robertthebard ]

I hope your right and I hope those mainstream muslims fix this problem. </font>[/QUOTE]The biggest challenges are:

a ) getting them to acknowledge that it is THEIR problem - non-Muslims cannot fix it

b ) getting them mobilised at the high levels (eg the Islamic Council of Britain, etc) to stamp out these terrorists in their midst who are using their children as human bombs

The more I think about this and talk about this, it's really starting to become clear to me that this is a MUSLIM problem as much as a world problem. I've learned that the "laager mentality" (to use an Afrikaner term) is one of the most important things in Islam - stand behind your fellow Muslim brothers no matter what and all that. But I really think that moderate Muslims need to take a stand against these extremists, not just in words but in deeds. Because this is the biggest challenge facing their religion today - it is being usurped by a group of fascists who are using the blind devotion of the young for their own evil ends.

And not just against the footsoldiers in this extremist, fundamentalist movement, but against the causes - the radical mullahs and leaders who spout hate and encourage these things to happen. This radical minority is painting an extremely negative picture of Islam in general, and this probably isn't fair on the majority of moderate Muslims. But it's up to the Muslim community to rein these people in - they have to take responsibility, because these people (Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri Mohd, etc) are using their religion to make the whole world think that Muslims are terrorists.

And you will note that while they are all too eager to preach holy war, none of these "fanatical mullahs" are actually willing to strap a bomb around their fat, well-fed bodies - it's always some young Muslims who who end up doing the deed.

And the scary part is that these extremists are winning the battle of hearts and minds, because they have a long list of "pressure points" they can use when they harangue the West - Iraq is just the latest example.

[ 02-02-2007, 03:54 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

SO agree Memnoch [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

What is needed is a huge march or mass meeting in London. 30,000 or more all muslims, organised by muslims so the public of the UK can see that mainstream Islamists really do reject this fascist ideology.

this is not a problem that non muslims can cure.

It's that bloody Youtube and MySpace generation mate - they'll listen to anyone before they'll listen to their parents. :D

They aren't any different than any other generation. All teens think they know more than their parents. Some are just more dangerous than others.

"They have no alternative message. There is no active missionary work among the youth telling them, do not become jihadis. They do not use media means as much as the jihadis. They simply — they’re reactive and they don’t seem to be able to compete with the jihadis. And every time there is a debate between a real jihadi and, say, what we have decided to call moderate Muslims, the jihadis win. Because they come with the Koran and quotes from the Koran. The come with quotes from the Hadith and the Sunnah, and the traditions of the prophet. And every assertion they make, whether it is that women should be veiled, or Jews should be killed, or Americans are our enemies, or any of that, they win. Because what they have to say is so consistent with what is written in the Koran and the Hadith. And what the moderates fail to do is to say, listen, that’s all in there, but that wasn’t meant for this context. And we have moved on. We can change the Koran, we can change the Hadith. That’s what’s missing."

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/04/we...in&oref=slogin

It's always a debate about context, Morguerat. Because anyone can spin something to make it support a particular point of view. You could do the same with the Bible (and we can't just exclude the Old Testament by saying that the New Testament is peace and love while the Old is violence - they're all part of the same Bible).

Islam has no formal clergy, which is an advantage as well as a disadvantage. It's an advantage because in theory there is nobody between you and God - it's all about how YOU interpret the message. None of that stuff like Dan Brown and other conspiracists allege happened to the Catholic Church - that parts were changed to suit the political needs of the early 1st to 3rd centuries, because there's no clergy or pope to get in the way.

It's also a disadvantage for the same reason - there is nobody between you and God. But we're not all born equal - some of us can read, some of us can't. And anyone can call themselves a mullah, as long as they have: 1) studied the Quran; 2) have a bit of charisma; and 3) have a really loud voice. Add to that some pressure points like Israel, Iraq, Kashmir and other areas where Muslims are being "oppressed" and you have a recipe for indoctrination via cult of personality.

Anyway, we're really moving into the whys and wherefores of religion now, which violates our moratorium. I'll have to cut it here - but if you're interested I invite you to read this thread on another site. I'm not trying to cross promote but from your previous posts where you've introduced this type of subject material I feel that you're just dying to talk about this stuff, so maybe you'll find it interesting (or maybe not - depends on whether or not your mind's made up already).

IIRC they tried that in Washington DC, the turn out was less than stellar, around 150 people showed up. I'll try and dig up a link...

Memnoch, You're right, it's very much a cult of personality with imams, much like Jewish rabbis the congregation can remove you if they object to your teachings, but as you said if you're charismatic and seem to have a knowledge of what you're spouting you won't (usually) be stopped from preaching. (I'll definitely check the article when I have some spare time)

[ 02-07-2007, 11:17 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

Memnoch, sent you a PM.

I know it's a very long article :D - I myself don't know what's in the middle part of it.