Controversial drawings of the Muslim prophet Mohammed published last autumn by a Danish newspaper have led the EU into a spat with parts of the Muslim world, with gunmen gathering before the Union's Gaza headquarters on Monday.

The caricatures, picturing the Prophet as seen by twelve Danish cartoonists, also made it on to the agenda of EU foreign ministers meeting in Brussels on Monday (30 January).

On Monday morning, some ten masked men armed with grenade launchers and assault rifles gathered outside the EU office where they fired their arms in the air.

"We warn the citizens of the above-mentioned governments to take this warning seriously because our groups are ready to implement it across the Gaza Strip," one of the gunmen read out from a prepared statement, before burning Norwegian and Danish flags in the street.

On the same day, a fax sent to the Swedish consulate in Jerusalem accused the governments of both Denmark and Sweden of denigrating the prophet.

In the fax members of the al-Aqsa brigades claim that "the Danes and the Swedish, protected by their government, have put up posters insulting the prophet Mohammed."

"Within 48 hours, all Danes and Swedes must have left Palestinian ground, or else..." read the fax.

A European issue
Austrian foreign minister Ursula Plassnik said after the foreign ministers gathering in Brussels, that the EU "strongly rejects" these threats.

"We have expressed a spirit of solidarity with our northern colleagues, as well as our belief and attachment to the freedom of press and the freedom of expression as part of our fundamental values, and the freedom of religious beliefs," she said, adding that she hoped that the matter would be solved through "dialogue between the involved parties".

The Danish foreign minister Per Stig Moller said he is "satisfied with the reaction from colleagues as expressed by Ms Plassnik."

His Estonian counterpart Urmas Paet, told Danish media, that the case had become a European case.

"This is no longer a Danish case. It can hit us all, and may have far-going consequences for the relationship between Europe and the Muslim world. Therefore, we must seek to prevent it from escalating."

French foreign minister Philippe Douste-Blazy announced that "You can never put question marks around the freedom of speech in any European country, and therefore we have all declared our solidarity with the Danes."

EU foreign policy chief Javier Solana also repudiated the threats, but underlined that the EU had never aimed at demonising Muslims.

Denmark will not interfere with press
It was in September that Danish daily newspaper Jyllands-Posten published drawings of the prophet Mohammed, as "a test of whether fear of Islamic retribution has begun to limit freedom of expression in Denmark."

In an act of support on freedom of speech - and of Jyllands-Posten - the Norwegian weekly Magazinet earlier this month published the same drawings, causing immediate annoyance among Muslim groups in Norway.

In one of the drawings, the prophet Mohammed appears with a turban shaped like a bomb with a burning fuse strapped to his head.

The caricatures have caused outrage in Muslim communities around the world, with Islamic countries and Turkey calling upon the Danish prime minister Anders Fogh Rasmussen to offer an official apology, as the Koran forbids all visual depictions of the prophet.

But Mr Rasmussen has persistently said that freedom of expression is the very foundation of Danish democracy and that his government has no means of influencing the press.

A spokesman for the European commission on Monday backed this stance.

"A public debate on the pros and cons of the views expressed is the right form of reaction in a democratic and pluralistic society, and pressure not to exercise these freedoms is unacceptable," he said.

Justice commissioner Franco Frattini in December however described the publication of the cartoons as "thoughtless and inappropriate", saying the cartoons fomented hostility against Islam and foreigners.

Food boycott against Denmark may make it to WTO
Hamas, which won the Palestinian elections last week, has urged Islamic countries to take "deterrent steps against idiotic Danish behaviour".

"We call on Muslim nations to boycott all Danish products because the Danish people supported the hateful racism under the pretext of freedom of expression," the group said in a statement.

Earlier this week, Saudi Arabia recalled its ambassador from Denmark and Saudi religious leaders have urged a boycott of Danish products.

The move made EU trade commissioner Peter Mandelson raise a warning finger against governments who deliberately create a situation where EU goods are faced with unfair treatment.

At a meeting with a Saudi minister in the Swiss mountain resort of Davos on Sunday, Mr Mandelson urged the minister to "convey the seriousness of this issue to his government," his spokesman said.

"Any boycott of Danish goods would be seen as a boycott of European goods," Mr Mandelson's spokesman said, adding that if any government was proven to have supported a boycot of EU goods, he would be forced to bring the case up before the WTO.

(Source: EUObserver)

Ah, I love to see the tolerant and gentle side of Islam displayed for the world to see.

I'm with ya, Sham.

Always good to know [img]smile.gif[/img]

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...gaza-ap203.jpg

I mean what on earth are Palestinians doing burning the Danish flag?!

With death threats, recalls of ambassadors, boycotts of Danish firms (resulting in 100 layoffs) sometimes I really wonder why I bother trying to defend Islam all the time. :rolleyes:

It's a bloody cartoon and if they don't 'get' the sanctity of freedom of expression then frankly they will never 'get' the West and thus will never integrate successfully.

I'm just annoyed that all reference to this has vanished from the BBC front page not long after it went up. Obviously not politically-correct reading.

Still, at least the UK government just got a kicking over the religious hatred law. Pretty funny too - the PM didn't bother voting in the second round and they lost by one vote :D Looks like our freedom of expression is a bit safer than it was yesterday. And once again, thank God for the House of Lords.

[ 01-31-2006, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

On the flip side of the coin, CNN.com has a great article today on the smashing success of the musical The Producers in Tel Aviv. For those of you who don't know, the plot is that a down-on-his-luck guy tries to make a flop of a broadway show, intending to steal money raised to make the show. The show's plot is all about Nazis and Hitler.

So, packed crowds in Tel Aviv are roiling with laughter as a goofy hitler and swastika-clad actors march around on stage listening to Wagner.

To me it is clear, any culture that has a mature sense of laughing at itself is absolutely superior.

Exactly. This Islam I'm seeing is primitive and barbaric, and quite frankly, isn't worth a damn, and I'd be quite happy to let them continue their pissant lives being destroyed by superior nations and cultures. I have muslim friends, and do they think of this? Quite simply, they agree with me.

In case anyone is wondering, here are the picture printed by Jyllands-Posten. They'll give an idea of what they're protesting against.

Linky no worky. :D

No biggie though, i've seen em on the news, and it was once again proof of ultimate narrowmindedness. The American flagshop owner will have a relative quiet period ahead, the Danish flagshop owner on the other hand has boomtime coming. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Well, the link worked when I added it. The server is down, I guess.

[ 02-01-2006, 09:46 AM: Message edited by: Stratos ]

Yes! My faith in European commitment to our most sacred traditions and rights is restored as papers across Europe print the cartoons in solidarity with the beleagured Danish.

Just wish there was at least one British one amongst them. This is a point that needs to be hammered home regardless of the offence caused IMO.

We may as well bring the issue to a head now in the hope that some attitudes can be changed. Half the problem with the uneasy process of integration is that both sides are too scared of causing offence to the other that none of the fundamental issues/incompatabilies ever actually get thrashed out.

On the offchance any MP's visit Ironworks, any chance of a Parliamentary question about this for next Wednesday? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-01-2006, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

You sure about that? Seems to me only one side really gives a damn about integrating.

About the boycott, I do have to wonder, how much do islamic countries buy Danish goods in the first place?

Apparently Denmark was exporting quite a lot of dairy products to the middle east, don't have any numbers though.

I used to want to see this as a conflict of cultures. I learned recently the flaws in that conception. Culture is used as a convenient reference to a group of people, or people who hold a certain belief, etc, which is fine as short-hand reference, but a useless concept if you want to talk about social reality. It's traditionally invoked as a result of power differentials. Only the poor or marginalized have a culture. We could make sense of this by asserting that a socially liberal society is doing something that's riling up a fundamentalist one, but then we'd be painting all members of both sides similarly. I would pity a society that's 100% fundamentalist, but I don't think that's ever the case (consider the harsh punishments such governments have to employ to keep order).

What I see here is bullies with an over-inflated sense of self importance making physical threats because their unchanging ideology was challenged in its righteousness by others. The pathology of their position is particularly evident in their response to words (or art, in a particularly harmless setting no less) with threats of violence. Unacceptable. Such people should be disarmed and ignored until they're ready to talk about their actual problems. Don't fool yourself into thinking that such members are representative. They might seem common in the media, but until angry fundamentalism is approaching 100% of a community, you have to look for other causes for the attitudes of these young men than religion or 'culture' because this is an incomplete and offensive characature itself, particularly given the different iterations of Islam and Middle Eastern diaspora communities around the world. Note that governments making a stink about this are doing so for political reasons, and they're sure as hell not popularly elected. I wonder how long it'll be before they quietly reinstall their diplomatic infrastructures.

I also see a top-down invocation of cultural inferiority, and I for one would stop myself before making such a claim. Even if you believe it, consider your position and theirs, and wonder about its validity.

Blimey, I'll have to think about that one!

Excuse my ignorance here, but is a society considered fundamentalist purely because of its stance on a particular issue (like religion) or does being fundamentalist mean something more specific about the makeup of a society in the same way that a word like 'republic' does?


Thought I'd include some email correspondence from one of my friends about this issue as he's normally got a good point or two to make.

----

Hehe, this is one of the rare issues we probably agree upon...
I doubt there will be any kind of meaningful dialogue about freedom of
expression etc., but I still think it's important to protect the right
of the press to publish such caricatures. Too bad that the Danish
newspaper has meanwhile apologized for printing the cartoons. If you
want to see some of them, follow this link and click on
"Bilderspezial" on the right hand side:
http://www.welt.de/data/2006/02/01/839513.html

Still, I wonder whether this episode really indicates that there
exists a fundamental cultural gulf between the Muslim world and the
West. Imagine what radical Evangelicals in the US (a country, let's
not forget, that was debating whether to make flag-burning illegal)
would do if, say, a French newspaper published cartoons ridiculing
Jesus. I think if opposing them on Iraq is enough to lead to a
boycott, then making fun of their religion, i.e. something they really
care about, could lead to an altogether more severe response!

Probably the difference, if there is one, is more one of degree, a
function of which societal groups hold relatively greater clout (after
all, not all Muslims are protesting this), how deeply freedom of
expression is enshrined in the political culture of the state, etc.
Never underestimate the force of history as it is embodied in a
country's institutions.

After all, it is not as if people in the West
somehow came to the world with an "Enlightenment" gene; given the
values they presently hold, if many Christians today were given the
task of writing their countries' constitutions, I don't think the
result would be that different from what many conservative Muslims are
aiming for...So thank God for America's civil religion and the worship
of its constitutional documents!


-----

[ 02-02-2006, 07:20 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

The server 'bombed'... [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

I wonder how the christian world would react if someone draw a cartoon of jesus naked and rubbing backs with young boys?

Well, not in a mannner like they did, i can tell you that much. I am a Christian, be it only in name, as are most of my friends, and neither me or them couldn't care less if you set the bible on fire right in front of our eyes. The only reaction you'd probably get, is "what a nutjob".

I'm sure the Vatican would object and so would some die hard Roman Catholics, but they wouldn't go protesting in the streets, shooting in the air with kalashnikovs, and making death threats towards pretty much everything Islamic. You see...we here have minds of our own, we don't blindly obey our religeous leaders. Hell...i don't obey any leaders for that matter. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

Kakero, I think you're missing one fundamental fact, it has happened already. There was a play (not sure if it ever got to broadway or not) depicting Jesus and the apostles as homosexual teens in a modern school setting. It was denounced almost universally by christian leaders, but no death threats were issued that I'm aware of, nor in the case of the "piss christ" (google it if you are unaware what it is) did it result in death threats, I linked here a while ago about comparative reactions as the "piss christ" was displayed in Australia, a die hard Christian who was deeply offended by it damaged the picture and said if he had access to the artist "I'd like to punch him in the nose." Hardly an equivalent reaction to something that is arguably a greater blasphemy than that of the cartoons linked above. As Johnny said, the difference is that while we may not like what you have to say, or agree that it's art, we will not stop you from making your statement, nor threaten you with death for making one they disagree with (there are exceptions like Pat Robertson who everybody that has half a brain ignores outright).

[ 02-03-2006, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]

I'm VERY hesitant to bring this up, but is it the fundamental differences in the religions that causes this strife? Please PM me if you know Islam, I'm quite curious, and sick of both sides throwing vitirolic statements around.

blog about free speach While that's probably not what anyone would expect me to agree with, but I do. In the case of this blog it's discussing the freedom to burn an American flag by an American citizen. (not entirely on topic but the point can be applied easily enough to the current topic)

How little you understand us. Out government has funded art projects to make sculptures of the Virgin Mary out of animal feces. Christian groups called it deplorable, but no one went and bought a flag to burn. Wanna see some cartoons lampooning Jesus? -- Just watch South Park. See, over here we have lives worth living, and better things to do than stand around acting like retards in front of the cameras for the rest of the world to see. (Um, of course Americans will act like retards if you pay them or put them on a reality show, but that's a different story.)

Article on the Piss Christ, FYI: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piss_Christ

[ 02-03-2006, 10:13 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

CNN has pictures of Muslim protests ranging from Palestine to Bangladesh. One trend I noticed is that it seems like the further eastward you go the less likely you are to find Muslim pyromaniacs. Seems like the ones in Asia just want to rally and shout and pray, not buy Danish products and burn them.

I still haven't seen the cartoons that started this fiasco, anyone got a linky for me?

Sorry, I haven't got the time to write you a PM on this issue, but the basic answer is that it depends on who you talk to.

All my moderate Muslim friends claim that such acts can never be justified, many others claim the opposte. There is no right answer due to the stupidity of trying to base your entire life around ambiguous texts.

If you want an "anti" view then you could do worse than start with Jihad Watch. Many of the posters are monkeys and deserve ignoring, but the founder knows how to string a decent argument together and it's worth reading some of his articles. Also The Religion of Peace.

For a neutral view, something like this Wikipedia article is a good start, with plenty of links at the bottom.

As for a "pro-view", I haven't got any links at the moment, but trust me that there is plenty out there. Some focus on saying that the Qu'ran has been interpreted wrongly whilst most focus on the rather undeniable fact that the people of the Middle-East have been shat on by the West unlike any other region in the world and the anger is therefore reactionary.

Not a bad series of articles here explaining the rise of political Islam.

Those with a bit of perspective however, will recall the total lack of political influence that political Islam had until the late 60s and the humiliation of Egypt and pan-Arabism - this is not something intrinsic to Islam. There is also a direct correlation between political clampdowns and the rise of political Islam - the brutal governments we help keep in power drive political discussion into the only safe public forum left: the mosque.

My personal belief is that a distorted Islam is used as a tool to incite the uneducated masses. It could do with an update and it takes itself too seriously in my view, but there's not much intrinsically worse than any other religion in the Qu'ran. All the supplementary traditions and texts are the real problem, and they are largely a function of the ultra-strict patriarchal society in which it developed.

If you want to go into this in detail, will be happy to respond to any questions you have via PM, although I don't claim to be a particular expert.

[ 02-03-2006, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Really? They might want to send Africa a memo on that issue, might increase their morale.

Or the Native Americans, or Incans, Mayans and Aztecs or just about any other people indigenous to the Americas, Heck you could even throw in Australian Aboriginals.

Perhaps I should have said the Muslim world - how many Islamic terrorists have been from North Africa after all?

Still, we gave up on controlling and exploiting Africa a century ago, at least directly. The Middle-East on the other hand has been interefered with like nothing else during the last century.

The US and Britain have condemned the republication of the cartoons.

Werent the bombers in Spain primarily from Morocco?

I have four points on this.

1. Freedom of speech is very important. But so too is respect and courtesy for others, including their religions.

2. I personally did not find anything wrong with the first publishing of the cartoons. I believe people have the right to engage in satire as long as people know it is satire. I also believe that people have the right to protest peacefully against things they don't like, even if this extends to rallies, boycotts of products and so on. Christians will remember the furore that happened when the movie The Last Temptation of Christ was released, depicting Jesus having sexual relations with someone. I'm pretty sure there were lots of protests about that too. It's our right to engage in peaceful protest when we see things we don't like. That's a very important right.

3. It was extremely unwise of the EU papers to repost these cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed in a inflammatory and stupid way. Freedom of speech brings with it a lot of responsibility, particularly from members of the media. It is interesting that the US and UK have condemned the republishing of the cartoons not because they disagree with the newspapers' right to publish them, but rather for the reasons behind their being published, and the impact they have had on Muslims. It's called being stupid for no reason.

4. It's fine to do peaceful protests, rallies and boycotts, but the morons who are talking about killing and abducting Western diplomats and threatening more suicide bombings and violence over this are the biggest idiots of all. You're entitled to protest, but to threaten loss of life and violence over this is a massive exaggerated response in my option. Two wrongs don't make a right.

My 2c. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color = lightgreen>Anyone who finds those cartoons insulting can just grow up and get over it! :rolleyes:

I would find cartoons insulting anything funny, because if you can't laugh at something then you have serious psychological problems. Besides, everything deserves to be ridiculed at some point. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

Yup, but that was my point. If we take Africa as being another place with an axe to grind as a result of Western interference then it would also explain why there's been a fair number of terrorists from the likes of Algeria and neighbouring countries.

I would still say that the impact upon the Middle-East of the West has been much greater though - simply as a result of technology making it much easier to do. We really didn't make much inroads into the non-coastal areas of Africa (the odd railway aside). Slavery, whilst devastating to coastal regions, didn't extent to most of the interior in my understanding (except when trafficked to the coast by natives) and in any case Africa was not even composed of homogenous countries.

The Middle-East however owes its current existence to the West - the Ottoman empire never really got to grips with it, it's states are largely artificially created during the last century and whole governments were entirely supported financially by the West. (eg. Syria by Britain pre-WW2 and America post-WW2 until they discovered oil.

Not to mention that the West planted a country in the middle of it, fought several wars (both directly and by proxy)in the region - both pre-WW2 and during the Cold War...I'd say they've had their fair share of interference.

Your 2c appraises for more in my book. Great points!

RANT...

Well let me be the first to apologize to Denmark, France, and all the EU countries who have made a stand for Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press. The apparently spineless US Gubberment has decided to stand in the forefront of those trading away fundamental rights to avoid making people 'mad'.

And to those who would say that Freedom of Speech doesn't apply in this case... I would say that if freedom of speech doesn't extend to saying something that will make someone else upset... then Freedom of Speech is a sham and an illusion. These Freedoms apply and need to be defended ESPECIALLY when you're saying something that might make someone else upset.

I'm embarrassed for my country that we would not be in the FOREFRONT of those defending the right of that Danish newspaper to print those stupid cartoons. We've sunk far.

grr...

/RANT

anyway... Memnoch you're making valid points regarding responsibility, and frankly the cartoons were poor at best... but some fault lies with the way the Islamic world has responded to the stupid things. There was a controversy surrounding the topic and the papers chose to cover that controversy, and informing their readers included reporducing those works. It was a judgement call, could it have been handled better... sure... but should the Danish and French Governments apologize for the decisions of a couple editers in a couple papers? HECK NO.

[ 02-03-2006, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

You know it easy to tell other people to just "grow up and get over it" when that something doesn't effect you personally in any way. But when that something does effect you personally, let's see how "grow up" you can be.

There was once a boy back when I was still in secondary school who likes to make rude joke and pranks about other students and he would just laugh and tell other students to calm down and laugh together with him because as he said it " it was just a joke " . Then one day I cut a little piece of black cloth and hung it on his shoulder and jokingly remarked " wow, someone died? ". Good god you should see how berserk he was until several students had to restrain him because he started to throw punches at me.

Bad example? well, I couldn't think of any. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color = lightgreen>I don't let what other people might say effect me personally, so I never have to worry about "growing up" or "getting over it". [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

People whose buttons get pushed easily by things such as cartoons deserve to have their buttons pushed often. [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] </font>

Well, i have to admit that Bugs Bunny pissed me off once or twice. And i really hate Roadrunner. :D

I was talking to a good Muslim mate of mine here at school about this and he made a good point that Muslims have so many more important things to think about, worry about and get angry about that this. He told me that for too long Islam has been associated with violence, hatred and anger. He also told me a story about the Prophet Mohammed. He said: "During the Prophets lifetime, an old woman used to regularly throw garbage over the Prophet. One day when he passed her house there was no garbage thrown and he became concerned so he investigated and found out she was ill. When she saw the Prophets concern she became a Muslim."

I'm pretty sure the Prophet Mohammed would've have approved of these clowns below eh?

http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r399679231.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...r378273214.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...m-protest4.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...m-protest3.jpg
http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f1...2127562052.jpg

And no, these blokes didn't come from some uneducated backwater village in Pakistan or Afghanistan - these are British Muslims in London calling for Bin Laden's help and threatening to retaliate 9/11 style. :rolleyes:

[ 02-04-2006, 01:22 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

I honestly don't understand why the authorities allowed these pigs to go on a protestmarch. They should have given them the same treatment as any common mob of footballhooligans, and after that evict them from Britain.

[ 02-04-2006, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: johnny ]