If it's not it might explain a lot. :D

[Experts with newscaster on CNN 24th March.

[In the Studio] 3 American experts including a former 2-star general, 1 ex SAS (British) and the network's anchor.

[VIDEO] Footage of iraqis giving themselves up.

anchor: We have no verification as of yet if they are British or American troops taking these POW's

yank1: Only Americans wear boots like that, they're American

yank 2: I agree, and they appear to have American camouflage jackets.

yank 3 (General): I'm not so sure, there's not enough up-close detail to tell 100%, we'd need some close images to tell make of boots and jackets and maybe the shape of their kevlar headgear.

Ex British SAS man: Call yourselves experts? Since when did US forces use an SA80 as a standard issue rifle? Their DPM's can be bought as can boots so you're chasing rainbows if you want to identify them from their clothes.

anchor: I think you're right.

Ex SAS man: Course I'm bloody right. Any one with half a brain and basic military training worth their salt should be able to identify a British soldier by his rifle. Not to mention the fact they're covering all points properly, not shouting "woo yeah" randomly, and haven't raised a flag in direct Contravention with orders.

At this point 1 of the yanks walks off stage tearing his mic off, and the anchor says "I think we can safely say the soldiers on your screen are British. Now for these messages".]

[ 04-14-2003, 11:16 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

It's probably an urban myth, but even so, this little excerpt provides a bit of an insight into the view of american soldiers that is common in my country.

Bardan, you mean a view of Americans that is common in your country. I offer this thread up as further proof against every IWF member who has ever said "I don't see anybody bashing on the US." Even I, a lowly civilian, know to look at the rifle. Urban myth.

And one wonders why anyone ever had a problem with European elitism. :rolleyes: Sorry, guys, maybe someday I'll just learn to quit going against the wisdom of those who are my betters.

Sadly, yes. IMHO, it has gotten worse since the common perception that you elected a Good Ol' Boy as president, rather than someone suitable. No matter what Bush does in America, that worstened the hackneyed (and totally wrong) stereotype of the gun-toting loud-mouthed, not-too-bright American in the eyes of my compatriots. And we're meant to be your closest friends ... :( .

Yes, as do I, which is exactly why i declared it was probably an urban myth. However, given the current climate here on IW, where you need 3 links just to prove you took a shower this morning, I try to refrain from absolute statements of fact when I don't have links to hand ;)

Yes, and quite right too. Damn colonials, always getting ideas above their station .... ;)

[ 04-14-2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]

Elected! Hell he wasn't elected him and his brother Jeb stole it!!!!Good ol boy? well maybe ,(brothers name is Jeb) Stupid? well there's an agreeable statement!!

<font color="#C0C0C0">"The difference in tactics can be striking. When Fox Company thought it spotted “enemy” in a group of buildings, it fired missiles and mortars at the “position” for four hours. The next day, when a British Patrol was fired at from a house in Umm Qasr, the six soldiers got out of their vehicles, approached the building on foot and arrested two gunman. The incident was over in ten minutes, and no civilian property was damaged.
“For the Americans, there just does not seem to be anything between peace and all-out combat,” says a British officer. “Their military doctrine remains one based on the use of overwhelming fire power in every circumstance”. British soldiers, though, can draw on 30 years patrolling in Northern Ireland and several years spent on peace-support operations in the Balkans.”
--The Economist, April 5th 2003, p.26</font>

There are enough real stories highlighting the differences in the standards of training and tactics without needing to resort to 'urban myths' to prove the point.

As always, you manage to convey your thoughts in an intellectually stimulating manner.

I don't know if it was an urban myth Donut ......... but it was funnier than most any of Arvon's joke pages lately :D .

And how do you explain the recent episode of a US Artillery company being attacked at night in Baghdad by a group of Iraqi snipers and managing to take them prisoner? While laying down supressing fire, a group of soldiers flanked the snipers positions on foot and brought them out unharmed. That doesn't sound like overwhelming firepower to me. An opinion expressed by ONE officer doesn't establish the premise as a fact.

Nice, Micah. And let's not forget rescues of POWs without wounding ANYONE. Oh, and did you take a look at my "Invisible War" thread, Skunk? The one that discusses the military successes so well-executed no one even knew about them? See, we have these elite troops - they're called SEALs, Special Forces, etc. You keep comparing the UK veteran troops, who as you admit had years of experience oppressing the Irish, to our greenies in the field. I simply find that in the long run you are (1) insulting our intelligence, (2) ignoring previous instances where I've pointed this out, or (3) continuing to misrepresent things in the hopes that other IWF members read your side while ignoring mine. Well, I think they're not that blind. ;)

They used a MASSIVE BOMBARDMENT as a diversion - and you're saying that no-one was injured?

Yes I've heard of them - they're as well trained as the average British soldier. The problem with the US armed forces is that they rely very heavily on technology - and this eats into the training budget. The result is that, without "overwhelming firepower", the average US soldier has no clear idea what to do when they meet the enemy.

The supply convoy is a case in point - the soldiers came under fire, panicked and drove further into the town - and then made a stand! Instead they should have pushed their way out bringing the battle to the enemy. And what was all this rubbish over Jessica Lynch? "She's only a clerk" people said. No she was a soldier, first and foremost - she should have been able to hold her with any 'combat unit'. If she couldn't - it meant that she wasn't trained well enough - and shouldn't have been out of boot camp.

No - but we're talking about the opinion of virtually every British officer, from the blokes on the ground to those in the air...
.
.
.
.
.
You know, when 9/11 occured, and the US went to war with Afghanistan, <u>I was fully in support of the action.</u>
The US *HAD* been attacked by a group being sheltered by the Afghanistan government. The US did seek a diplomatic solution, it asked for OBL to be handed over and for the Al'Qaida camps to be dismantled. These were very reasonable demands and Afghanistan had 6 weeks to comply (a very long time in the wake of an actual attack).
Declaring the war then, was a just action.

But after the war was declared, the US lost its legitimacy by the way in which it conducted the war. The "overwhelming firepower" technique was employed using cluster bombs, air-fuel bombs and other indiscriminate ordinance. Approximately 4,000 civilians died as a result (greater than the number killed in the 9/11 attack) and more than 20,000 injured in the 6 week campaign. And people are *still* dying and suffering as a result of that action. This 'one battle tactic suits all' ideology is wrong and undermines the support of the international community at large.

If we had gone to Iraq with the express purpose of removing Saddam Hussein and made sure that we did not use this "overwhelming firepower coupled with indiscriminate ordinance" technique - this war *would have* had my full backing (provided of course, that we also had no plans to set up a puppet regime and interfere with the social, political and economic fabric of the country). Because *then* you could have called it a just war - rather than the illegitimate war that it ended up being.

[ 04-15-2003, 04:04 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

Now now, we can talk, but let's just make sure we keep the handbags away from each other, ok? :D

There is no argument that our war against terrorism started long before you joined.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Timber Loftis:
You keep comparing the UK veteran troops, who as you admit had years of experience oppressing the Irish.

Timber.. You may have been upset by the thread and in my opinion rightly, tho' I did laugh. However this comment I find uncalled for. I will not start an argument on this thread or even this forum on the terrorist actions in Britain unless you wish too. However I am MORE than willing to discuss (put you right [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] ) in another thread, perhaps in GD forum (?).

However to lash out this way was uncalled for and below your usual high standards. Yes you have hit a raw nerve, at least with me. Please lets keep this forum on Iraq, Syria, and Turkey ECT, not Britain.

[img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img]

[ 04-15-2003, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: wellard ]

In that case you can be fair and add America as an off-limits to discussion as well.

This whole thread is uncalled for.

France too then...please. ;)

Thread title... America at war with Iraq

I am more than happy to discuss this issue, but I would hate for Timber to be unable to counter my compelling arguments before it was closed down [img]graemlins/blueblink.gif[/img]

However maybe Donut should have put a wink on the top of the thread. I do admit to laughing, but it was hurtfull.

<font color="#ffccff">Much as it galls me, I have to agree, terrorists are terrorists wether Irish or Arab or Asian or other..

But I still think it is assinine to try and compare any two seperate actions, especially from your comfy safe hidey hole in front of your computer screen. Put yer ass on the line and THEN tell people how to handle the situation.</font>

So basicly, if one does not actually visit the place that the action occurs in, one has no business asking questions or bringing up the subject? Would seem to me that you would then have to keep your trap shut unless it happened in your own town....

;)

Many of us have and it may give our evaluation of a given scenario a bit more accuracy, but it does not give our opinions greater value than those without that experience.

Just to put skunk right on a few facts:
1. The convoy was AMBUSHED -- by and entire town. It had no real route to "back out" as you mention.
2. Saying the SEALs and Special Forces get as much training as the regular British soldier is just plain rude. Our special forces are some of the best in the world, and you know good and well they are more comparable to Mossad, SAS, etc.
3. Jessica Lynch *did* go down fighting, and though she drove a desk she did have basic military training. I forget how many she killed before she got hit, but it was more than 2 or 3.

{EDIT} And Wellard, I will gladly discuss Ireland with you anywhere you like. Don't ask for a good argument, though. I am ignorant enough on the topic that I'd just be in the debate to learn. ;)

[ 04-15-2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Fair enough Timber. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Timber.. You may have been upset by the thread and in my opinion rightly, tho' I did laugh. However this comment I find uncalled for. I will not start an argument on this thread or even this forum on the terrorist actions in Britain unless you wish too. However I am MORE than willing to discuss (put you right [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] ) in another thread, perhaps in GD forum (?).

However to lash out this way was uncalled for and below your usual high standards. Yes you have hit a raw nerve, at least with me. Please lets keep this forum on Iraq, Syria, and Turkey ECT, not Britain.

[img]graemlins/hippysmile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=plum><font color=white>Wellard</font> - It was <font color=silver>Skunk</font> who brought the British troops into the discussion...not <font color=tan>Timber</font>. You agreed that <font color=tan>Timber</font> had a right to be upset and I do appreciate that. Claiming that our Special Forces units are equal to the "average British soldier" is a bit condescending to say the least. The conflict between Britain and Ireland strikes a nerve with you - fair enough - but I see no chastisement of the member who mentioned it first, only of the member who "lashed out" in retaliation.

<font color=silver>Skunk</font> - {sigh}I try to avoid responding to your posts because you often have a very condescending tone towards America in general and our troops specifically. I'll grant you the British troops are far more experienced in the tactics of urban warfare than our own troops - there is no doubt about that. And I also agree that the supply convoy made an egregious strategical error once they came under attack. As you correctly pointed out, this is the first time many of our soldiers have actually faced enemy fire...so a few mistakes are understandable (not necessarily acceptable - just understandable). But that wasn't what upset me about your post. What bothered me were the statements that our Special Forces units are the <font color=yellow>"as well trained as the average British soldier"</font> and that <font color=yellow>"virtually every British officer, from the blokes on the ground to those in the air..."</font> hold the opinion that <font color=yellow>“For the Americans, there just does not seem to be anything between peace and all-out combat,”....“Their military doctrine remains one based on the use of overwhelming fire power in every circumstance”</font>

I thought you were retired from the military, so I didn't realize you were still privy to the opinions of virtually every British officer. Then again, maybe the comment is based on your previous military experience and the opinions expressed by the officers you knew at that time.

Either way, I hope you can see why Americans would consider those comments to be somewhat arrogant and condescending in nature. I'm not accusing you of being "anti-American" <font color=white>(although I do wonder exactly what foreign policy you're disagreeing with in your statements [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/lol.gif[/img] )</font> . You're entitled to your opinion and if you feel British troops are just inherently superior to U.S. troops, then good on you (nothing wrong with being proud of your own troops). But I hope you appreciate the fact that all the members here have an equal level of pride in their respective nations and our individual posts should remain respectful even when we disagree.

<font color=tan>Timber</font> - I have to agree with <font color=white>Wellard</font> a little bit too. <font color=silver>Skunk's</font> post may have been somewhat "baited", but you could have chosen to ignore the bait. I know it isn't easy. I had to leave the forum for a couple of hours myself before I could "respond" rather than just "retaliate". But then I realized that <font color=silver>Skunk</font> did have some valid points - it was just his presentation that I disagreed with. So I tried to focus on the issues rather than the emotions they raised.</font>
</font>

<font color="#ffccff">Fortunately I am under no compulsion to follow YOUR rules. I just made the assumption that if you say a person can't comment on something unless they actually go there then YOU should live up to YOUR own expectations...then again, maybe you don't mind being hippocritical.

I also know that second guessing field commands is easy when you are safe at home in your own home.

I believe that this is the news site that some of the people here get their information from.

http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com/
</font>

[ 04-15-2003, 02:29 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

LOL! Good site!

Magik you are Tartoor! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

[ 04-15-2003, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Nice website, MagiK, but you should edit the link - there is a "< font >" text at the end that breaks it.

Oh, and after all the trouble caused by the original post and the recent France post, the fireworks will really fly now. Oh, well, in the end we're not going to save the world, stop any wars, or solve hunger with our posts, so I really have no dog [img]graemlins/dogrun.gif[/img] in the fight [img]graemlins/fight.gif[/img] . [img]graemlins/evilhaha.gif[/img]

[ 04-15-2003, 02:00 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

<font color="#ffccff">Errr you're welcome......Tartoor? Meriam Webster hasn't heard of it...is it good?

TL I fixed the link...I think...</font>

I found the word on the site you listed,

it is Iraqi and means "a man full of farts (hot air)" :D (not to be taken personally, just in the spirit of the site you listed)

[ 04-15-2003, 03:07 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Sadly, yes. IMHO, it has gotten worse since the common perception that you elected a Good Ol' Boy as president, rather than someone suitable. No matter what Bush does in America, that worstened the hackneyed (and totally wrong) stereotype of the gun-toting loud-mouthed, not-too-bright American in the eyes of my compatriots. And we're meant to be your closest friends ... :( .

Quote:

I offer this thread up as further proof against every IWF member who has ever said "I don't see anybody bashing on the US." Even I, a lowly civilian, know to look at the rifle. Urban myth.

Yes, as do I, which is exactly why i declared it was probably an urban myth. However, given the current climate here on IW, where you need 3 links just to prove you took a shower this morning, I try to refrain from absolute statements of fact when I don't have links to hand ;)

Quote:

And one wonders why anyone ever had a problem with European elitism. :rolleyes: Sorry, guys, maybe someday I'll just learn to quit going against the wisdom of those who are my betters.

Yes, and quite right too. Damn colonials, always getting ideas above their station .... ;) </font>[/QUOTE]So the people from the south are frowned upon buythe entire world? not just Yankkess from the north?...how funny
Good ole Girl from Arkansas

Ah the Oprah Winfrey syndrome, random shouting of "woo yeah" by Americans for no other reason apart from being on TV!.

<font color="#ffccff">Well you know that Bean Burrito did sort of go down hard....</font> :D

Forum Title: America At War--War With Iraq
Thread Title: Please Tell Me This Is An Urban Myth

Not that the joke wasn't funny as a joke but the initial post seemed to be intended to push buttons inciting hurt or anger moreso than attempting to make anyone (other than the anti-American crowd) laugh...my response was more of a :rolleyes: kind of "oh brother" ... consider the sources...Donut [i]and]/i] CNN. [img]graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

I see nothing compelling in your argument, the British are guilty of centuries of atrocities against other nationalities and races all in the name of profit and domination. Conflicts with the Irish are just a speck of the many spices that make that ugly pot of soup taste so bad. Don't like it? Shouldn't have cooked it.

Oh and Donut...all kinds of crap came out about CNN today, how they undermine American politics in order to set themselves apart as an "independent global news source". I always considered them to be clueless and wouldn't have been surprised if the original post wasn't an urban myth, it turned out to be just another inept attempt at winning ratings by hiring actors to portray people in authority or people with any real knowledge of what's going on. They are failures as journalists and I wouldn't expect them to be so "global" now that the real truth behind their broadcasting has been revealed (by their own employees btw). Another nasty pot of soup that you and your fellow Brits can have...and with pleasure.

[ 04-15-2003, 07:21 PM: Message edited by: Lil Lil ]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lil Lil:
Forum Title: America At War--War With Iraq
Thread Title: Please Tell Me This Is An Urban Myth

you win that one Lil LiL [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

I see nothing compelling in your argument, the British are guilty of centuries of atrocities against other nationalities and races all in the name of profit and domination. Conflicts with the Irish are just a speck of the many spices that make that ugly pot of soup taste so bad. Don't like it? Shouldn't have cooked it.

It was not me :eek: hey no one saw me do it, you can not prove a thing [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Oh and Donut...all kinds of crap came out about CNN today, how they undermine American politics in order to set themselves apart as an "independent global news source". I always considered them to be clueless and wouldn't have been surprised if the original post wasn't an urban myth, it turned out to be just another inept attempt at winning ratings by hiring actors to portray people in authority or people with any real knowledge of what's going on. They are failures as journalists and I wouldn't expect them to be so "global" now that the real truth behind their broadcasting has been revealed (by their own employees btw). Another nasty pot of soup that you and your fellow Brits can have...and with pleasure.

I still don't know what happened for sure but if it was a scam by CNN an American company by Americans for Americans then don't be surprised if we foreigners find it a little bit funny...

Some people find Jerry Springer amusing, but hey! Some people believe that show not to be actors but real life people and a true reflection of American society. Again made by American TV :D

So Lil Lil and others, if in fact that episode was "real" don't kick out at other countries because we found it amusing. Try kicking out against the people in your own country that made it, made some members of your own country look foolish, then accepted money to broadcast it to the world.

Funny you should mention Jerry Springer...CNN resembles it more every day.
I've got no beef with any American raised company selling out, that is one of the freedoms Americans have...to raise ourselves up from our boot straps and sell to the highest bidder, to bide by the desires of those who put out the most money to keep it on the air...it's their right. The initial post didn't hurt me at all...it expresses the mentality associated with CNN quite well as a matter of fact and that's got nothing to do with Americans as a whole.
You can't expect everything that rises out of a land of opportunity to expres intelligence. *shrug*

I find it funny some people would use the worst example to make a mental image from. Actually I should not be suprised at all

LOL yeah, great minds think alike; the same can be said for the simple ones. ;)

Miss Stormymystic Ma'am,
If they ain't from Dixie they're Yankees, does it really matter if they are British Yankees, Iraqi Yankees, or Russian Yankees ;)
"If Heaven ain't alot like Dixie I don't want to go"
"Just send me to Hale or drop me off in the middle of New York City it's all the same to Me"

It's not suprising. People see what they want to see for several reason's. It would be like me going to Britain and finding the scum and making a opinion on British life from it.

Hey whatever makes you feel better! WooHoooooooo (taking part in the oprah syndrome)

This our troops are better then your troops Charlie Foxtrot reminds me of an article I read years ago in Jane's (IIRC) they did a survey of the world's major Air Forces/Naval Aviation officers. Jane's ask "List the three best air combat forces in the world". Now Jane's being the Cagey (Smart fellows that they are) KNEW that every Air Force/Naval Aviation officer would say their Air service was the best. So the real test was who was picked as #2 by the most. The results of the Air forces was unanimous
#1 their own air force
#2 the Isreali Air Force
#3 the US Air Force(the only split was here were the RAF went along with the rest of the world's Air Forces, and the US Air Force ranked the RAF as #3)
The Results from Naval Aviation was also unanimous
#1 their own Naval avation
#2 the Isreali Air Force
#3 the US Navy(the same split here but Royal Navy instead of RAF.)
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

Yea right there buddy, next your going to tell me that "Rasl'n" (WWF for you non believers) is fake. :D