Asking out of ignorance. Thanks.

Here's s9me background reading for you:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...932911,00.html

Thank you, Skunk.

No better than Saddam if you ask me.

I'm sorry I forgot to add the Thanks when I posted. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-10-2003, 10:18 AM: Message edited by: Lil Lil ]

This is the main reason why Turkey keeps getting its application to join the EU turned down - it's policies towards the Kurds are at odds with the EU constitution and the European Charter for Human Rights.

This is also the reason why the European press was so angry at Washington for attempting to pressure the EU into accepting Turkey's application to join...

I don't blame them!

<font color="#ffccff">Probably won't be seeing too much of that kind of pressure in the future Skunk [img]smile.gif[/img] seeing how well our Turkish Allies supported our war effort and all. The American Public isn't too keen on people who are supposed to be our friends and allies suddenly turning and "putting it to us" when our backs are turned. Not to mention the attempted bit of extortion they tried. While still an ally, Im not sure that they will be receiving any giftsin the near future. </font>

Apparently, the U.S. has given them they assurance the the Kurds will "be removed" from Kirkuk. I would assume that they would have to "remove" them from Mosul as well but that city wasn't mentioned (but Mosul being closer to the Turkish border makes me think that "Kirkuk" means the whole Northern region of Iraq).

wtf...where do they intend to "remove" these people to and why shouldn't they be given any rights as citizens of Iraq? As an independent state?

[ 04-10-2003, 11:46 AM: Message edited by: Lil Lil ]

<font color="#ffccff">Don't know Lil, havent read anything on this yet. BUT I am thinking if they don't get removed and resettled by the US they may get "exterminated" by the Turks. </font>

I actually hope that the Iraqi Kurds can work with the other people of Iraq to build a new Iraq and place their differences aside. Ethnic Differences should not be an object in building a nation but I know things are more complicated than that but I think it can be done.

If Iraq becomes a country open to all religion and ethnic groups many Kurds will possible leave Turkey to move back to Iraq. At least that would be an idea solution, well the real ideal solution would be for Turkey to give there own Kurds the same rights as every other citizen in their country.

[ 04-10-2003, 11:58 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

<font color=skyblue>I dunno, y'all. It looks to me from this CNN report that we are helping the Kurds; who seem to be using our help to claim the land that they want to call their own. I seriously think that will try to form their own country, which I have heard before referred to as Kurdistan.
In my understanding of the situation, Colin Powell seems to be lying to Turkey, and they know that or they would not be sending their own troops in to make sure it goes their way.

I do not know if this is bad or not. I don't really know what is going on between us and Turkey and the Kurds, besides what has been outlined above. Is that all there is to know of the situation?</font>

There is no way that Turkey would allow a free Kurdish state on their southern border, they would end up invading to prevent it I'd be willing to wager. Washington knows this and it's just one of the many minefields they'll need to negotiate to stabalize the region.

<font color=orange>When Powell told Turkey that all the Kurds would be removed from Kirkuk, I don't think he meant the Kurdish civilian population that lives there, but the Peshmerga. Of course, I don't think Turkey should have much say in what goes on in Iraq, since they didn't put their butts on the line. I do hope that all the ethnic groups in Iraq can get a long. IMO this will be the most difficult part of the task that lays ahead.</font>

Very tough issues. I foresee a push for Kurdish state. They are 20% of Turkey's population. [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] Can you imagine, that's akin to the US making it illegal for Hispanics to speak Spanish or give their children Hispanic names. Crazy.

Not exactly the model EU nation, is it?

Is it just Turkish nationalism, or is there some other reason Turks dislike the 25 million Kurds on the planet?

<font color=skyblue>Good example, TL. I learned recently that the number of Hispanics in America outnumber the blacks now! Or was that just N.C.?

</font>

I think I read somewhere that under 'Volkerenbond' rule (so I assume the UN adopted this as well) all races are entitled to a nation of their own. Now, this was somewhere in the back of my history book, so I may very well be wrong. Perhaps many of the Kurdish people will move to the 'Free Iraq' when this is all over [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well if Turkey had been smart they would have taken the 20 billion, and given the kurds a section of SE Turkey (nothing but mountains there any way) to go along with the northern part of Iraq. Let them form their own country, tell all turkish kurds that they could go to the new homeland, or swear a oath of allegance to Turkey(Oaths still mean something to them). Signed a mutual defense pact or peace treaty with the new Kurdistan, and have a grateful ally to their SE.

You are all talking about a nation and people that conquered and oppressed dozens of nationalities for centuries. Why are the Turks even in Istanbul? Or should I say Byzantium. What happened to the Greeks there and in Ionia? What happened to the Gauls of Galatia in central Turkey? What about the Armenians they slaughtered? It's a nation with an extreme amount of crap on it's hands. This last little oppression of the Kurds is sickening. Long live Kurdistan!

Of course you can hear the detractors already. The last time an oppressed minority was given a nation in the middle east, we never heard the end of it.

See "Israel". Once owned and controlled by.... Turkey.

[ 04-11-2003, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

Indeed Yorick

The fact is Turkey is SCARED. That is the real reason they did not support us. They fear the Kurdish people all uniting and forming a Kurdish state. They fear payback.

Say all this happened and Turkey decided to invade. All I can say is we BETTER defend the Kurdish.

People say Turkey should have took the money. Well that would not solve the long term problem. That is a united kurdish population. They would have not got those oil fields anyway. I am sure they asked. They were seriously caught between a rock and a hard place.

Every nation does. The european colonists persued a wipe-em-out policy against native Americans. We Brits marched all over the world, including Australia, and put down the indigenous populations to serve our own needs. Every nation on earth of any importance has made its mark by invading, relocating, conquering and suppressing.

I'm not for one single second suggesting that this kind of behaviour is right. What Turkey does disgusts me, just as what we did to the Native Americans and the Aborigines does too. By all means point out what a bad thing Turkey is doing, but remember - no nation has clean hands when it comes to opression and persecution. Turkey is not alone in what it is doing - the only difference is that such acts are a part of our history, but their present.

And TL - indeed, it's not at all European, which is why Turkey consistently (and to the infuriation of its politicians and populace) gets denied the right to bid for EU entry. And quite right too! ;)

I sort of had the impression that Bush had a wide open cheque book that he was waving about on this one. Was this entirely a case of extortion, or more a case of negotiations going awry as the administration set out to grease the squeeky wheels of diplomacy. I am sure the Turkey wish they had accepted the US offer now, but I think there is a bit of human tendancy to "see what price the market will bear". $20 Billion was a HUGE wad of enticement being waved at them - why wouldn't you ask yourself if they are offering 20 - will they pay 22 - 24 - whatever - how high might they go?

Every nation does. The european colonists persued a wipe-em-out policy against native Americans. We Brits marched all over the world, including Australia, and put down the indigenous populations to serve our own needs. Every nation on earth of any importance has made its mark by invading, relocating, conquering and suppressing.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, generally I agree. Yorick, I think the worst way to address these problems now is by looking at the "blame" side of the history. The best we can do is view the history honestly and say "X group does not like Y group" so we don't draw post-war political boundaries putting X and Y in the same little country. But to say "X did this BadThing(tm) and Y did that BadThing(tm) and Z was involved yadda yadd flur snur yakkity" is counterproductive. In a place whose known history of war is as... erm, colorful... as the ancient Greek and Roman empires and their fallout states, there is certainly enough blame to go around with worrying about (turns on best Michael Palin voice) "who killed who."

This is not to say I shouldn't have asked about the Turk/Kurd problem's history. I am interested: is it a historical problem or just modern-day reasonable fears of losing a large chunk of your national population and/or property?

[ 04-13-2003, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]