Just heard that US troops got in a protracted firefight with US troops for upwards of 90 minutes. 30 injured troops in all.

Boy, doesn't that look stoopid. 90 minutes? And they couldn't figure out they were shooting at each other. Deplorable.

[edit] I found the Link to the Article, which includes an estimate of all allied deaths thus far.

[ 03-27-2003, 12:04 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Fog of war... all the technology in the world doesn't seem to be able to get rid of it, and sometimes it seems to make it worse.

Speaking of stupid, I have heard the most imbecillistic sentence this morning on the radio : "The US generals say the war will last longer than expected, mainly because of the resistance of the Iraqi".

I know, I know what he meant - but this is an intrinsically stupid sentence : what, the generals say the war will be harder because the other side is fighting back ? Isn't this a war, or did I miss something ? :eek:

I think they have an assumed "unexpectedly strong" between "the" and "resistance". In this case they probably should have explicitly stated it, becuause you're right that the sentance is pretty silly without it.

While I see nothing incorrect in what you are saying Moiraine, isn't it a completely different topic than friendly fire? Do you see your post as relating to the article at all?? Just thought I'd ask you if it was relevant before I assumed it wasn't. ;)

You are right, it is irrelevant - it is just that I had wanted to post it, but I am generally reluctant to create a new thread for so small a matter, and I thought you wouldn't mind. I am sorry if you did. [img]smile.gif[/img]

No probs Moiraine. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

The problem with the fight is (obviously) that both sides thought that tha other was Iragi - so who is going to be the first to 'stand up' and get a really good look to see if the other guys shooting aren't the enemy. When under fire you tend to protest yourself as best as possible.

At least noone was killed [img]smile.gif[/img]

*...and Timber continues to furiously worry his favourite bone...*

:D :D :D :D :D :D : [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Has anybody been watching the NCAA basketball Championship tournement?
(John D. quickly runs in and rattles TL's favorite bone) ;) :D :D :D
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No this is not a real attempt to steal the thread, just with all the heat going on there needed to be a monent of levity. You may return to your regular thread broadcasting :D

Makes you wonder just how well all that technology is working for the US. How can you possible engage in a fire fight with your own troops for 90mins and not realize it? Was there no communication?

Good thing nobody called for air support? :D

I don't comepletly disagree with what you are stating but, you have to admit that many lives have most likely been spared by the U.S. and U.K. by being determined over the past two decades to develop the most modern and technologically advanced millitaries.

I heard on some cable news show that the U.S. Army's 4th Mechaninized division which is heading through the Suez Canal right now and will be deployed into Southern Iraq in about 7-10 days, is probably the most advanced tank division/brigade in the world. I remember hearing this retired military person say that the 4th's Abraham Tanks and Bradley fighting vehicles are outfitted with GPS and specific computer systems which allow the commanders to see on a screen in real time where each and every one of his vehicles are located. I beleive I remember him saying that each vehicle in this division has the similar capability of being able to see where other friendly vehicles/tanks are on the battle field, in relation to his own. This I think would almost comepletly eliminate anymore of these debacles that we have seen with "friendly fire".

Only if it works, Sir Heinrich. ;) The technology, just judging from what you say, has several things it depends on. First, the communication from tank to tank and from each tank to a hub is often a huge issue - at least if every communication device I've ever seen in my life is any indicator. Plus, the location of each tank is tagged to its GPS. If that is off by say, 50 meters, that would have a great effect.

Actually, according to the reports, it was due to guerilla tactics.
Basically what happened was that the militia crept in between the two units, opened fire on both sides - and crept away, leaving the two units to fight it out amongst themselves.

The first recorded use of the strategy was by US troops in WWII.
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/030327/140/dwdm6.html

You may very well be right on such a scenario. However, I was always under the impression that it was only the handheld and other related devices that the average citizen can buy at the store, which were under such location accuracy limitations. It was because the U.S. government (maybe others too?) would purposely skew the precise location reading of these devices in the name of national security. However the military's GPS devices are supposedly very very accurate, atleast in the vast majority of the time. I would also wager that they would (or already have) come up with backup communication methods. What those may be, I have no idea. The point is that much of today's technology DOES help to clear up the foginess of war, atleast to some degree.

<font color="#00FF00">Yet another incident!
Were these pilots on Acid????</font>

<u>'I never want to hear that sound again'</u>
They will never forget the sound of the guns. A cross between a moan and a roar, a fierce rattling of heavy rounds of 30mm canon fire from two A10 Thunderbolts flying low overhead. Aircraft that shouldn't have been in the British-controlled area, "cowboying" at just 500ft and looking for something to have a crack at.
Last Friday morning, two American pilots turned their guns on a convoy of five British vehicles from the Household Cavalry, killing one man just three days shy of his 26th birthday, injuring four others and wiping out two armoured reconnaissance vehicles from the squadron's Two Troop. <font color="#FFFF00">Two Iraqi civilians, waving a large white flag, were also killed.</font>

<font color="#FFFF00">Coloured smoke signs were sent up to indicate that they were friendly troops but it didn't stop the attack.</font> The planes came back a second time, seriously injuring those who had managed to scramble out of their vehicles with only superficial wounds. The gunner, Corporal Matty Hull, however, was the victim of a direct hit into his gun turret.

<font color="#FFFF00">The men in the Scimitars were screaming over the radio "stop the friendly fire, we are being engaged by friendly fire" and "pop smoke, pop smoke". The forward air controller, who liaises with coalition air forces to bring in fire missions, was shouting "check fire, check fire"</font>. Frantic calls were made to 16 Air Assault Brigade headquarters to find out what was going on. But no one seemed to know.

The A10s were about to take a third swing when they were told by the American air patroller working with the Household cavalry to stop firing.

<font color="#FFFF00">Instead of providing air cover while helicopters came in to evacuate the casualties, they baled out.</font>

The attack took place within the Household Cavalry's battlefield control line which means that everything in the air should be controlled by them and their embedded American air controller. The A10s were well out of their area and the matter is now being investigated amidst calls from some of the British troops that the pilots be prosecuted for manslaughter.

So far in this conflict, Britain has suffered more casualties from friendly fire, five, than from assaults by the Iraqis.

That morning's plan had been to use artillery, air and helicopter strikes against Iraqi positions in order to secure the area for future operations. D Squadron is an armoured reconnaissance unit and their job is to move in first and secure locations before other troops move in.

You could hear the battle over the radio, with the guns rattling down the airwaves. The squadron leader's Spartan vehicle narrowly missed a hit by two mortars, a procedure known as bracketing. The whistling and explosion cannot be heard in these vehicles but the tremor of the earth could.

The two Scimitars had been probing a road, checking for landmines, enemy locations, assault batteries.

At this point, Two Troop was given orders to move forward. Squadron leader Richard Taylor said: "I remember saying 'move quickly through the urban area, as we will be vulnerable from civilians, make best speed, good luck'. I don't think I will be wishing anyone good luck again."

Ears pricked up as shouting came over the radio. At first it seemed like someone had just lost their rag. Then the full horror dawned. One of the vehicles had been hit, no two, and by "friendly call signs".

Manslaughter

They stood still, stopping what they were doing. At first they thought it was one lad, then another. Whoever it was, it didn't ease the twist of knots that started knitting themselves in their stomachs. Later, they learned it was Matty Hull, who aside from being a gunner was also a military instructor who was being considered for a posting to Sandhurst to train officers.

Amidst the grief, their anger could not be contained. <font color="#FFFF00">All of D Squadron's vehicles are clearly marked, with fluorescent panels on the roofs, flags and other markings. It was something that the soldiers kept saying, over and over. "We spend all this money marking out our vehicles so this doesn't happen," one said. "If it was the heat of battle, shit happens. But it was clear daylight."</font>

Another said: "As far as I am concerned, those two pilots should be done for manslaughter. There's no way on the planet that they couldn't see two vehicles, that they couldn't see the dayglo panel on the top."

Trooper Joe Woodgate, 19, the driver of the Scimitar in which Cpl Hull was killed, walked away with holes in his bulletproof vest and a tear in either side of his shirtsleeve where shrapnel entered and exited, without touching his arm. All the rest of his colleagues had to be evacuated to the hospital ship Argos.

"We were given this mission to go along and clear one of the furthest routes, a road running along between the river Euphrates and this village. We knew it was going to be pretty hairy because we had been bombing the shit out of the Iraqis all day," he said.

"I was moving along and for some reason, the wagon just stopped dead and these two massive sparks came flying into my cab. I turned round and the turret was just a well of fire behind me. There was fire everywhere. I tried to get out and my hatch was jammed. I was banging away at it for what seemed like a lifetime but it was probably only a few seconds. As soon as I saw the fire, I thought 'get the ■■■■ out of here'. I managed to get out and rolled on the floor. I didn't realise that it was the Americans that had hit us.

"I remember seeing the front wagon which had been hit and I remember seeing the people getting out of that and running for cover. I thought there must be ground troops coming to get us. I went pegging it after them and jumped in a ditch. That was when the American plane came round to do a second swoop on us. That ■■■■■■■ gun, I don't want to ever hear that again. It's like a cross between a moan and a roar it's that fast.

"Chris Finney helped people get out of the wagon, he was amazing. I didn't know what was going on at that point. We were in this ditch and I still didn't realise it was Americans. I didn't realise that Matty was still in the turret. So we ran back over to the wagons. The engineers who had been in our convoy were there helping with the casualties and getting them into their Spartan while they were under fire.

"By all accounts, I found Finney and he had a shrapnel wound all up his arse. Gerry knew exactly what needed to be done. <font color="#FFFF00">I remember seeing him stand up and wave his arms in the air, trying to get these planes to stop</font>.

"When I got out, I thought Matty had got out as well but when I was pegging it off after Gerry, I thought where's Matty and I looked behind me and the ■■■■■■■ wagon was just a mess man. It's weird because you are thinking, maybe if I had done things differently... I don't know why Matty couldn't get out. People said they remember hearing him on the radio but I don't remember a thing. In hindsight, you always think there's something else you could have done.

"I went back there on Saturday when they went to recover the vehicles and Matty's body but I wasn't allowed out of the vehicle until they held a service for him. Part of me thinks, I have already cheated death and I may be tempting fate by staying out here but they have moved me to squadron headquarters because I don't have a vehicle to drive anymore and I should be safe here."

The Scimitar was so badly ablaze it was still smoking the following morning, the palls of gray in the eyeline of every member of D Squadron. Fully loaded with ammunition, it had become an exploding tinderbox. Much of it, including its gun turret and its tracks, had melted.

The troops could do nothing but evacuate the casualties and leave the gunner's body behind. When daylight came, the squadron leader, a padre and a number of the troops returned to the scene to bring the body out. <font color="#FFFF00">Chemical warfare suits had to be worn because of the threat from the depleted uranium used in the American weapons</font>. A remembrance service yesterday was interrupted by the thuds of incoming Iraqi artillery and the padre saying, "and the Lord said, oh, that was a bit close, get down".

Afterwards, squadron leader Taylor said: "Militarily, it was a very successful operation that was marred by the tragic events that led to friendly fire casualties. To Mrs Hull, I would like to say that the hearts of the squadron are very much with her and her family today. Her husband did not die in vain. He was an immaculately professional soldier. He was highly regarded and immensely popular within the regiment, he will always be remembered for his smiley face and professional manner."

Trooper Joe Woodgate said. "I can't stop thinking about him. I can't stop thinking about how he died. He has a wife and everything. In a way I think it is unfair that he had to go and I got out."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story...926204,00.html

[ 03-31-2003, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

Extracts from today's Times

“All this kit has been provided by the Americans. They’ve said if you put this kit on you won’t get shot,” LCoH Gerrard said from his hospital bed on the Argus. “We can identify a friendly vehicle from 1,500 metres, yet you’ve got an A10 with advanced technology and he can’t use a thermal sight to identify whether a tank is a friend or foe. It’s ridiculous.

“Combat is what I’ve been trained for. I can command my vehicle. I can keep it from being attacked. What I have not been trained to do is look over my shoulder to see whether an American is shooting at me.”

He added: “After this I am quite pleased to be going home. ‘Blue-on-blue’ has always been one of my biggest fears. It is something that my friends and family joked about. ‘Don’t worry about the Iraqis, it’s the Americans you want to watch.’ The proof is in the pudding really"
--------

It's sad when it comes to this. is there any possibility of getting this pilot on the TV so that he can explain what was going though his brain (sic) when he murdered this British soldier?

All of the previous 'friendly fire' incidents I can sort of understand. Men or Women under pressure, thinking their lives or lives of other allies are under threat, but this one is unforgivable. This pilot didn't have to shoot unless he was 100% certain that it was the enemy. Didn't the Union Jack give him a clue? Or doesn't he know what that flag looks like. Was he even aware that Britain is involved in the war in Iraq? General Richard Myers, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff has apologised, saying "there is simply no excuse". Thanks Dick - I'm sure his family is happy now.

Let's put the pilot of the A10 on trial for the murder of Lance Corporal of Horse, Matty Hull of the Blues and Royals, Household Cavalry Regiment, and if he's found guilty "let's fry his sorry ass!"

[ 03-31-2003, 05:30 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

This shite has got to stop. If I were the Britts, I'd start shooting back. I'm so damned embarrassed. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

<font color="#ffccff">I think he is refering to the fact that the general populace is not rising up as expected. Probably due to the fact that The Iraqi's have bought US and British uniforms and are going out and killing anyone who surrenders to them...and because of the fedayeen taking children as hostages to make the men fight. These tactics were not really anticipated. </font>

<font color="#ffccff">TL this stuff happens when two countries try to merge their forces with the multitude of incompatible systems and comms gear....it is sad that this happens but not completely surprising...each year we have casualties and accidents when we train together.....and when you have a number of years where training budghets get slashed due to lack of funding....well mroe accidents happen :( </font>

edit> never mind.

You can defend your government, and military all you want. Bottom line is your pilots obviously have a problem of shooting first and asking questions later. You can have all the technology in the world but it will never solve human stupidity. I think it is actually time your nation actually train your troops, to use the technology they have in identify targets first before blowing them away. It is ridiculous and you know it. The US has more technology and should be more capable than any other country yet they are the worst at it. The only reason I know is they don't have a clue how to use all the technology they have to play with. Do your troops have post secondary education or all they all high school graduates?

[ 03-31-2003, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Me, too. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And what would you say about the two British Challenger tank crews who fired on each other and killed two of their own outside of Basra? They didn't know what they were doing either? They weren't trained? They didn't have a clue?

Friendly fire happens, and with five out of every six soldiers being American, obviously, more incidents will be attributed to Americans, but it happens to everyone.

Maybe but it no excuse for pilots being in an area were they are not supposed to be or not getting more information on their targets.

Ronn and MagiK:
Even though pritchke has too much bile and obvious ignorance of the qualifications of our pilots, I have to side with him on this one. Two of our forces in a gun-battle for 90 minutes??? They can't figure out in that time to stop shooting?? 90 minutes is an eternity in a firefight. And, both groups were most certainly in constant radio contact with base.

And the A-10's. At 500 ft. shooting at readily-identifiable ally targets? C'mon. What idiot would think such a caravan was even Iraqi?? Are they blind?? Plus, I realize the 5:1 ratio logic, Ronn, but let's tally up the results at the end. I'm willing to bet you that US FF attacks outnumber any allies by a factor of at least 12:1.

When you combine forces, yes chances for mishap do go up. Which is why you should be extra-extra careful. Our forces simply rely on technology to do the job too much, IMO, and have sometimes forgotten some basic common sense tactics.

Would an experienced soldier be able to tell the difference between the sounds of an Enfield SA-80 and an M-16 or M4 discharging? What about the difference between those and a Kaleshnikov?

Timber, I didn't say they weren't stupid actions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Some are readily understandible while others are not.

In a firefight, during a sandstorm, while your buddies are all firing? I doubt it. I don't know for sure, but I doubt it.

Well, that's alot more reasonable, and much easier to agree with. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I've never been in the military, but the AK47 sounds totally different than an M16... pretty easy to tell apart once you've heard the two side by side. However, in the heat of battle I'd have to guess that all bets are off.

[ 03-31-2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Is their a difference between an experienced military 'member' and an experienced soldier?

Just trying to understand your wording and choice of the word 'member' there.

I have to apologise to Ronn and others because much have what I said about your troops and pilots was said not out of ignorance but more out of bile or anger. I actually had to leave the board for a bit to cool down and compose my thoughts. At the beginning of this war I said the troops seemed to be doing an excellent job and were very professional and I meant that. This case with the pilots was very similar to the case of the US pilots bombing Canadian troops while they were supposedly on an area designated for training. I had thought that they said something like we will not let this happen again yet here it is again. I just don't understand how the pilots are making these mistakes because it just should not be occurring especially in areas were they are not suppose to be flying, easily identifiable targets, or areas designated for training.

[ 03-31-2003, 03:29 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

I'm with you on this, so no worries. :D

Some of the friendly fire things I can understand, and others (especially this one) make absolutely no sense. I don't know exactly why this happened, but I'd like some answers, too.

I'd say that they were in the middle of a fierce battle, at night in "pitch darkness", against opposing Iraqi tanks attempting to break out of Basra.
The tank was destroyed with a single shot.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2886715.stm

Given the circumstances, this is one of those times when you can say:
"If it was the heat of battle, shit happens."

Exactly skunk. Shit does happen, but no, that does not appear to apply with the fighter attack on the convoy, and I've said so in this very thread. ;)

Oh yes, so you have - missed that bit. [img]smile.gif[/img]

:D :D :D

As I said Ronn, I can understand mistakes being made in the heat of battle when your life is at threat but an A10 pilot has time to be 100% sure. Is it a crime to return to base without firing all of your weapons. And of course they are trained - that's why they keep hitting us.

BTW - if 1 out of every 6 soldiers is British you'd think they'd be harder to find.

[ 04-01-2003, 04:53 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]