The link is here.

From what I've read, it actually is a known and apparently legal Iraqi chemical plant. (I know that sounds like an oxymoron [img]tongue.gif[/img] )

They have found barrels of chemicals there, but since it was a chemical plant, there would, of course, be chemicals there. The military is very reserved in their assessment of this facility and the findings because of that fact.

I do expect WoMD to be found in Iraq, but I'm going to withhold judgment on this possible find until an official assessment is made.

[ 03-23-2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

<font color = lightgreen>It is so very difficult to tell what may or may not be a chemical weapon factory. It all depends upon the reagents present and how they may be used, as well as the definition of "chemical weapon". Simple potassium nitrate can be dangerous, but not in a "mass destrucion" sort of way. This will unfortunately take weeks to sort out. </font>

I'm still withholding judgement while finding the information interesting, but new reports, while not saying WoMD were found, are saying this site was not a "disclosed" site. They also say this site was found to have "sanding(sp?)" masking techniques in place to hide it from satellite recon. ;)

[ 03-23-2003, 10:09 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Them wasskely Iraqi's camouflaging an asprin factory, where's Slicky willie when you need him? ;)

Hmm not sure why this site was so effectively camouflaged if it was a legal chem plant. Interesting

Me too [img]smile.gif[/img]

That reminds me movies where the cop put some drug in the bad guy's pocket so he can arrest him.

I don't have any doubt on that, WoMD will be found, in a way or another.

Probably a legal chemical plant for civil uses one day and used to make WoMD the next.

It probably makes aspirin or something, like the one slick willy bombed to give him time to get a BJ from Monica.

Maximus, if you carry on with this sort of posting style, your stay here will be extremely short. There is nothing wrong with being passionate about a subject, but your comments are pure flamebait.

Back off, take a deep breath, read the "Rules and Regulations" and think more carefully before you post. If you show respect for your fellow members, that respect will be returned. If you don't, you're history.

Banned.

Me too [img]smile.gif[/img]

That reminds me movies where the cop put some drug in the bad guy's pocket so he can arrest him.

I don't have any doubt on that, WoMD will be found, in a way or another.</font>[/QUOTE]Well, I expect them to be found, because I believe he has them and is hiding them. I believe this and think it is consistant with my views on the subject based on the news reported through various sources over the years and the actual actions of the Iraqis since 1991. I've been following this a long time. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I do not believe that the US will "plant" the evidence, but I don't ignore that it's possible. If you believe the US will plant WoMD to justify the war after the fact, you are refusing to believe the truth if WoMD are actually found because you've already made up your mind that they'll be found no matter what. ;)

[ 03-24-2003, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

The military is now reporting no WoMD at this site. They say that it may have contained them, but they would have been moved before the conflict in the area.

Looks like they missed another easy opportunity to "plant" some evidence. What are they doing?!?!?!?! Waiting until they really find something? ;)

<font color=plum>I know this may seem like an odd question...but do we really need to find WoMD to "justify" the war on Saddam Hussein??

Is the reaction of the Iraqi population not "justification" enough?? If you've watched any news reports over the weekend, then you've seen the footage of Iraqi's running up and shaking the hands of American soldiers. You've also seen the Shiite Muslim slapping the picture of Saddam Hussein with his shoe.

But the most significant testimony I've heard was on the news this morning. NBC was showing footage of American soldiers tending to wounded Iraqi's (not sure if they were soldiers or civilians). One older man said that 5 members of his family had been killed when a mortar shell from the Coalition Forces struck his home....but he was STILL glad that we had come in to take Saddam Hussein out.

How evil does Saddam Hussein have to be for his own citizens to feel it is better for their family to die at the hands of the Coalition Forces than to continue living under his rulership? And - with that being the case - what other "justification" do we really need to end the reign of Saddam Hussein?</font>

Cerek I agree with your assessment, but when WoMD proof is found it will take a LOT of the wind out of international anti-war sails. Sure it won't silence all (many will always be opposed to war under any circumstances) but it will at least validate Pres. Bush's reasons for going to Iraq in the first place.

BUT... I don't believe for a minute it's going to be easy to find the smoking gun. I bet Saddam has his stockpile buried deep and it's going to be mighty tricky to find without human intel (someone telling us where it is). That's why I think the two generals they caught at the site might be more valuable than the site is.

Don't be too sure about taking the wind out of the opposition’s sails simply by finding WoMD. Many people and governments are going to say anything found was planted by Americans.

Heck, the Arab papers, according to Victor David Hanson are already saying that we are using atomic weapons. No matter what happens, there are those who will ascribe the worst motives and basest actions to us. *Shrugs* What are ya gonna do?

<font color=plum>
That is a very valid question? Another question is why did we wait so long? If we take out these dictators when thay are inflicting harm on people than we are perfectly justified in acting like we did in Kosovo. How ever when we wait decades to do something that isn't right to now say we are going to punish you for what you did 20 years ago when we were standing around doing nothing about things being done to people when we knew they were going on and did nothing. Governments lying about their reasons isn't really right either as I don't like being lied to.

I was all for the Afgan, Kosovo, and GW1 but GW2 I am not so sure about. Even though I was against starting the war now that you are their I don't want it to end without taking out the leader.
</font>

[ 03-24-2003, 02:32 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

I think someone should remind Victor Davis Hanson that the British, Australians and the Spanish (Note the presence of some self-satisfied Europeans(!)) are there with the Americans, and that you are *not* alone. Then again, that would rob him of his catchphrase, so I doubt he would ever admit you've got help.

As to the rest of his article, it's mostly valid. One of my fears was that with all the talk of a grateful Iraqi populace and demoralised Iraqi force, that people would expect us to have the whole thing done in a week with no casualties. This is a war, and in war people die, including civilians. It's terrible, but that's the weay it is. It's never easy, and I think coalition foeces are showing a great deal of restraint. After all, it would be easy to bomb the country to ash, but we're not.

And on the nuclear weapons thing - the sad thing is not that papers will lie, but that the citizens of the countries being told this may be ignorant enough to believe it, leading to *nuke the west* campaigns. Sad.

[ 03-24-2003, 02:55 PM: Message edited by: Bardan the Slayer ]

LOL, I think you've got that exactly right. :D

I think someone should remind Victor Davis Hanson that the British, Australians and the Spanish (Note the presence of some self-satisfied Europeans(!)) are there with the Americans, and that you are *not* alone. Then again, that would rob him of his catchphrase, so I doubt he would ever admit you've got help.

As to the rest of his article, it's mostly valid. One of my fears was that with all the talk of a grateful Iraqi populace and demoralised Iraqi force, that people would expect us to have the whole thing done in a week with no casualties. This is a war, and in war people die, including civilians. It's terrible, but that's the weay it is. It's never easy, and I think coalition foeces are showing a great deal of restraint. After all, it would be easy to bomb the country to ash, but we're not.

And on the nuclear weapons thing - the sad thing is not that papers will lie, but that the citizens of the countries being told this may be ignorant enough to believe it, leading to *nuke the west* campaigns. Sad.</font>[/QUOTE]It is indeed a good chest thumping article, and highlights the susceptability of the Arab world to anti-Western propeganda (makes you wonder if we're as susceptable we are to anti-Arab propeganda ;) ). I think what gets me the most isn't the fact that they're spreading this sort of BS, but rather that the Islamic world is eating it up hook, line, and sinker.

If there were Nukes in play there would be no Iraq, and the US would be guilty of a crime as horrible as any in history. They want us to believe the "guilty" part without questioning the fact that Iraq is still alive and kicking... and some out there apparently DO. People never cease to amaze me. *shrug*

Ronn just remember that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, we didn't really land on the moon, the fall of the USSR was really a Trilateral Comission ploy, Elvis, Jance Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, and Jim Morrison are really alive and immortal, after meeting with an ancient Egyptian priestess who had discovered the seceret of immortality and sold it to them for $2 million dollars each. ;) :D

Ronn just remember that there was a second shooter on the grassy knoll, we didn't really land on the moon, the fall of the USSR was really a Trilateral Comission ploy, Elvis, Jance Joplin, Jimmy Hendrix, and Jim Morrison are really alive and immortal, after meeting with an ancient Egyptian priestess who had discovered the seceret of immortality and sold it to them for $2 million dollars each. ;) :D </font>[/QUOTE]Hey, don't make fun of the King. He is alive. I saw him in a 7-11 in '85. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

I have no doubt that some Iraqis are extremely happy to see the Coalition forces arriving in their towns. However I think the media may be overplaying and misrepresenting their reactions. I was watching American ABC the other day, and they were interviewing a journalist in southern Iraq. He was talking about the footage shown of soldiers entering Safwan, and the Iraqis dancing on the streets, tearing pictures down of Saddam, and saying 'Bush good' and so on. But then the soldiers secured the area and moved on, and this journalist and his crew went to Safwan. There was no more dancing; the journalists weren't welcomed with open arms. Instead there was anger, and suspicion, and fear for their future. What were the US going to do, why were they here, how long were they going to stay? It's probably very easy to be jubilant when the 'invading' (to their eyes) army is in your town with all their weapons and might, even if in fact they're not feeling quite so happy.

I have to admit I will be much happier when we find evidince of WOMD. If against all odds they don't (and I just don't see that happening), I have to reluctantly admit I would prefer for them to manufacture proof rather than front the world and say "Whoops, looks like we were wrong". Just my 2c.

I have to admit I will be much happier when we find evidince of WOMD. If against all odds they don't (and I just don't see that happening), I have to reluctantly admit I would prefer for them to manufacture proof rather than front the world and say "Whoops, looks like we were wrong".

I respect honesty above all else. If the coalition governments wishes to play others for fools than fine. But I would have no respect for a government that falsified evidence like that. If they find no evidence than the leader of a genuine government would admit that the action was wrong, apologize, continue to help with reconstruction, and possibly the leader should step down. I wouldn't mind them deflecting the issue with a propaganda campaign of how good it will be with the dictator out of the picture however. However no falsified lies and claims. This is an insult on other countries saying they are too stupid to know the difference and a slap in the face.

[ 03-24-2003, 05:31 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Your completely right, however the justification for the early invasion without backing for the UN was Iraq's possesion of illegal WoMD. If it's found, that Saddam was telling the truth all along, I suspect that Bush will be the one standing trial.

I do agree with you however, that he does need to be removed, and the UN should have done so 12 years ago, holding him accountable for his actions then.

I'd have to agree with you on the honesty, But the US & UK also stated that Human rights violations where also a reason for going in. So when there are tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of Iraqis testifing to the butalities of the Sodamn Insane regime, Who's going to stand up and say the US & UK where wrong to go in because we couldn't find as many WoMD as we thunked there were? WoMD is ok but killing, maiming, and tortureing is not ok to go in, I don't think there will be a leader in the entire world that will be that assinie.
Now this plant we found, we may not be saying we've found any WoMD's there because we know there are other plants that we haven't got yet, and if we let the cat out of the bag Sodamn Insane's people may try to destroy them before we get our hands on them(the Plants). It may be better to let the Iraqis think those dumb Americans can't find anything.

[ 03-24-2003, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

John D I actually think we are basically saying the same thing for the most part. That is why after it is over and they can't find WOMD they can plead it was for humanitarian reason instead of lying. I think most of the world would forgive them for that.

I have actually heard very little that the US & UK stated that Human rights violations are the reason for the war at least not recent ones. If human rights are the issue however several other countries will be next. The media as been swamped with reasons of WOMD, and connections to 9/11 at least these are the reason I hear most. I am all for the removal of Saddham I just wasn't for this war, I was for GW1 because then we had every reason to get him and we should have finished it then. Not so much for GW2 because I have not heard anything that he did recently. Although you will not see me protesting for the war to stop because now that it as begun it will be much worse to stop it before finishing it.

Human rights will be a beautiful side effect of this action, but it was not the reason for the action. The reason was the disarming of Iraq.

I agree, lying would be inexcusible(SP?)

I think you're absolutely right Aelia. I think we have to keep in mind AT ALL TIMES that it is strategically important for the Allied Forces to make use of propaganda. Same goes for the Iraqis of course. The way this war develops hinges (among other things) on how the Iraqi people react to it! If most of their soldiers surrender, if the civillians cooperate, it will make a meaningful difference! So we must keep in mind the governments WILL use propaganda to try and sway the feelings of these people. Today, a British journalist will reveal he has seen many colleagues being taken in by misinformation from the allied soldiers, for instance on the supposed securing of the city Umm Qasr.

I have seen many instances of people on IW falling into the trap with open eyes. I've seen people mention "Iraqis being thrown into plastic shredders by Hussein feet first, so they'd hear their own screams". Cerek mentions an elderly man who'd just lost FIVE members of his family, still happily asserting he's glad. COME ON PEOPLE!!! This is propaganda, pure and simple. We just have to accept it, since this propaganda might make the war easier and with less loss of lives. But don't try to deny it happens!! Seriously, I got tears in my eyes when I noticed how easily this is believed. Do we have any idea what it is to be in constant terror because a bomb may kill you or your family? Doesn't matter that these people will be overjoyed to be librated from Saddam's tyranny: they won't be any less dead if a bomb hits them, or any less devastated if it kills their mother or child. I don't buy that a man who just lost half his family would do ANYTHING other than mourn, be in shock, weep, scream or whatever. He definitely wouldn't say he's still happy, because at least Saddam will be removed. I don't buy that people are regularly fed into shredders. That does not mean in any way that I don't know what horrors Hussein unleashed upon the Iraqis. I don't deny there has been torture, executions, repression, etc. But this is just like the "the English eat our babies" stories the Scots once believed. I've seen people talk about how they saw Iraqis say "they would have committed suicide if the Americans hadn't saved them". Uh, they have been in this dreadful situation for 12 years!! Again I don't deny the gravity of their predicament, I question why they would all of a sudden want to commit suicide now, when they have lived in terror all their lives.
In short, I don't outright dismiss anything I hear reported about the Iraqis - not at all. I am painfully aware of how much they've suffered and don't doubt many are feeling happy and/or hopeful they will be liberated now. But I know it's a fact of war that propaganda is taking place, and I choose to ignore the baby-eating or equivalent nonsense. Since I live in a country that does not actively support the war, though the government HAS decided to give political support now that the war is started, I like to believe I get a slightly (only slightly, mind!!) less "edited" view than say the Iraqis or the Americans, even though I know there is no single news report I should swallow without the least bit of reserve.

[ 03-25-2003, 08:27 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

I have been watching CBC news world and they show people who are scared and mad at the invaders, as well as those who are glad to be free. My perspective from the news source I watch is one of neutrality, that there are Iraqis with feelings of support for both sides. So one of the things I don't understand is how people can believe that everyone in Iraq is going to be dancing and establishing a new government will be a piece of cake. Just because a media source shows everyone happy about being liberated doesn't mean everyone is. I remember the statement that Iraqis who support Saddahm are brainwashed. While some of that is more than likely true, I laugh because the same can be said for many on this side who believe from watching their news that all the people are happy they are being invaded.

Exactly, well put! As I wrote in a different thread, I think that most Iraqis are likely of two minds about this matter. They do want to be rid of Saddam Hussein's regime, but they don't want this war. Most of them will probably accept the lesser of these two evils to defeat the greater. But I doubt they are cheering about it. After all, no matter how much the war may help them, it remains a WAR.

<font color = lightgreen>It probably would have been better for everyone concerned if 1) one of Saddam's generals had been able to stage a successful coup or 2) someone had assassinated Saddam. As it is, we have this little war going on.
Since none of us are receiving high-quality front-line intelligence as it happens (forcing us to rely on second-hand news accounts), I find it better to ignore the up-to-the-minute news flashes and simply check for current events two or three times daily. No, I may not be up-to-date on events as they happen, but since I am not on the front lines I don't need that kind of information immediately.

The chemical plant may or may not have been a weapon factory; time will tell. Saddam's history is sufficient evidence that he is a threat to stability in the Middle East and needs to be removed; no weapons of mass destruction are needed. The propoganda is flowing freely on both sides; letting a day pass before learning of events is helpful to guard against this to some degree (but it would be better were I able to read Arabic *sigh*).</font>

Melusine
There are reports of a civilian uprising in Basra, against the Iraqi regime. Reportedly the Iraqi troops used a mortar on their own citizens to try to quell the revolt. The mortar was reportedly 'neutralised' by British counter-battery fire (gotta love the TPQ radars!)
Do you believe this to be the truth, an outright lie (as the Iraqis claim) or a 'lie' with a kernel of truth at its centre?

Well said, Melusine. [img]smile.gif[/img]