Just heard that in Paris there has been a big protest before the French embassy and they destroyed the McDonald's in Paris.

Hiya dear lady Reeka! Nice to see you ;)
I just watched a news update here in California, and they were showing a street "sit in" protest that had to be disbanded by police in San Francisco. From what I saw, the protestors didn't become violent, but the police did find it necessary to use their batons to some degree to get people to move to more aproppriate areas.

Hiya, Marc! There have been protests in New York, D.C., the Philadelphia, too. I just thought tearing down a McDonald's was a bit.........hhmmm.......just a bit.......you know.

Protests will occur everywhere. When you get that many emotional, frustrated people together, sooner or later it's going to turn into a mob. I doubt the actual intent was to tear down a McDonald's as a protest (unless their food is really bad :D )but things have a way of getting out of hand quite quickly.

I don't agree with the war, but I don't agree with this kind of protest either. I fear this is just the beginning, though.

<font color=skyblue>Didn't police find chemical traces of Ricin or something like that in a subway? I read a brief mention of that on a scrolling marquee on TV during a television show. If France were no threat to Iraq, meaning that they are not supporting our aggressive movements...why is there poison found there? Why not here or in the UK? </font>

Maybe because they were an easier target?

<font color=skyblue>Good point...last place to expect an attack would be the easiest to hit due to less security measures. Are there hightened security measures in place in all nations?</font>

<font color = lightgreen>There are people who would protest the Second Coming, if given half a chance. :rolleyes:

I don't have a problem with anyone who is against the war; I treat you as an adult capable of reaching your own conclusions and having your own opinions. The protests, though, are staged by people who simply want some media attention. I laugh them off as completely unimportant. *yawns at protesters*

Unfortunately, all this bickering and petty spitefulness on both sides, both French and American, has dealt a serious blow to the diplomatic relations between two countries who have been allies for more than a century. It will take decades for the bad blood to work itself out....*sigh*</font>

Relic, the police started arresting them because the idiots felt it was alright to throw rocks, bottles, and other trash at them. Nothing gives these people the right to break the law. I think they should all be charged with assaulting police officers. Let them spend some real time in jail. Let them suffer for their cause.

This reminds me of the old "fighting for peace is like fuc..... * [img]graemlins/stop.gif[/img] * ;)

I'm all for peaceful demonstrations and have been on a few myself but resorting to violence and attacking police ECT gets up my nose. What will turning the march into a riot prove that a peaceful demonstration won’t?

[ 03-21-2003, 03:14 AM: Message edited by: wellard ]

Ok, need some explanation there.

First of all there were protests all over the world yesterday, even in the US, not only in France. I still don't understand why it seems you guys always blame France and only France. But anyway.

Second, a MacDonalds got a bit broken, thaz true. Nothing really bad though, they didn't set it on fire or anything. What do you want ? MacDonalds are one of the biggest american symbol there.

Then, about the ricin, I heard that too, some has been found in a railway station in the boxes where you put your suitcases (sorry dont know the english word). So maybe it was just being put there and the guys were waiting to take it to UK or something.
Please tell me what relation you come up with between Iraq and Ricin ? You are aware that, despite what your govt is saying, there is no link between Al-Qaida and Iraq eh ? You do know that Saddam and BenLaden kinda hate each other right ?
I'd like to add that we, in France, have problems with Terrorist movement from Algeria and that has nothing to do with Iraq. And also, anyone can make ricin, it's not an islamist-only product.
You draw conclusions a bit too fast for my taste.

Well said, Masklinn. I get the impression over the last few weeks from reading posts around here that the US media (or the part most people watch here anyways) is rather biased and one-sided in its reports concerning France, blowing anything relating to France out of proportion and context...

[warning - lighthearted sarcasm ahead, don't take it too literally or seriously ;) ]
France is not a country full of Anti-Christs. They will not go out to eat your children at night. They do not hate your freedom nor support terrorism. They do not worship nor support Saddam Hussein or Bin Laden. All they did (or technically speaking, the French Government) was (strongly) disagree with the US's foreign politics, nothing more, nothing less.

And protests get out of hand occasionally all around the world... But somehow whatever newsstation Reeka was watching decided to highlight some minor damage to a McDonalds just because it happened in France - If this had happened in any other country, it probably wouldn't even have made the news. Don't be fooled by news broadcasts, most of the media stations are trying to bring the news the way they want you to see it.

of course this goes for both the American and the European media; the latter isn't completely unbiased about its reports about the US either. Most newsstations around the world tend to claim objectivity, while they're most likely not. Their political preferences may definitely influence the way of bringing the news or which news will and which won't be broadcast, even while they may not even realize they're not 100% objective. I for one don't think that complete objectivity exists in the first place when it comes to reporting news of a political nature, but what do I know. ;)

Oh, and my above post doesn't mean I'm not condoning any violence during peace demonstrations, because in my opinion, rioting during demonstrations is useless and inexcuseable... But it seems I've just gone waaaaay off-topic. [img]redface.gif[/img]

[ 03-21-2003, 05:50 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Nicely said, Azred! I noticed several of the American protestors had scarves over their faces, though. As if they wanted to make a scene but not take responsibility for their actions.

Of course the McDonald's is an 'American' symbol, but what I wonder is who owns the one that got trashed? Was it a franchise owned by French citizens, if so it's a shame their compatriots didn't think about that before damaging the business. If not, it's understandable they chose that as a target of aggression, but I don't particularly think it makes much sense to do violence in the name of 'peace'. :(

Speaking of which, I agree, those protestors in SF were completely out of line, from what I saw they were definitely looking for attention and in some cases even appeared to WANT to be arrested. (Groj, I watched that American news coverage yesterday and believe it or not, they showed something like six US protests and then showed protests in The Phillipines, France, England, Jordan and several other countries, so I'd have to say it was reasonable from the standpoint of showing that there were protests in the US as well as other countries.

What I don't understand is why people who want peace and 'getting along diplomatically' stage violent protests or let their protesting turn ugly and violent . There was one in my own area that seemed peaceful enough, but they blocked traffic on a major highway and caused several minor accidents....seems the protestors thought lying down in a major road near a heavily trafficked part of the city was a cool move... :rolleyes: , luckily the injuries and property damages were minor, but it could have been much worse. It's like they only care about being in the news and making their words heard...but what comes through to me, is that they are thoughtless, careless and self-absorbed because their actions harmed someone else.

Okies... But in that case I don't really understand why Reeka's first post only named the one in Paris; the topic title is a bit deceiving as well. As if protesting the war is restricted to France alone...

[ 03-21-2003, 08:35 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Thank you for that feedback khazadman, the news clip I saw didn't mention anything at all about the San Francisco sit in protestors becoming violent. Though they definately did show the problems at Chicago.

I think the focus on France is because they are seen to be the leader of the anti-war movement. The French government is the most vocal, so it gets the most press.

Probably, Ronn. That and most likely the novelty of the target... well, it's the first MickeyD's I've heard of being attacked in protest of this war to date!

Quoted by Masklinn:
<font color=skyblue>I am completely aware that the Al-Quaida group are separate from Iraq, for we are in Iraq to take out the Al-Quaida, and return Iraq to Iraqis...I never said they were the same...but when referring to them, one is accustomed to name their current location of residency. Still, I guess I should use their group's name in future discussion.

I was unaware that Bin Laden and Saddam were not buddies. My reports say that they are friends, your's says they are not....I guess only those two men know for sure. ;)

I was unaware that France had trouble from Algeria. I seldom listen to the news, except in these last days, because I have a two year old that I love more than TV.

I am sorry that my conclusions are bitter to your taste. Try me with a bit of ketchup!</font>

Yep...as the old saying goes, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease."

I'm with Cloudy. When we were watching all of the protests, the one in France wherein people were vandalizing the McDonalds seemed, to us, to be one of the stupidest! That would have been like us going down to a local store bearing a French name and destroying it, even though it was owned by a neighbor. Pretty stupid way to make a point IMNSHO.

RE: the rest of the protests...Well, I am a firm supporter of people's right to peacefully protest. And, to be fair, there were LOTS of peaceful protests, and they got their message out without vandalizing anything, or throwing rocks, or disrupting traffic, etc. Unfortunately, very few of those actually got any press time. It was only the ones where people were, lets be brutally honest, STUPID that got the press.

One last thing...

Now, I dont mean to get off on a [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img] here, but...

I have nothing but respect for those who are willing to stand up for what they believe in, and voice their opinions, even when I dont agree with them. But, if they're going to do it, they should at least have the courage to show their faces and be proud of their stand. The people in San Fran(and elsewhere) who's faces were covered by masks/scarves are COWARDS, pure and simple. If they dont even have the guts to show their faces and stand up for what they believe in, then they dont deserve to have the right to say it!

That's just my opinion...I could be wrong.

That actually happened?? Yikes. Did they have any decent reason or excuse to wear those masks, were they supposed to be a symbol of anything? Because if that's not the case, I actually have to agree with you...

Yep. They were showing footage from NY and San Fran, and there were several 'activists' out there who were wearing either foll face masks/ski masks or scarves that covered their whole faces. They tended to be the ones throwing things and fighting with the police. There was one woman, wearing a ski cap, and a fleece scarf almost completely covering her face, and dark glasses, shouting about Bush being a warmonger...then later, she was one of the people it showed throwing a bottle at the police!

AFAIK they were wearing them simply to avoid being seen. There didn't appear to be any uniformity to them, just cowards covering up their faces and being brutal, violent, lawbreakers. Like I said Groj, I have a lot of respect for the people that stood on the Mall in Washington DC, or the ones who stood near the Towers...they had peaceful demonstrations and made their point. But the a$$holes who assaulted the police, or the McDonalds, or were doing nothing more than attention getting are worthy of nothing more than contempt IMO.

Sorry Larry but you are way off here. Al Quada do not operate to any great extent in Iraq. Saddam does have close links to other Middle East terror organisations. The people we are going to get out are Saddam Hussein and his cronies.

Bin Laden has a fundamental hatred of Hussein. He classes him as a secular fascist and wants him out as mucjh as the US do.

Link

[ 03-21-2003, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

This is the report from the BBC on the first day of protests. You'll note that France hardly merits a mention.

Mass arrests at US peace demo

Police in San Francisco have arrested 1,025 people during violence at an anti-war demonstration.

Protesters blocked streets leading from the city's Oakland Bay Bridge, while small groups of people clashed with police and threw debris.

Tens of thousands of people joined demonstrations across the US.

There were huge protests across the world on Thursday, with violence in several countries including Belgium, Egypt, Spain, India and Switzerland.

"This is no ordinary day," said Jason Mark, a protester in San Francisco. "America is different today.

"We've just launched an unprovoked, unjust war."

Anti-war demonstrators in New York completely blocked New York's Broadway for two blocks below 42nd Street, while hundreds of protesters gathered in Washington and at university campuses around the country.

Hundreds of students at students at Harvard University walked out of classes at noon, and at least 1,500 people took part in a rally.

Some of the biggest outbursts of opposition to the war have been in Europe.

In Brussels, police used water cannon and tear gas to disperse hundreds of protesters who were throwing stones outside the US embassy.

Organisers said 3,000 people joined the protest, though police put the figure at 1,500.

Arab nations angry

Egyptian riot police used water canon and batons to beat back crowds throwing rocks and trying to advance on the US embassy in Cairo.

"We just wanted to tell the Americans they are no longer welcome here," said student leader Fadlallah Abu Wafia.

Protesters unfurled banners reading "Shame on USA" and "Vive la France, Arab governments go to hell".

Much of the anger was directed against Arab leaders for not opposing the US action.

In the Syrian capital, Damascus, demonstrators waved Iraqi flags and denounced US President George W Bush as a war criminal.

Crowds tried to advance on the US embassy before being forced back.

They also marched on the Egyptian embassy, and the embassy of Qatar - the host of the US Central Command for the duration of the war.

Police in the Jordanian capital Amman used force to break up an anti-war march by lawyers belonging to the Jordanian Bar Association.

At least four of the lawyers were injured, needing hospital treatment.

Turkish protesters marched through central Ankara, where the parliament has voted to allow US planes to use Turkish airspace for the war on Iraq.

Children on the march

At least 100,000 people marched through the Greek capital, Athens, many of them school pupils.

"We left class and asked our professors to join us," said Lefteris Faniotakis, a 15-year old student heading a group of 100 schoolmates.

Tens of thousands of school and university students in Italy staged spontaneous rallies in towns and cities all over the country.

Swiss police used tear gas against hundreds of protesters, also mainly students, who marched on the US diplomatic mission in Geneva.

Spanish police fired rubber bullets at protesters in Madrid. The demonstration, protesting against the government's support for the war, included well-known actors and celebrities.

Eggs were thrown at the British consulate in Venice and police used teargas to disperse demonstrators.

More students staged a sit-in outside Nato headquarters in Naples.

Germany, France and Britain also saw big demonstrations, many involving schoolchildren.

There have also been widespread protests in Asia.

There was violence in Calcutta, in eastern India, when about 1,000 protesters tried to storm a US cultural centre. At least 12 police officers and six protesters were injured, a senior police official told Reuters news agency.

In Indonesia, 2,000 people took part in a march in Jakarta in support of the government's call for an end to the war.

And many anti-war demonstrations have been held in Australia - which has committed warships, aircraft and 2,000 troops to the conflict.

Sorry Larry but you are way off here. Al Quada do not operate to any great extent in Iraq. Saddam does have close links to other Middle East terror organisations. The people we are going to get out are Saddam Hussein and his cronies.

Bin Laden has a fundamental hatred of Hussein. He classes him as a secular fascist and wants him out as mucjh as the US do.</font>[/QUOTE]Even worse Osama called Saddam a "Bad Moslim" which in Osama's eyes is worse then a non-moslim

I know bush kept saying that Al-Quiada was operative in Iraq and that osama and saddam were helping one another but that's pure ignorance of bush' advisors
or just another lie for the proganda war

[ 03-21-2003, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: Rikard_OHF ]

I work in downtown San Francisco and was right in the thick of it yesterday. I had a chance to go out and observe several of the demonstrations yesterday and did not see ANY violence. Cloudy, the point of getting arrested is that they are performing civil disobedience. The whole point of the protest is to draw attention to their feelings on the issue. Remember that showing 10 mins of footage of peaceful protesters is not going to get the TV news program any ratings. But if they can find the 1% of the crowd that is itching for a fight they can get some footage that will get airplay. My favorite protest group I saw yesterday was actually right in front the building I work in. A group of about 20 people were doing 'Yoga for Peace' [img]smile.gif[/img]

Look, I am all for free speech and peaceful protest, but these Peace-Mongers paraded about Chicago during rush hour last night and shut down main arteries - such as Lake Shore Drive and Michigan Avenue (the Magnificent Mile) for HOURS. I'm sorry but that kept a lot of people from work, a lot of people from their families, and generally pissed us all off. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

Thousands marced. As of 10 pm last night, most had gone home, but a few hundred who lingered eventually were *not* allowed to leave. The police herded them in and started arresting them. For fairly-levelled charges - such as blocking traffic. Now, they could have begun such arrests hours earlier, but only did so when some people just refused to go home.

Now, I saw the footage, and while at least a few cops made more than necessary use of their night sticks, I certainly feel the protestors got what they deserved. They tied me up in traffic for over half an hour through a single city block. Look, I'm not one to whine, but their rights end at impenging my rights.

I saw one guy who had used electricity (black) tape to write "F#$% Bush" on his shirt. Since I was sitting still in traffic anyway, I decided to let my window down and proceed to berate him for his ignorance while complimenting him on the cerebral nature of his profoundly wise sentiment. :D

A final note: economics. The hundreds of extra police officers in riot gear the city must field to deal with this. The diversion of the city's buses to get protestors to and from areas. The thousands of high paid professionals who lost an hour or more out of their day whilst sitting stuck in their car on a 8-lane highway with peaceniks dancing in and among the cars. In short, these peace-mongers brought a lot of economic damage to Chicago last night. I think if you're going to take from the public in such a way, you should ante up the costs of your activities. Or be summarily executed, of course. ;) (joke!)

Oh, and already early this morning they're blocking traffic around the Dirksen federal building - in the heart of the city. I had to re-route myself on my walk to work. Very frustrating.

[ 03-21-2003, 11:02 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

I have to agree, war-mongers do not make any mess in their own country. They just encourage bigger mess in another :D

On the Osama/Saddam topic : Saddam made a laic state and Osama is a muslim zealot. That cant fit.
I agree they both hold a grief toward US, for different reasons. They have only that in common.

Other then the fact that Bush's war-mongering with Iraq has already cost the US economy about a $1,000,000,000,000.00 (a trillion) dollars according to a report released today.

Well, here's what I'm talking about:
Now, if their goal is to stop my "business as usual" is it okay if my goal is to punch them in the nose when/if they succeed??? :D

Oh, and here are the protestors in traffic:
This just goes beyond the right to voice their opinion. They have NO RIGHT to force me to listen.

Regarding the SUV sign: talk about mincing issues. I'm embarrassed to agree with that person on anything now. These wackos give good causes (e.g. environmentalism) a bad name.

[ 03-21-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Hey you are most likely correct TL. I think all those demonstrators that did the same thing during the Vietnam War and the Civil Rights struggle during the 50's/60's should have just stayed home and not forced anyone to listen to their message either.

<font color=skyblue>Thanks for clearing up my confusion and providing a link to reference, Donut. That is what this forum is about I guess...sharing knowledge and helping one another where one may be lacking. I am glad I asked the question, or I would not have learned. Too bad some took the question a bit harsh, and responded in like manner.

We have to remember that we are on different places of intellegence here, and questons should be asked without fear of resentment or such.</font>

Now, if their goal is to stop my "business as usual" is it okay if my goal is to punch them in the nose when/if they succeed??? :D </font>[/QUOTE]Business as usual in Iraq has certainly been shut down, I would guess that alot of Iraqi's feel the same way you do, they cant goto work or school or do anything else due to fear of bombing. You didn't ask for protestors and they didnt ask for war. Who is worst off?

Well, Chewbacca and Rokenn, if those civilians weren't embracing our troops with open arms, I'd say you have a point. But they are, so you don't.

But, I attack the very hypocricy in holding a "War Protest" that in and of itself turns violent. And there is no doubt that keeping me from living my life and avoiding the war on a daily basis is violence against me. Surely you do not support their right to shut down cities. Do you?

Let us not forget that during Vietnam those protestors turned violent against our troops when they returned home. Their war protests turned very violent. Do you support this too?

I never heard Bush say Osama and Saddam were helping one another. ;)

I never heard Bush say Osama and Saddam were helping one another. ;) </font>[/QUOTE]It was US State Department spokesman Richard Boucher who said this on February 12th after hearing one of Bin Laden's tapes.

The right of protestors to protest does not extend into a right for them to obstruct non-protestors lives. They are not allowed to jump up and down on the hood of my car while screaming look at me, and likewise, the are not entitled to block my way to work, or anywhere for that matter.

Your going to condemn an entire movement because of the violent actions of a small minority? I suppose I could do the same thing with the pro-war people, given the petty and not so petty hate crimes that their 'side' have done verses people of middle-eastern and French descent.

Also a large number of the signs I've seen at protests against the war are in support of the troops. I have heard no one condemning the troops for being their. Their statements are directed toward the administration that sent them over there.

Well, he was speaking out of turn. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

The tapes showed Osama's support for the people of Iraq, and encouraged them to fight against the infidels. At least that's what I heard. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well first off TL,shutting down traffick for a few hours is hardly violent and I discredit any civil disobediance that is. The spirit of Gandi and Martin Luther King calls for non-violent demonstartion and protest. Yes I support non-violent demonstrations and specific acts of non-violent civil disobediance to protest evil and injustice in the spirit of great leaders of our time.

Secondly, we have yet to see how welcoming the Iraqis living in the major urban areas will be to invaders, considering lifelong indocrination to Saddam and his regime.

Also it is pretty easy for a commoner/peasant to put on a happy face when armed soldiers are occupying their city and any protest might lead to detention or even death. Armed rule is the only rule in Iraq.

Thirdly it was a minority of vietnam war protestors that took their political frustrations out on the troops that were just following orders. It is very easy to discredit this sort of protest.

It should be noted that alot of Vietnam vets joined the protesting after their tour of duty. Thier first-hand expirience with the atrocities of war lent alot of credibility to the pro-peace movement and still do today.

And you didn't answer my question...Who is worst off? A bunch of Americans sitting in traffick a little longer or Iraqi children hiding in shelters or living in refugee camps?