<font color=orange>Debka is reporting that US Marines and elements of the British 1st Armored Division have crossed the border and are advancing on an Iraqi Military installation. They posted this around 8:00am EST. They are also reporting the the US Army 3rd ID has moved into the DMZ between Iraq and Kuwait. Foxnews is also reporting this. Strike aircraft have launched from the USS Abraham Lincoln. All this from www.debka.com! </font>

Yep, that's the same source that's claiming that vice-president Tareq Aziz has defected (see my earlier made post). We'll know soon enough whether it's a trustworthy newssource or not.

Let the slaughter commence!

Any bets on how much of Iraq's populations will survive?

CNN hasn't picked it up yet, though Sky News is reporting it as breaking news...

That's rude, even if it is sarcasm. :(

BLAH BLAH BLAH!! Oh, I'm sorry...I tuned you out again. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Have anything *useful* to comment about, ON TOPIC?

Going to check the news source now SirT. I have been wondering exactly when it'd start. And, about 8AMEST is a pretty good time for our troops to attack, it's the middle of the night in Iraq.

<font color=orange>Reuters is also saying allied forces have moved into the DMZ, on the Kuwaiti side, but have not crossed. The DMZ is only 3 miles wide. They are also saying that their reporters are still in the holding areas, some 20 miles south of the border.</font>

http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.j...toryID=2406908

BLAH BLAH BLAH!! Oh, I'm sorry...I tuned you out again. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Have anything *useful* to comment about, ON TOPIC?

Going to check the news source now SirT. I have been wondering exactly when it'd start. And, about 8AMEST is a pretty good time for our troops to attack, it's the middle of the night in Iraq.</font>[/QUOTE]<font color=orange> Actually it's about 4:00 pm. They are 8 hours (I think)ahead of us. It should now be dusk over there.</font>

Ah, my bad. I dont have a globe handy. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D *scampers off to find a globe with time zones marked*

Anyway...I just saw THIS on www.foxnews.com

EDIT: Pruning the Quote Trees

[ 03-19-2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

<font color=orange>If you have nothing better to add to the discussion then go away. We need no trolling here!</font>

I'll take that bet I say 99.95% of the civilain Population, 100% of surrendering troops, 0% of troops that do not surrender.

TOUCHE'!!!

A hit, A very palpable hit!

EDIT: Pruning the Quote Trees

[ 03-19-2003, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

<font color=orange>If you have nothing better to add to the discussion then go away. We need no trolling here!</font></font>[/QUOTE]We must have very different views on trolling then, because I think you guys are being more than a trifle intolerant of his views. The suject of the topic is "Apparently it has started" and it is a war we are talking about is it not? I think he is making valid statements and asking valid questions and getting shouted down. Are we suggesting that peace protesters no longer deserve a place on the forum simply because the war has begun?

I guess they feel the same way the President does (see sig quote).

I see what you mean - the old "My way or the highway" philosophy huh - are you suggesting we should sink to that level too?

Davros Davros Davros...*shakes head* You know better. There are better, and more eloquent, ways to voice a protest, rather than simply coming in, dropping a grenade, and going out. That is *exactly what Indemaijinj did. If he wants to debate/discuss, perhaps he should do so, by either posting ON TOPIC, or posting his own thread.

Sir T, John D, Ronn, and myself were right on target with our comments towards Indemaijinj. His post is, quite simply, trolling.

No Nachy - your opinion is that it was trolling - I have expressed another.

Hmmm...well, since I'm one of the 'they', I guess I'll answer. First off, see my last post to Davros. Secondly, noone is telling Indemaijinj that he cant have an opinion, just that his POST was trollish and inappropriate to THIS THREAD. Perhaps, if he feels that strongly, he should post his own thread and wait for a response. Hmmmm?

EDIT: Pruning the Quote Trees

[ 03-19-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

I'll take that bet I say 99.95% of the civilain Population, 100% of surrendering troops, 0% of troops that do not surrender.</font>[/QUOTE]I get some of the action:
I predict about 99.995% or better civillian survival or around 1000 or less casualties from Allied fire...

That goes to 99% or hundreds of thousands if you included Iraqi army killing their own people. IMO it's far more likely that Iraqi civillians will be killed by Iraqi fire than by Allied fire.

And further drops to 90% or potentially millions if Iraqis kill their own people with WOMDs, which is also a distinct possibility.

True. And, since it's getting us *both* off topic, I'll shut up about it. :D

Erm...back on topic: All I see on the major news websites is that troops are moving into the DMZ...mostly it seems like staging for the actual attack. The only place I can find mention of actual bombing is on the Debka site. Is everyone else finding the same?

"Let the slaughter commence" and asking for odds on how many Iraqis will die isn't a dissenting opinion, it's sarcasm... pure and simple. Sacasm that suggests we're all up for some good old fashioned slaughter.

Obviously he has a dissenting opinion and is welcome to it, but he didn't express it very well. That post was not trying to discuss a viewpoint reasonably, and it's in very poor taste considering the fact that people will be dying.

I expect those who oppose action to continue opposing it right here in this very forum, just as opposition to action in Afghanistan continued after action commenced, but I expect more from those who oppose action than that tripe.

[ 03-19-2003, 10:32 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

edit: deleted since this has been resolved

[ 03-19-2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Rokenn ]

Edited - Nach was happy enough to drop it so I will too [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-19-2003, 10:41 AM: Message edited by: Davros ]

Rokken, I don't think anyone was doing any "backslapping" here prior to that post. They were discussing the news, and posting links that indicate units are moving into position.

I did not see one single, "Woo-Hoo, lets kick that ass!" post, nor anything close to it. ;)

[ 03-19-2003, 10:37 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Indemaijinj, I respect your opinions but this was worded in a disrespectful way to your fellow posters. Taken as is, it implies they are in favor of 'slaughtering' others, which I don't believe is the case. In future, try to make your point without accusing others of things they haven't actually taken credit for.

Davros, Nacht, etc...let's stop the ot quibbles, ok? This forum is going to be a lot more touchy/heated and heavily trafficked now and we don't need people sniping at one another over every little thing.

Nacht, cut out the excess quote trees, please.

On topic: I'm sad it has to come to this, but I see that 12 yrs of diplomacy has merely giving Saddam time to hide things and thumb his nose at people. Let's all remember that there WILL be casualties on all sides and the biggest tragedy of all is that it has come to war. Nobody really wins in a war. It's a matter of degrees of loss, in my opinion.

EDIT: OK EVERYONE LISTEN UP! Get on the topic of the war commencing and troops moving etc, and stop taking pot shots at EACH OTHER!

That's not what this forum is about and sometimes I sincerely believe that people find it easier to take shots at one another and make fun of or insult details of someone else's posts rather than discuss things responsibly and seriously... (this is a general comment, so nobody should be wondering if I mean them personally!). Almost every thread degenerates into a 'pissing' contest btwn opposing viewpoints these days and it's not only not necessary, it's bound to be worse as things get more intense on the international front.

Please re-read the two sticky notes at the top of the War forum page and THINK about the things posted there. Remember, we are NOT each other's enemies, no matter what our personal world-views.

[ 03-19-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

EDITED: As it's no longer an issue. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-19-2003, 10:50 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

"Let the slaughter commence" isn't even a subtle attempt at sarcasm... and THAT is what got the trolling response. To bring up the likelyhood of casualties as a means to point out the horror of war is perfectly valid, but the use of sarcasm is IMO an inappropriate way to discuss such a serious subject. The question is valid and I responded to it as such above, the sarcasm is invalid and others responded to that as such also.

On-subject - I question the validity of debka.com, there's a lot of "top secret" stuff being disclosed on that page that NO other sources are even mentioning as a possiblity (Like that Turkey has already opened it's airspace to overflights), not to mention that they aren't listing sources for ANYTHING other than saying "our sources report that...".

[ 03-19-2003, 10:44 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

Davros, the post was let the slaughter commence and ask if there were any "bets" about how many civilians would survive. If that's not trivializing the issue in a completely rude way, I'm not sure what is.

Might is right? How does that play into this? No one is saying he can't have an opinion. I think we are all expected to temper our words here, so as not to be offensive. Isn't that how it works?

I can't answer the question he asked because I'm not sure what the "odds" being given on Iraqi deaths are, and I'm not sure what the minimum "bet" is. Maybe a Las Vegas or Montecarlo website might have the answer to the question he asked, but no one here does. :(

[ 03-19-2003, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Yes Ma'am, on both counts. Pruned the Quote Trees, and am shutting up now re: Trolling.

Nachtrafe, Thoran, and Ronn.
You may want to review the previous page. Both Davros and I have let the issue drop...

Hmmmm...I sort of got that feeling too. They seemed to quote a lot of mysterious 'sources', but provide no actual proofs. I've been looking at CNN, Fox, The NY Times, The London Times, and several other smaller news sites, and Debka seems to be the only one actually reporting *ACTIVE* military action, rather than just staging.

Erm, Yeah, me too. See above. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

Read my last post of the previous page please.

I realize tempers and feelings are running high... but in liu of taking verbal shots at one another, I would appreciate it if the thread went back on topic or you took this to email and pm.

PS, thanks Rokenn... I appreciate your help and willingness to let it go.

We're here to talk and exchange views, not tear into one another for the audacity of thinking differently. It takes all kinds of people to make the world go 'round. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-19-2003, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Cloudbringer ]

Why is the title of this thread all written in capslock ?

I saw Cloudy's post, but not until after my last one. :D

Don't you get started, too...lol. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img] :D

I have agreed a truce with Nachy to drop the subject and get back on topic, but as Ronn is a good friend I have taken the time to answer his questions.

Damn - this post is moving much faster than I can type :D - I have explained my feelings to my good friend Ronn, but if anyone thinks my last post is inflaming things again just when we appear to have got a cap on it - well just let me know and I will go delete it.

Cheers all - time for a cup of hot Milo [img]smile.gif[/img]

Dropped as soon as I read the moderators comments (which was after my last post... fast growing thread!)

Ok I stop.
I m just being curious you know... ;)