As I was getting dressed this morning, I heard this on the radio, and it really touched me, so I thought I'd share. [img]smile.gif[/img]

The new single by Darryl Worley, called Have You Forgotten? is a fantastic song, and reminds us Americans what we're really fighting for. You can listen to a stream of the song HERE on his official site.

I've cut/pasted the lyrics below, in case you cant listen to the stream.

<center>***********************************************
HAVE YOU FORGOTTEN?
***********************************************</center>

I hear people saying we don't need this war
I say there's some things worth fighting for
What about our freedom and this piece of ground?
We didn't get to keep 'em by backing down
They say we don't realize the mess we're getting in
Before you start preaching
Let me ask you this my friend

CHORUS 1
Have you forgotten how it felt that day
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away?
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside
Going through a living hell
And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

They took all the footage off my T.V.
Said it's too disturbing for you and me
It'll just breed anger that's what the experts say
If it was up to me I'd show it every day
Some say this country's just out looking for a fight
After 9/11 man I'd have to say that's right

CHORUS 1
Have you forgotten how it felt that day
To see your homeland under fire
And her people blown away?
Have you forgotten when those towers fell?
We had neighbors still inside
Going through a living hell
And you say we shouldn't worry 'bout Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

I've been there with the soldiers
Who've gone away to war
And you can bet they remember
Just what they're fighting for

CHORUS 2
Have you forgotten all the people killed?
Some went down like heroes in that Pennsylvania field
Have you forgotten about our Pentagon?
All the loved ones that we lost
And those left to carry on
Don't you tell me not to worry about Bin Laden
Have you forgotten?

Have you forgotten?
Have you forgotten?

We haven't forgotten bombarding the marriage ceremony neither...

Just wanted to say that these types of songs aren't my kinda thing in general, and so it (being the lyrics) doesn't move me one little bit. I can understand (or try to) that others are moved by this text, but I for one am not.

Well, that was uneccessary. How about you do a bit of research on things you critize, you might be suprised at what you find.

Yeah I just heard about the song today, Nachtrafe, thanks for suplying the lyrics.

[ 03-05-2003, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: Iron_Ranger ]

Bad things happen in WAR that is why you don't jump into one lightly, and certainly not against a country that has a much better military. There's an old saying "Does a King with 10,000 troops go to war against a King with 20,000 troops? Or does he while the other is still far off seek peace?"

And that is why you don't jump into war lightly? Tell me why America is so anxious to invade Iraq? Or isn't that a war? I can tell you for one thing that it they aren't simply invading Iraq 'because there are weapons of mass-destruction there'. This is just America trying to show the world that they are indeed the strongest.

The argument for Iraq having weapons of mass-destruction isn't so flawless as you all think it is. Why is Israel not invaded? They have weapons of mass-destruction? Those weapons were even supplied by America! And what do they use them for? Killing innocent Palestines! Kinda one-sided don't you think?

First off the USA is NOT anxious to jump into war IT HAS BEEN ALLMOST 18 months since our country was attacked! By no stretch of any imagination can that be considered anxious! For 18 months the USA has danced around any invasion. You bet your sweet pippy it will be a war! And people will die make no mistake about it!
You logic about Israel is flawed allmost beyond belief! NAME ONE time Israel has ever use it's WoMD! Then go talk to the Kurd civilians that were killed in 1991 after the Gulf war by the Iraqis! I saw the bodies of babies killed by Iraqis chemical attacks plastered all over the TV. Why do you think there is a Northern NO-fly zone in Iraq? Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran? There is a far cry from having WoMD's and Using them on civilains!!!!!
Israel did not get any WoMD from the USA, they got them on their own, you know the old fashion way. They stole a ship loaded with fisionable matterial, the ship sailed from Norway I believe so if you want to blame somebody blame the Nowegians(SP?) for not having enough security on a ship of fisionable matterial.

Nobody says that Iraq is innocent. We say that USA isn't the saint neither. I've seen the leafless jungles of Vietnam. I we seen the babies of Hiroshima...

Come on now Link, innocent palestinians ? Give me a break. Every time Israel attacks Gaza or some other Palestinian territory, it's retaliation. Like yesterday, when one of your so called innocent Palestinians blew up a bus, and killed 15 evil bloodthirsty Zionists. Arn't they allowed to defend themselves ?

And why isn't the US invading Israel ? Simple, Israel is an ally, and most defenitely not a threat to the world.

I take you have seen the bodies of the kurds and Iraqi sivlians as well then? Or the images of 9/11 for that matter.

For my agurment about Hiroshima, go to the war forum. I posted it there not too long ago.

There are NO innocents in a combat zone, That ain't pretty, or fair but nothing in life is. Nothing personal but are you comparing leaves to humans? "Hale" I'll bet that allmost every year here in the USA alone more acerage is lost to forest fires then the total acerage defoliated in the entire Vietnam war. And Nobody ever said the USA was a saint or perfect.

THAT'S your excuse? what does Iraq have to do with the 9/11 terrorist attacks?
oh, wait... i forget who i'm talking to. i can understand how someone can be conviced the american propaganda machinery, while trying to get support for it's invasion of another country, would be closer to the truth than independant media across the world...

People people calm down, this was thread was made to celebrate a song that a person liked. Personally like some of you who have posted I think the song is a right-wing pro-war pos. But then some of the conservatives on this board would think the same if one of us posted an anti-war song. It's music people [img]tongue.gif[/img]
Live and let live, if you want to go balance the odds post one of your own but don't derail this thread.
I suggest a good listening to "Fortunate Son" by Credence Clearwater Revival. :D

Or even better, Aenima, by Tool.
Learn to swim! ;)

That's what we need. A good natural disaster of global proportions to stop all of these pathetic humans banging their chests and crying their hearts out. S'been a while since a major comet's hit, surely we're due for one...

Because we (In what has to be one of the dumbest moves of the last 15 years) let Iraq keep its helocopters, which allowed them to crush the rebellion in the north. The Northern No-fly zone was a patch applied to a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Iran lost suprisingly few civilials.
Also, I think a country who's primary method of attack is the humanwave shouldn't compain when people get killed.

Isreal got its nuclear weapons from France. The only thing it got from Norway was some heavy water, which Norway sold to France, and then France secretly sent to Israel. I have no idea where the whole "stole a ship" came from.

Or even better, Aenima, by Tool.
Learn to swim! ;)

That's what we need. A good natural disaster of global proportions to stop all of these pathetic humans banging their chests and crying their hearts out. S'been a while since a major comet's hit, surely we're due for one...</font>[/QUOTE]And even then people wouldn't stop fighting. Ever seen Waterworld ? :D

Indeed, so it would seem that the best idea would be to just get rid of all of the people...
Ever seen 12 monkeys? ;)

This is going to the War Forum.

Would those of you who are new to IW or to General Discussions or the War Forum please review the ToS and remember that at IW we expect members to treat each other with respect. I want to make sure that everyone realizes that flaming or outright baiting someone to argue in a non-respectful way is not acceptable.

Please also note that do NOT refer to individuals here as if they were the sole representatives of their homeland and it's political agenda. Therefore you should avoid saying "<font color="white">YOU</font> did this,that..etc" when what you mean is "Your <font color="white">goverment </font> chose to do this, that... etc"

This is a message board filled with individuals from all over the world. We have a unique opportunity to share our thoughts and cultures and in doing so, we enrich each other's lives. If we hold another responsible for the acts of all his nation, we are doing him or her a grave disservice. And missing out on a chance to learn and grow in an international community.

You don't have to agree with everyone, just be reasonably polite when disagreeing. [img]smile.gif[/img]

ACK!!! [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] Guys, I just wanted to post a song that inspired me, not start a freakin war! Lighten up!!

Couple of points:

Vedran: That was totally unnecessary! It was also sort of pointless. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about re: a wedding. If you could give actual *DETAILS* instead of just coming in, dropping a grenade, and running, then I might be able to answer you!

Link: No worries. We're all entitled to our opinion. The song touched me emotionally, and I wanted to share it for those that were like minded. That's all.

Iron Ranger: Thanks. [img]smile.gif[/img] I rather liked the song, and it definitely hit home with me, so I posted about it. Glad you liked the lyrics. [img]smile.gif[/img] I think that this CD is going to be the next one that I buy. That, and Aaron Tippin's new one, with Where the Stars and Stripes, and the Eagle Flies.

Mr Harris Sir: Interesting quote, and a salient point. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Link(Again): *SIGH* Why is it that half the threads lately seem to get constantly hijacked into debates on the war? As to your 'points'. BLAH BLAH BLAH! We've all heard this arguement before. "America is a big bully and it's all about the oil." *Whatever*. Your 'points' have been thoroughly rebuked elsewhere, and I feel no need to do so *again*. This war *is* about WoMD, and removing them from the hands of a madman, regardless of what you might think. And that's *all* it's about!

The Redoubtable Mr Harris: Again, excellent points! [img]smile.gif[/img] You put most of what I was thinking down too well for me to re-hash it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Bravo sir, Bravo!

Vedran: The US never claimed to be a saint, either in it's people, or it's government. We, LIKE ALL OTHER NATIONS ON THIS PLANET, have made mistakes. And we've owned up to them, and have done a very great deal to try and make reparations. We have also invested TRILLIONS(Yes, that's TRILLIONS, with a "T") into technologies that will help minimize those type's of things from happening ever again. Anyway, all that we(as a country) are saying this time is, we are on the side of the angels, Saddam is a madman, and he needs to be removed from the equation. That's it. End of sentence.

Johnny: *APPLAUSE* Well done! You're absolutely right. Isreal is A) A US ally, and B) not a threat to either world peace or world stability(execpt in the sense that it's very existance incenses the Arab nations of the world, but that's a whole different kettle of fish).

IR: Nuff said!

Mr Harris: Yep.

frudi_x: [img]graemlins/1drool.gif[/img] SNORE!!!!!! Erm...huh...sorry, I stopped listening the minute you started railing about the "american propaganda machinery". I'm rather tired of, and bored with hearing that old saw. It was old before either of us were born.

Jay&SilentBob: Thanks for the note of reason bud! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] I make no bones about the fact that the song is slanted to the right. Heck, so am I! But I posted it simply because it inspired me, and I wanted to talk about it. And if someone were to post a song leaning the other way, I'd happily post to(and about) it! Thanks again! BTW...I *LOVE* CCR! I think I'll go give my Greatest Hits collection a listen. :D I know that Fortunate Son is in there somewhere.

The Hierophant: ROTFLM(agik's)AO!!

Seraph: Interesting post, and good points. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Johnny: HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img]

The Hierophant: Good call! And yep, seen it, loved it! Would like to own it on DVD one of these days!

CloudMod: Hmmm...well, I didn't actually intend to have this turn into a political debate. Like I said, I just wanted to post a song that inspired me. Sorry that it went awry. I had to leave for work(as you know), so I wasn't able to keep an eye on things. I apologize. From now on, I'll refrain from starting threads when I cant be around to keep up on them. Excellent points all, BTW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

BACK ON TOPIC!!

Anyone else have a good song from the opposite side of the boards that they'd like to post and discuss? I'd kind of like to keep it in the realm of music, and actually discussing the *SONG*, not the war/Iraq/Isreal/etc. If things keep up in that vein, I'll just ask that the thread be locked, as I have no desire to get into *yet another* war pro/con debate. We all know where each other stand, and noone is going to make anyone else change their position(short of a bulldozer). This is about exchanging ideas and viewpoints folks, not exchanging blows.

EDIT: For horrible spelling and a few grammar errors.

[ 03-06-2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

Hear hear for frudi_x on the first part, no need to state that twice.
My logic concerning Israel and Iraq is absolutely NOT flawed beyond belief. What I said was that America's reason for invading Iraq is supposed to be that "Iraq has weapons of mass destruction". Israel has weapons of mass destruction and is willing (believe me) to use them against the Palestinian people. Okay; I made a mistake by saying that they are using WoMD against Palestinians, I admit it. I should have said that just having weapons of mass destruction is reason enough for America to attack another country. This is just the same as Bush's "everyone who is not with us, is against us". Mind you, I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein should not be tackled. I'm just saying that if you do, don't be stupid and name the correct reason.

Israel is no more a saint than you and I, John D Harris. Keep that in mind.

And Johnny; I understand what you're saying but you can't tell me that Israel only kills guilty people. I've heard countless times how Palestinian civilians have been killed in actions committed by the Israelian army. I don't like it AT ALL what happens down there, and I'm on no one's side, but I do wish for each and everyone to be treated equally.

*SIGH* First off Link, you're skewing things in a *VERY* radical way. The US' reason for invading Iraw is *NOT* just 'He's got WoMD'. It's 'He's got WoMD, he has used them in the past and we believe he will again, since he has no qualms about using them on his own people, he's a thread to world peace and stability, he supplies, funds, and supports terrorists, and he's not complying with the rules established by the International community, when he LOST A WAR'. You have to take the WHOLE package, not pare it up into little sound bytes and spin it to fit your point.

Re: your point to Johnny. Erm...as the esteemed Mr Harris has already(very correctly) pointed out, sometimes, in military actions, CIVILIANS DIE!! It's a tragedy, but it's also the reality of war. However, the point that you seem to be conviently skipping over(since it obviously doesn't help, and in fact, totally derails, your arguement) is that the Palestinians started the whole damn thing BY BOMBING CIVILIANS!!!!! The suicide bombers dont attack military targets, they attack shopping malls, and bistros, and schools! They dont use soldiers and fight wars, they hide in the shadows like cowards and attack innocent people. BIG DIFFERENCE bud!

Nacht, if you want to have the Song discussion, repost it in GD and make a post that says it's just about the MUSIC and inspirational songs, then post your last request from here, that others join the discussion about MUSIC. Post a link to this thread or the WF in that thread so anyone with a 'war discussion' on his/her mind will know where to go.

I'll ask mods to keep an eye on it over there and be sure it stays on topic.

It's rude to completely hijack a person's thread which is what happened here, but if people want to talk war, they can come over to this neighborhood.

Yes ma'am. [img]smile.gif[/img]

See why I love this lady guys? She's so reasonable, and she even manages to keep *ME* in line. :D [img]graemlins/lovestory.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/kissy2.gif[/img]

<font color="#ffccff">errr which wedding would you be talking about? Your post is a bit cryptic. </font>

OK, I reposted the original thread back in GD.

Heard a great song today - Redux

If you want to post ON TOPIC in that thread, feel free!!!

Nacht

[ 03-06-2003, 10:42 AM: Message edited by: Nachtrafe ]

<font color="#ffccff">errr which wedding would you be talking about? Your post is a bit cryptic. </font></font>[/QUOTE]LOLOLOL!! That was my point too! It was a 'straight outta left field' grenade. I have *NO IDEA* what he's talking about. A few facts would greatly facilitate the debate. [img]smile.gif[/img]

BTW, Hi Magik!!!!! [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img]

I heard it last week, and I figured someone would finally post it here. I also figured it would go over like a turd in a punchbowl. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

ROTFLM(agik's)AO!!

Gee Ronn...thanks for that...erm...intersting image. [img]tongue.gif[/img] (damn, I cant for the life of me remember what movie that was from...a little help?)

LOLOL...Well, I guess I cant seem to help stirring the pot, even when I dont do it intentionally. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think the wedding he is referring too if I am not mistaken is one in Afghanistan shortly after the fall of the Taliban. American planes were doing recon and as they passed over/near a wedding reception being held some of the guests shot their rifles into the air in celebration and at least one of the planes bombed/strafed the area. It was awhile ago and it didnt get much coverage here but I THINK thats what he is talking about.

<font color="#ffccff">Ahem *lecture mode on* Leafless jungles of vietnam? Really? Last time I was in a P3 over flying those leafless jungles they were rather leafy. Babies of Hiroshima? what about Nagasaki and what exactly was different about them than oh, say the fire scorched babies of Hamburg, Bremen and Tokyo? Or the bombings at Pearl Harbor and in Poland? I posted some time ago the results of the long term studies done on the survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki...guess what....8 people in 10,000 showed an incread chance of leukemia....turns out that those two bombs were really no more or less deadly than the firebombings that took a week to conduct. Learn about what you are talking about before you go off ok? </font>

[ 03-06-2003, 10:51 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color="#ffccff">Their rifles = AK-47 and AK-74's, shooting in the air...real bright in a war zone no? I think this story may be a bit one sided me thinks. But as has been noted, accidents happen. At least the US helps the victims of its accidents recover unlike so very many other governments. </font>

<font color="#ffccff">Lest I seem anti-social [img]smile.gif[/img] Hiho Nacht...everyone! [img]smile.gif[/img] nice song [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/happywave.gif[/img] </font>

[ 03-06-2003, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Well like I said it was awhile ago and I may have a few details wrong. Someone more knowledgeable about the incident could probably help you more on the subject [img]tongue.gif[/img]

ROFL!! You, anti-social?!? Noooooo... HEHEHEHEHEHEHE

Huh...I hadn't heard about that. But, as Magik points out, firing off assault rifles in a war zone isn't the brightest idea. And, also as Magik pointed out, the US did/does spend a great deal of money/time/effort trying to make up for it's mistakes, as well as to ensure that they dont happen a second time.

<font color="#ffccff">Their rifles = AK-47 and AK-74's, shooting in the air...real bright in a war zone no? I think this story may be a bit one sided me thinks. But as has been noted, accidents happen. At least the US helps the victims of its accidents recover unlike so very many other governments. </font></font>[/QUOTE]Here are the full articles from the website of The Guardian;
If you need more sources, just do a Google search on 'Afghanistan wedding incident'.

US bomb blunder kills 30 at Afghan wedding

Pentagon admits one of its bombs was 'errant'

Luke Harding, South Asia correspondent and Matthew Engel in Washington
Tuesday July 2, 2002
The Guardian

American military officials were last night trying to explain one of their worst blunders during the nine-month war in Afghanistan after a US plane mistakenly targeted a house full of wedding guests, killing at least 30 of them.
The bombing happened at 1am yesterday in a village in the rugged and mountainous central region of Oruzgan, 105 miles north of the southern city of Kandahar.

Survivors of the attack said several guests had just fired their Kalashnikovs into the air, as is traditional in Pashtun wedding ceremonies. A US air patrol over-head wrongly concluded it was coming under fire and responded with devastating force.

An AC-130 helicopter gun-ship and B-52 bomber blasted the scene, leaving scores of people dead - among them women and children - and at least 40 injured.

Pentagon officials last night conceded that at least one bomb dropped on the village of Kakarak was "errant". But their initial response was confused and they were unable to explain why the pilots had failed to establish whom they were attacking in a region clearly abandoned by Taliban and al-Qaida fighters several months ago.

"There was no one to help last night," one resident, Abdul Saboor, said. "We managed to transfer some of the wounded to Kandahar in the morning. Some of the foreigners' choppers also came to help."

"There are no Taliban or al-Qaida or Arabs here. These people were all civilians, women and children."

An Afghan defence ministry official last night said more than 30 people had been killed in the attack, which appears to have gone on for two hours. The original death toll had been put as high as 120.

"It was a wedding ceremony and some of the participants were firing in the sky as part of the celebration. Americans have confessed that they made a mistake," he said.

Several survivors recovering in Kandahar's Mir Wais hospital yesterday said US troops had arrived at the scene shortly afterwards demanding to know "who fired on the helicopters".

Hospital officials said a number of wounded were being brought to Kandahar, a day's journey away by road. Most of the dead and injured were women and children, they said. A six-year-old girl named Paliko was brought to the hospital still wearing her party dress. She was injured, but villagers said all members of her family were killed.

"Their families are gone. The villagers brought these children and they have no parents. Everyone says that their parents are dead," Mohammed Nadir, a nurse, said.

The incident is deeply embarrassing for the American military, which has so far had little success in fulfilling its initial war aim of hunting down Osama bin Laden. Most senior Taliban figures together with remnants of al-Qaida decamped to Pakistan's tribal regions late last year, intelligence sources believe.

In Washington, the Pentagon yesterday admitted that at least one bomb dropped by western warplanes had missed its target, but it could not confirm claims that members of a wedding party had been killed.

Lt Cmdr Jeff Davis, a Pentagon spokesman, said anti-aircraft fire was directed at an air patrol of "coalition warplanes" and they had responded with close air support north of Kandahar. "At least one bomb was errant. We don't know where it fell," he said. "We are aware of reports of civilian casualties but don't know if casualties were caused [by] the bomb."

The Taliban's vanished leader Mullah Mohammed Omar grew up in the remote and overwhelmingly rural province of Oruzgan, which was once a Taliban stronghold. But with the demise of the fundamentalist regime last year virtually all locals with Taliban links escaped elsewhere. Spe cial forces and other coalition troops were in the area at the time of yesterday's incident, apparently searching for al-Qaida suspects.

American warplanes have made several other grievous errors during their war in Afghanistan - but are not believed to have killed so many civilians at a single stroke.

According to local Afghans, 11 members of a wedding party were killed in a similar incident in May in the village of Balkhiel, 30 miles north of the town of Khost.

The guests were bombed after celebrating by firing into the air. US officials later insisted their planes had come under enemy attack.

The village of Hazar Qadam wrongly bombed in January is also in Oruzgan. Some 16 innocent people were killed and 27 captured. The 27 were later released after US officials admitted their mistake and allowed them to return home.

In April four Canadian soldiers died when a US fighter bombed them by mistake during a training exercise.

And last December planes bombed a convoy from the eastern town of Khost, killing a group of tribal elders travelling to Kabul for Hamid Karzai's inauguration as interim leader.

No US apology over wedding bombing

Afghans claim 40 killed, 100 hurt, prompting Karzai to confront American officials in Kabul

Luke Harding, South Asia correspondent
Wednesday July 3, 2002
The Guardian

US military officials in Afghanistan have refused to apologise following the mistaken bombing of an Afghan wedding party on Monday which killed at least 30 people, insisting that aircraft had come under sustained and hostile fire.
The incident prompted the Afghan president, Hamid Karzai, to summon US military chiefs to his office and demand "all necessary measures" be taken "not to harm innocent Afghan civilians".

Afghans claim the wedding guests, who were celebrating near Deh Rawud village, in the mountainous province of Oruzgan, north of Kandahar, had been firing into the air - a Pashtun wedding tradition - when American planes struck.

But a US spokesman claimed yesterday that the shooting was "not consistent" with a wedding, saying that the planes had come under attack.

"Normally when you think of celebratory fire... it's random, it's sprayed, it's not directed at a specific target," said Colonel Roger King at the US airbase at Bagram. "In this instance, the people on board the aircraft felt that the weapons were tracking them and were [trying] to engage them."

The US planes - including a B-52 bomber and an AC-130 helicopter gunship - dropped seven 2,000lb bombs, he added.

His unapologetic tone, after one of the worst blunders of the US-led coalition's nine-month war in Afghanistan will infuriate locals, who said most of the dead were women and children. At least 40 others were injured.

Last night a US soldier was shot in the foot as an American military convoy returning from the hospital in Kandahar where wedding party victims were being treated came under fire. Col King said the wounded soldier was taken to the US base at Kandahar airport. Afghans travelling with the convoy returned fire but it was not known if they hit any targets.

In Washington, the defence secretary, Donald Rumsfeld, said of the bombing that any loss of innocent lives was a tragedy, but said he would not know what had happened until the Afghan and US investigators had reported. "I read in the paper there was a wedding," Mr Rumsfeld said. "I just don't know the facts."

US troops appear to have been carrying out a major search for Mullah Omar, the Taliban's fugitive leader.

The Afghan foreign minister, Abdullah Abdullah, said that 40 people, all civilians, had died, and that a further 100 were wounded.

"In one village, there was a wedding party... a whole family of 25 people. No single person was left alive. This is the extent of the damage," he said.

Raaz Mohammad, an official at the Oruzgan governor's office in the provincial capital, Tarin Kowt, also put the death toll as high as 40.

The Pentagon has admitted that one of its bombs was "errant" and missed the target, but has refused to confirm that a missile hit the wedding party.

American confusion is compounded by the fact that it is unclear which plane was involved. The Pentagon confirmed that a B-52 bomber did drop seven "precision guided weapons" on a cave complex, one of which missed the target. But the US claims this hit an empty hillside. That still leaves questions about the AC-130 gunship that returned what was claimed to be anti-aircraft fire.

Mr Rumsfeld said he knew of no casualties, other than four "young people" brought by their father to a US base, who were then helicoptered to Kandahar for treatment. He did hint that al-Qaida training manuals gave advice on how to discredit the US in situations like this but added: "I have no reason to believe that is the case this time."

Col King said the incident occurred during an operation to track down wanted Taliban or al-Qaida personnel, arms and documents.

He said: "The US government extends its deepest sympathies to those who may have lost loved ones or who may have suffered any injuries. Coalition military forces take extraordinary measures to protect against civilian casualties."

US forces killed 15 people in the same province in January in a firefight which they later admitted was "ill-advised".

[ 03-06-2003, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

I'm not sure what side of the story you're going to have to focus on to make the death of 30 civilians acceptable MagiK. Whether or not they were firing into the air I really don't think you can blame the wedding guests for what happened. As J&SB said - it was after the Taliban had fallen as I recall. The people should not have been fired on, its as simple as that.

Why is it that you come up with this "we've waited for 13 months"? I mean; I only stated that I thought America was anxious to get into war with Iraq, and that's simply stating the truth MagiK. If you will be telling me in your reply to this post they are not looking for a war, then you are blatantly lying.



I quote from a major newspaper in Holland (NRC Handelsblad): "The next dilemma is that Israël, India and Pakistan didn't sign the Non Proliferation Treaty and have posession of nuclear weapons (although Israël never acknowledged that). Although these countries cannot be 'punished' because of violation of a treaty, they did work against the treaty. Reason enough for the United States to announce sanctions against India and Pakistan. Those sanctions have been called of, or at least delayed, because both countries have co-operated with the 'war on terror'."

I ask you this, MagiK. You said it yourself; Israël has access (to put it in the least) to WoMD. But why doesn't the US announce sanctions against Israël, but they do against India and Pakistan? And don't start about being a country capable of using them; we're simply talking about agreeing on a treaty or not.

See? I did my bit of research and learned the facts. Back to you.

Because we (In what has to be one of the dumbest moves of the last 15 years) let Iraq keep its helocopters, which allowed them to crush the rebellion in the north. The Northern No-fly zone was a patch applied to a problem that shouldn't have existed in the first place.

Quote:

Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran?

Iran lost suprisingly few civilials.
Also, I think a country who's primary method of attack is the humanwave shouldn't compain when people get killed.

Quote:

Israel did not get any WoMD from the USA, they got them on their own, you know the old fashion way. They stole a ship loaded with fisionable matterial, the ship sailed from Norway I believe so if you want to blame somebody blame the Nowegians(SP?) for not having enough security on a ship of fisionable matterial.

Isreal got its nuclear weapons from France. The only thing it got from Norway was some heavy water, which Norway sold to France, and then France secretly sent to Israel. I have no idea where the whole "stole a ship" came from.</font>[/QUOTE]Quoted my post in it's entirety
[QUOTE]Originally posted by John D Harris:
First off the USA is NOT anxious to jump into war IT HAS BEEN ALLMOST 18 months since our country was attacked! By no stretch of any imagination can that be considered anxious! For 18 months the USA has danced around any invasion. You bet your sweet pippy it will be a war! And people will die make no mistake about it!
You logic about Israel is flawed allmost beyond belief! NAME ONE time Israel has ever use it's WoMD! Then go talk to the Kurd civilians that were killed in 1991 after the Gulf war by the Iraqis! I saw the bodies of babies killed by Iraqis chemical attacks plastered all over the TV. Why do you think there is a Northern NO-fly zone in Iraq? Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran? There is a far cry from having WoMD's and Using them on civilains!!!!!
Israel did not get any WoMD from the USA, they got them on their own, you know the old fashion way. They stole a ship loaded with fisionable matterial, the ship sailed from Norway I believe so if you want to blame somebody blame the Nowegians(SP?) for not having enough security on a ship of fisionable matterial.

It wasn't the Kurds killed by gas in March of 1991 it was the Shiites, the old grey matter hard drive got the kurds killed in 1988 and the Shiites mixxed up.

1) "Saddam's regime dropped chemical weapons on Halabja in Northern Iraq in 1988. More than 5000 civilians were killed. In March 1991, Saddam used chemical weapons against the Shias in Najaf and Kerbala to crush the uprising after the Gulf War."
Here's the Link http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/...cs/0000295.php

2) "1990 — During the Gulf War, Iraq uses chemical weapons against Kurds and Shiites."
Here's the Link http://www.jaxnews.com/news/2001/as-...-1l28q2706.htm (I'm waiting on conformation from the reporter, if he'll give me the source I'm be more then happy pass them on.)

3) "Repression of the Revolt

The Iraqi opposition revolted without the help of the US.

Hussein, attempted to demonstrate his power and prevent further revolts by using chemical and biological weapons (such as fluorine gas) on his own people.

However, this created more hatred toward Hussein.

Realizing this, in order to ensure his position of power, Hussein has been oppressing the Shiites and trying to keep them from being able to form a unified revolt."
Here's the Link http://oncampus.richmond.edu/~tlewel...entpp/iraq.htm (No way to get in contact with the writer that I can see so you can take it or leave it)

I never said Iranian civilains I said: Or how about talking to the Iranians that where killed during the little war between Iraq and Iran? Point being that the Iraqis have a HISTORY of using WoMD or chemical weapons if you like.

It wasn't a stolen ship it was just the Cargo ;) The ship was of Norwegian registry, it's been years since I've seen the History Channel show on "Operation Plumbat"

1) "After the 1967 war, France stopped supplies of uranium to Israel. These supplies were from former French colonies of Gabon, Niger, and the Central Africa Republic.34 Israel had small amounts of uranium from Negev phosphate mines and had bought some from Argentina and South Africa, but not in the large quantities supplied by the French. Through a complicated undercover operation, the Israelis obtained uranium oxide, known as yellow cake, held in a stockpile in Antwerp. Using a West German front company and a high seas transfer from one ship to another in the Mediterranean, they obtained 200 tons of yellow cake. The smugglers labeled the 560 sealed oil drums “Plumbat,” which means lead, hence “Operation Plumbat.”35 The West German government may have been involved directly but remained undercover to avoid antagonizing the Soviets or Arabs.36 Israeli intelligence information on the Nazi past of some West German officials may have provided the motivation.37"
foot notes from web site:35. Weissman and Krosney, 124-128 and Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 198-199.

36. Spector, The Undeclared Bomb, 395(n. 57).98-199

37. Raviv, Dan and Melman, Yossi, 1990, 58.
Here's the link http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/cpc-pubs/farr.htm

We didn't allow the Iraqis to keep their Helicopters we allowed them to fly their helicopters, we hadn't conquered Iraq or gained control of their helicopters. ;)
1) 'Now that we had covered the the coalition's main points, we had a brief discussion of how vehicles in the cease-fire zone would would fly orange flags to signal peacful intent. Then I asked, "Are there any other matters the general would like to discuss?"
"We have one point," he said. "You know the situation of our roads and bridges and communications." I nodded, thinking of the overwhelming damage our bombing had done. "We would like to fly helicopters to carry officials of our goverment in areas where roads and briges are out. This has nothing to do with the front line. This is inside Iraq."
It appeared to me to be a legitimate request. And given that the Iraqis had agreed to all our requests, I didn't feel it was unreasonable to grant one of theirs: "As long as it is not over any part we are in, that is absolutely no problem. So we will let helicopters fly. That is a very important point, and I want to make sure it's recorded, that military helicopters can fly over Iraq. Not fighters, not bombers."1

1. It doesn't take a hero; General Norman Schwarzkof; pg 488-489, hardback, Bantam Book/October 1992

[ 03-07-2003, 01:09 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]