<font color="#ffccff"> The soldier stood and faced his God
Which must always come to pass
He hoped his shoes were shining
Just as brightly as his brass.

"Step forward now, you soldier,
How shall I deal with you?
Have you always turned the other cheek?
To My Church have you been true?

The soldier squarred his shoulders
And said "No Lord, I guess I ain't
Because those of us who carry guns
Can't always be a saint.

I've had to work most Sundays
And at times my talk was tough.
And sometimes I've been violent,
Because the world is awfully rough.

But I never took a penny
That wasn't mine to keep....
Though I worked a lot of overtime
When the bills just got too steep.

And I never passed a cry for help,
Though at times I shook with fear,
And sometimes, God forgive me,
I've wept unmanly tears.

I know I don't deserve a place
Among the people here.
They never wanted me around
Except to calm their fears.

If you've a place for me here, Lord,
It needn't be so grand,
I've never had that much in life,
So if you don't I'll understand.

There was silence all around the throne
Where the saints had often trod,
As the soldier waited quietly,
For the judgement of his God.

"Step forward now you soldier
You've borne your burdens well,
Walk peacefully on Heaven's streets,
You've done your time in Hell."

To all that serve.</font>

<font color="#ffccff">Well I thought it was nice.</font>

it is a good poem MagiK. Who wrote it?

It is a very nice thought. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Thats awsome, thanks for posting MagiK [img]smile.gif[/img]

Not to let you think it went un-noticed, MagiK. I sent it to the military folks and vets I know (incl. my dad).

Smile, Smile, Smile

Head to limp head, the sunk-eyed wounded scanned
Yesterday's Mail; the casualties (typed small)
And (large) Vast Booty from our Latest Haul.
Also, they read of Cheap Homes, not yet planned;
For, said the paper, "When this war is done
The men's first instinct will be making homes.
Meanwhile their foremost need is aerodromes,
It being certain war has just begun.
Peace would do wrong to our undying dead, -- -
The sons we offered might regret they died
If we got nothing lasting in their stead.
We must be solidly indemnified.
Though all be worthy Victory which all bought,
We rulers sitting in this ancient spot
Would wrong our very selves if we forgot
The greatest glory will be theirs who fought,
Who kept this nation in integrity."
Nation? -- - The half-limbed readers did not chafe
But smiled at one another curiously
Like secret men who know their secret safe.
This is the thing they know and never speak,
That England one by one had fled to France
(Not many elsewhere now save under France).
Pictures of these broad smiles appear each week,
And people in whose voice real feeling rings
Say: How they smile! They're happy now, poor things.

Wilfred Owen, 23rd September 1918.

So did I. I just didn't feel the need to comment.
This forum needs a 'views' counter so that you can see that your posts have actually been read...

...Ziroc? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Or perhaps more apt, given the possible nature of the coming battle:

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned out backs,
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots,
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame, all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of gas-shells dropping softly behind.

Gas! GAS! Quick, boys!--An ecstasy of fumbling
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time,
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams before my helpless sight
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams, you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin,
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs
Bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

Wilfred Owen, The Somme, 1916

Let's hope that history doesn't repeat itself as it so often does...

So did I. I just didn't feel the need to comment.
This forum needs a 'views' counter so that you can see that your posts have actually been read...

...Ziroc? [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#ffccff"> Nice idea H. I have seen them at other sites. As for who wrote it, I have no idea or I would have posted it. </font></font>[/QUOTE]

<font color="#ffccff">Odd that skunk would post works, that show exactly what WoMD can do and what happens when nations sit idly by, talking and appeasing instead of taking action in time to avert the whole disaster in the first place.</font>

Not so very odd, if you know who Wilfred Owen actually was. Even though he considered himself a pacifist, he enlisted to fight for England in WWI. After suffering shell shock and being brought into hospital, he met Siegfried Sassoon, another WWI poet, and Robert Graves. They encouraged his writing. In August 1918 Owen was declared fit to return to the Western Front. He was killed by machine-gun fire only a week before the Armistice. "Dulce et decorum est" is obviously ironic, even cynical.
What you say about the poem is not what a literary critic would read into it, nor did Owen himself intend them in that way (even though I'm not saying it's explicitly pacifist, mind).

so, what does 'dulce et decorum est' mean in English anyway? Might help in interpreting the message of the poem if I actually knew what it's English title was (and before you start, yes I realize that intended meaning can be lost in translation, but I'm a lazy, mono-linguistical clod... [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

The full sentence is Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori which roughly translates as it is sweet and fitting to die for one's country

(forgot to add - I think it's originally a line from Horace)

[ 01-24-2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

Cheers. That cleared things up nicely [img]smile.gif[/img]

Steady. I am NOT against military action provided that:
1. We have *HARD* evidence that Iraq is developing or stockpiling WMD's.
2. We are CAREFULL about the methodolgy employed (NO high altitude bombing, cluster bombs, air fuel bombs etc)
3. The action is UN authorised
4. That the new government does not consist of the 'Opposition groups' (many of whom are as guilty of just as nasty acts as Hussein)
5. We don't abandon the Iraqi civilians to 'fate' as we have done in Afghanistan.

Just because I'm against military action at this moment in time does not mean that I can not envisage a time when it would be neccesary. Nor does it mean that I support the continuing rule of Saddam Hussein.

My main concern is not for Bush/Blair's poll ratings or Iraq's oil - it's for the Iraqi civilians whose only 'crime' was to be born in the wrong country...

Amazing how similar your list is to mine. I am FOR military actio provided that:
1. We have *good* evidence that Iraq is developing or stockpiling weapons not permitted to it by the UN resolutions.
2. ..... Um.... We use whatever means necessary to reduce American casualties, including anything the military can dream up.
3. The action is UN authorized.
4. We leave the new government alone and don't spend tax dollars for years to come managing some puppet country. If a new serpent arises, we can cut him down in turn as well. Just because Kudzu grows rapidly doesn't mean you sit next to the vine babysitting it all day.
5. We let the Iraqi citizens determine their own fate, and we do not force democracy down their throats.

Um... Okay, so it's not quite so similar. :D

<font color="#ffccff">Your list is very similar to mine TL [img]smile.gif[/img] err actually I think it is mine.</font>

Yeah, MagiK, but it's too bad Numbers 4 and 5 are very unlikely to happen in any circumstance. :(

<font color="#ffccff">France and Russia won't allow it in any case, even if the US does. They have too much at stake in the matter, last I heard France alone has over 1.6 Billion invested in Iraq, and Russia is thought to have more. </font>

Makes no difference what government is in power in Iraq - any debts owed to France and Russia will still have to be paid back by a new government - that's international law.

Russia, for example, still owes the 'Paris Club' some $37 billion dollars of debt for Soviet Era debts (some of it dating back to loans issued in the 1920's).

So it makes no financial difference to France and Russia whether Saddam or another regime is in power - they'll still get paid.

But your opposition to the idea makes the point in a different way....

Being legally owed money and collecting in a timely matter(if at all), are completely different things. ;)

[ 01-26-2003, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

I wholehearted agree - except on nr.5 as I don't think the Afghanies have been abandoned.

Everywhere outside of Kabul...

Makes no difference what government is in power in Iraq - any debts owed to France and Russia will still have to be paid back by a new government - that's international law.

<font color="#ffccff">You show quite an ignorance of the history of that part of the world. Once upon a time a bunch of Americans paid the Arabs of several countries quite a lot of money to build refineries and drilling equipment for oil, only to have had all the equipment, and all the facilities "Nationalized".

What that means is the governments of those countries did was said piss off this is all our stuff now, thanks for building it. You can pay us for it all over again by purchasing the oil....neat little scam...international law....(snicker) you really think that means diddly to Iraq or really any government that has no problem gassing millions of iranians or kurds? </font>

Russia, for example, still owes the 'Paris Club' some $37 billion dollars of debt for Soviet Era debts (some of it dating back to loans issued in the 1920's).

<font color="#ffccff">How many payments have been made? Come to think of it, most of europe should owe the US quite a lot of money....</font>

So it makes no financial difference to France and Russia whether Saddam or another regime is in power - they'll still get paid.

<font color="#ffccff">Will not. </font></font>[/QUOTE]

Russia has been forgiven some debt - but is still making scheduled payments.
Britain also had middle-eastern oil facilities nationalised (notably Iran/Iraq) - but was compensated for its losses.

I had no idea that US companies did not get an equally fair settlement. Thanks for letting me know (you learn something new every day).

But I am curious to know what you think about Iraq's war reparations debts to Kuwait? There is *still* a LOT of money owed to Kuwait - do you think that this debt be 'forgiven' too? It's a rather sensitive issue...