well what will set this war in motion?
A.)will it be a terriorest attack in New York City on News Years Eve with one of the 100 missing briefcase Nuclear bombs that have been unaccounted for since the Berlin Wall came down?
B.)Another sharp shooter snipper or maybe 20 or 30 of them at the same time in different cities.
C.)will we start bombing first?
D.)Will we use A Nuclear strike if they do?
E.)is this the End of Irac & Iran and many other middle easter countries just because they believe their God is different than ours, and they are stupid enough to attack The United States.Don't they realise that the U.S. military has the power and the weapons to wipe the human race completely off the planet 20 times over and then do it all over again 20 more times.it reminds me of a mouse teasing a well fed Tiger and sooner or later the Tiger is going to kill the mouse and he still won't eat it because he only likes Beef.
This is not a joke, I'm not writting this to be funny. These are the questions that I see in my mind every time I see or hear anything about the Midddle East. No one on this forum can answer these questions yet and let us hope we never have to EVER!

The war has already started supposedly. British and American bombers have been striking positions in Iraq (some in civilian-heavy areas, causing innocent deaths) for the past four or five years now, with an escalation of 300% in aerial strikes in the past 12 months. 'Softening them up' I suppose. Regardless of the justifications or human costs, the war has already been initiated. Personally I think it's madness, and with a little luck there really is a hell for all of our world's warmongers to burn in in the afterlife. But if not, the profiteers of such butchery shall be laughing all the way to the bank.

There is nothing more that has to happen, it was decided quite some time ago that Iraq would be invaded, what took so long is public opinion. If nobody would give a damn, Iraq would have been toast already. I think in two months it will all be over.... but then what ?

I'm afraid your talking about the Human race and I don't think wars will ever be over. but some day we will have used up all of the weapons on this planet and somebody will pick up a wooden club and start it all over again, just look at any history book about the past three thousand years they all say the same thing "my God is better than yours and my army will wipe you out to prove it, unless you give up now and hand over all your weapons" sound familar? If you look through history books back in babalonia times you can find almost the same statement more than 3000 years ago and then look into the future and some day somebody else will say the same thing. OH wait President Bush said it this year 3000 years later. well the circle is complete the End is near one way or another and thats really sick.
Who is really the mad man and why is he so mad and what is he so mad about? I know the reasons that the media give as to why and what but what is the real reason? These people were on our side and now they are sending airplaines crashing into our city killing friends and family for what,and in the name of what god? Has The world has gone totaly mad or just our part of it?
let us all hope that when it's all over this time and the dust has settled, that we are still alive and not the victom of some cowards terriorest attack!

You can view history in any way that you choose. Yet just because some people in history have decided to fight each other it does not mean that you have to take the same path. All there is is your own personal perception of world, influenced by forces outside your control (which includes the world-perceptions of other people too). You make your own choices. I'm not going to kill my own kind. I've made that choice already. I don't care what rhetoric is used by others in order to try and make me change my mind. We're all living on unconfirmed time. Don't give in to the mob-mentality of war, or else you will be perpetuating the war cycle that you insinuate is the curse of mankind.
Never think of human beings as formations of 'sides'. To do so is to accept the folly of violent conflict and the segregation of man. It is falsehood, and can lead you to nowhere but ruin.

Well, I think that we should invade Iraq, reorganise their polotics, then leave. There will of course, be another war down the road, but we can only deal with one at a time. We are human beings with the natural intsinct to be teritorial, violent, and needy of a "higher power" to excuse these intsincts. Dont get me wrong, I have no problem with religion, as long as it is seperate from the government, unlike other countries. We need to bring them up to democracies speed. They will see, when its all said and done, that we ARE right, and will thank us to be rid of the tyranny in their countries, and be truly free to have their faith. I live in a place with one of the biggest nuclear sites in the world to the north, and a chemical weapons depot/incinerator to the south. The last thing I want is a war on our soil. But whether we know it or not, it already is. We need to rid the world of the bad apples wanting to rid us.

*shrugs. Iraq is like a lion without teeth. North Korea is far more dangerous at this time...

Yeah, well...teeth can grow in time. You don't want to look the other way in this case and find out in 10 years Saddam build nukes, cause then we'd have a REAL problem.

<font color="#ffccff">Don't suppose you would care to put a link to some explanations of this? From the information that I have, US and British planes have been striking at Anti-Aircraft weapons that were in the process of locking them up. This is the process where they target the planes with radar in preperation to fire the AA missile or their AAA guns.

While some of these Missiles are located in populated areas that is not the fault of the US or the British. You do not see the British and the Americans locating their weapons systems in population centers just to deter attacks against them. I would also hardly call attacks against aggressive anti-aircraft defenses as a "war". </font>

<font color="#ffccff">I think your premise here is a bit off. They do not believe their god is different than ours, and that has nothing to do with why we will be going to war against them.

1st. Iran and Iraq have different religious sects, one is shiite and the other is Suuni (forgive the spelling errors there) these two countries have been warring with each other for decades and have killed millions of each others citizens.

2nd. Iran is only backing Iraq right now to divert attention fromt he fact that the 90% of the current population in Iran is not in favor of the current regime that is in power and wants a change.

3rd. The war is about Weapons of Mass Destruction and their use or possible use by state sponsored (meaning sponsored by nations) terrorist groups.

Hope this clears some things up for you dude. </font>

[quote]Originally posted by The Hierophant:

Quote:

You can view history in any way that you choose. Yet just because some people in history have decided to fight each other it does not mean that you have to take the same path. All there is is your own personal perception of world, influenced by forces outside your control (which includes the world-perceptions of other people too). You make your own choices. I'm not going to kill my own kind. I've made that choice already. I don't care what rhetoric is used by others in order to try and make me change my mind. We're all living on unconfirmed time. Don't give in to the mob-mentality of war, or else you will be perpetuating the war cycle that you insinuate is the curse of mankind. Never think of human beings as formations of 'sides'. To do so is to accept the folly of violent conflict and the segregation of man. It is falsehood, and can lead you to nowhere but ruin.

<font color="#ffccff">Do you promote the idea that when threatened, a person or state or nation should not defend them selves? that you should never take preemptive steps to protect yourself?

If this is your philosophy, then I must ask, do you lock the doors to your home? do you lock the doors to your car? would you not protect your own child or wife when they are threatened? To just sit there and say, violence never solves anything is to ignore everyday physical proof to the contrary. I certainly would hate to be a dependant of such a person who would allow any old thug to abuse me, all in an effort to remain true to this fallacious pacifisitc credo. </font>

And to add a little example: take a look at what happened in a US hospital in Yemen this week.

No, I don't promote that idea [img]smile.gif[/img] And I certainly don't advocate 'just sitting there'. I guess where the confusion of motive comes into things here is where do you place your sense of identity. I don't feel any kinship with a particular national name, just the people I 'know' personally (online acquaintences included). Of course this makes my allegiances simplistic and perhaps even naieve. But simple is the way I like it. You're a good man Magik, and you're only trying to point out the illogicies of what I've been saying (and have been meeting some success I might add, well done [img]smile.gif[/img] ), but I guess we're just on different social wavelengths is all. Maybe with a little time and experience I'll learn my lessons, if I havn't fallen prey to all the conflict the world has to offer by then [img]smile.gif[/img]

[quote]Originally posted by MagiK:

Quote:

<font color="#ffccff">Don't suppose you would care to put a link to some explanations of this? From the information that I have, US and British planes have been striking at Anti-Aircraft weapons that were in the process of locking them up. This is the process where they target the planes with radar in preperation to fire the AA missile or their AAA guns. While some of these Missiles are located in populated areas that is not the fault of the US or the British. You do not see the British and the Americans locating their weapons systems in population centers just to deter attacks against them. I would also hardly call attacks against aggressive anti-aircraft defenses as a "war". </font>

Believe me, I was trying to find a link to it [img]smile.gif[/img] I read the 'info' in my city's major newspaper as reported by a British correspondant and have since tried to find the appropriate link at the newspaper's website, but met with no luck. And indeed it takes a skewed perception of things, counting strikes in civilian-laden areas as civilian attacks (although civilian deaths have occured on several occasions according to the article). My point simply was that nothing will 'set this war in motion' as the gears have been turning for some time now. All moral judmentality aside, it's already begun, UN inspectors or no.

[ 01-01-2003, 06:29 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

<font color="#ffccff">Don't suppose you would care to put a link to some explanations of this? From the information that I have, US and British planes have been striking at Anti-Aircraft weapons that were in the process of locking them up. This is the process where they target the planes with radar in preperation to fire the AA missile or their AAA guns.

While some of these Missiles are located in populated areas that is not the fault of the US or the British. You do not see the British and the Americans locating their weapons systems in population centers just to deter attacks against them. I would also hardly call attacks against aggressive anti-aircraft defenses as a "war". </font></font>[/QUOTE]I would also point out that they have been warned repeatedly, even to the point of dropping pamphlets, that if they attempt to "lock on" to coalition aircraft, the sites doing so will be destroyed.

Who Knows, Who Cares, only those that shall despair.
The US holds first strike rights! Well, kinda, we did kinda wussy up and allow to only retaliate on chemical counter strike. And well, umm, we shall never use bio.

The real question is, WHAT IS THE REAL OBJECTIVE????

We do not have enough munitions to destroy all of mankind, not even once. Wipe the snot from your nose, and dry behind your ears. Can you recall 1991, I can, I was there. Where were you? We bombed for over 30 days. We ran flat out of some types. And that was for 1 army, in one country, on a small slice of one contietent. How could we ever wipe out all of the evil of the world???

We need help my friend, friends that will aid in battle, and stand fast for what is right FOR THE WORLD.

What happens if all of you that want the US to take over Iraq, and it happens? What is next? Who will provide the peace keeping? Are you going to leave the comfort of your computer room and pull duty?

Na, we shalt not invade alone, only when their are others to provide help with the aftermath details. Will you stand and be counted?

No Longer is there a Peace to Put as Peace Out.
Semper Fi!
Felix

Uh...what? Sorry man, I don't quite follow.

[quote]Originally posted by The Hierophant:

Quote:

No, I don't promote that idea [img]smile.gif[/img] And I certainly don't advocate 'just sitting there'. I guess where the confusion of motive comes into things here is where do you place your sense of identity. I don't feel any kinship with a particular national name, just the people I 'know' personally (online acquaintences included). Of course this makes my allegiances simplistic and perhaps even naieve. But simple is the way I like it. You're a good man Magik, and you're only trying to point out the illogicies of what I've been saying (and have been meeting some success I might add, well done [img]smile.gif[/img] ), but I guess we're just on different social wavelengths is all. Maybe with a little time and experience I'll learn my lessons, if I havn't fallen prey to all the conflict the world has to offer by then [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color="#ffccff">Well I don't know about the "good" part but I try. Yes we do seem to have completely different angles on nationality. I was raised, and adopted as an adult a strong affinity for the ideals of the United States of America. Note that I said Ideals and while my nation may frequently fall short of the Ideal, I do believe we come closer to them than anyone else int he world (of course since they are american ideals I don't really expect anyone else to really hold them [img]smile.gif[/img] ) Now that you express your focus in the manner of being loyal to friends and family I can see where you are coming from.
I also have loyalty for my friends and family, My kids, my family, myself then my country and friends. Anyway Happy New year!!!! :D </font>

[quote]Originally posted by The Hierophant:

Quote:

Uh...what? Sorry man, I don't quite follow.

<font color="#ffccff">My thoughts exactly [img]smile.gif[/img] Not Sure what you are getting at Felix. Especially your last line. Peace to put as peace out? </font>

I've read about the American founding fathers, the notions of independance, courage in defiance and everyone making their own way. Those are some good principles, make sure you hold onto them (and I'm sure you will). I guess George and Tom and the lads just didn't count on America becoming such a powerful collective in the centuries that followed. How to balance the ideals of freedom with the trappings of power? Tricky business for any person...
And it's good to know you hold true to your loved ones. Some folks really do care more about their 'nation' than their families. I don't know, just doesn't feel... wholesome. But maybe I'm whacked.

And hey, HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU TOO!!! Let the good times roll!

Hmm Just testing these waters. I take it all of you are civilians, sitting around a warm room. Josting about who will serve the first blow.

How many of you have spent the last 6 months deployed? That means gone completly away from the world as you know it? Doing a operation, for the upcoming operation, while deployed for the same 6 months? For those of you who don't get it. We are tired. We are doing way more with way less. Remember those clinton days, ah we don't need all these folks, we can manage. Well we can't. That's why if you follow the news there are currently more folks being called, than what was needed for the entire GW live fire.

Our nation is at war, we are no longer at peace.

Felix

Felix, don't assume anything general about the members of IW. ;) You'd be very surprised, I think. Many of them have served their countries in the armed services, many have supported them. But either way, everyone's opinion is valued.

The mix of backgrounds and experiences is what makes this place such a good one for those discussions. [img]smile.gif[/img]

That's a little more clear [img]smile.gif[/img] Your first post seemed a little... eratic. No offence intended.
Well, I'm happy to say that I'm a 'civilian' in that I'm not a member of any standing army. Fighting is fine, and I guess getting organized and establishing a standing army makes sense if you want to fight well. But in the current climate there is alot of talk of 'rightness' and 'freedom' but all that really seems to be happening is invasion after invasion after bombing campaign. If George W. Bush administration made an attempt to understand the worlds that they are planning on ripping down, if they maybe learned some arabic and addressed the Iraqi people in their own tongue (hey the leaders of the Taliban could speak fluent English, the Bush admin could at least give Arabic a shot) then there might be a greater chance at winning their favour. As it stands President Bush seems to show nothing but distaste for the arabic way of life. He tries to force his own way of life on a foreign people who just don't seem to want it. He shows great interest in deposing Saddam Hussein, but little in understanding the lives of the common people whose lives he is threatening with his actions. He'll depsose Saddam (nothing will stop that now), make a few bureacratic arrangements in the region, then move on. If you are going to invade someone's land, if you claim it is for their own good, then make sure you stay afterwards for the long haul. Make an effort to understand their ways and show them that you generally care. That you arn't just an adventurer out to shoot your guns and win your wars.
This isn't a moral judgment, just an observation.

Hmm Just testing these waters. I take it all of you are civilians, sitting around a warm room. Josting about who will serve the first blow.

How many of you have spent the last 6 months deployed? That means gone completly away from the world as you know it? Doing a operation, for the upcoming operation, while deployed for the same 6 months? For those of you who don't get it. We are tired. We are doing way more with way less. Remember those clinton days, ah we don't need all these folks, we can manage. Well we can't. That's why if you follow the news there are currently more folks being called, than what was needed for the entire GW live fire.

Our nation is at war, we are no longer at peace.

Felix</font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#ffccff">Hola Felix [img]smile.gif[/img] I spent 10 years active duty in the USN. I also saw a wee bit of fire when the Puerto Rican Macha Terro's decided to go on rampages from 1979 thru 1984 or so. (the ones Clinton wanted to give Pardons too) I jumped ship just as Clinton came to office. I support all of you out in the field, I also served a few years as a consultant and contractor for the Marine Corps. I just didn't understand what you were trying to get at in your first post. Anyway, appy New Year to you as well! </font>

<font color="#ffccff">Umm T.H...as for the Taliban speaking fluent English...I never heard any of them speaking English...I heard translators speaking... It is in the talibans own best interest to have some people who speak english for business and financial reasons. As for learning arabic...it is a good idea for someone in an administration to do, but to ask that national leaders take the time to learn other languages as part of their duties...I think you might be vastly over estimating just how much free time these people really have.

On topic...I think tightening immigration rules and processes and reducing the numbers of young arabic males from getting into western countries untill that particular group becomes somewhat less dangerous should be the first step.</font>

Hmm Just testing these waters. I take it all of you are civilians, sitting around a warm room. Josting about who will serve the first blow.

How many of you have spent the last 6 months deployed? That means gone completly away from the world as you know it? Doing a operation, for the upcoming operation, while deployed for the same 6 months? For those of you who don't get it. We are tired. We are doing way more with way less. Remember those clinton days, ah we don't need all these folks, we can manage. Well we can't. That's why if you follow the news there are currently more folks being called, than what was needed for the entire GW live fire.

Our nation is at war, we are no longer at peace.

Felix[/QUOTE]

Felix,
I could kiss you, 'cept I'm married and you're probibly not my type :D
A lot of us are civilains that have ties to the military, I'm a USAF brat, grew up during the Cold war. We didn't even have duck and cover drills at school, because the schools were all located on military bases and we knew we were target #1. Duck and cover wouldn't have done any good.
I learned a long time ago that there are things the military knows and does that the civilain pop doesn't need to know or really want to know. If you want to get anything done or find out what is going on ask a Sgt.
Lastly Thanks for your service to our country. Sorry about the Clinton years I didn't vote for him but what's done is done. The men and women of the US armed Forces always have My support.

You can view history in any way that you choose. Yet just because some people in history have decided to fight each other it does not mean that you have to take the same path. All there is is your own personal perception of world, influenced by forces outside your control (which includes the world-perceptions of other people too). You make your own choices. I'm not going to kill my own kind. I've made that choice already. I don't care what rhetoric is used by others in order to try and make me change my mind. We're all living on unconfirmed time. Don't give in to the mob-mentality of war, or else you will be perpetuating the war cycle that you insinuate is the curse of mankind.
Never think of human beings as formations of 'sides'. To do so is to accept the folly of violent conflict and the segregation of man. It is falsehood, and can lead you to nowhere but ruin.</font>[/QUOTE]That's so true. If mankind would understand this we would live in peace...but instead hate is blooming and weapons of mass destruction is produced with one purpose which is death. Wicked leaders full of hate with no respect of their own kind will kill for their own interests and I dont think we should wait too long to see a war where biologial and even nuclear wepons are being used.
Take Iraq for instance, if America invades Iraq, Saddam will most likely try to come up with some sort of retaliation. He will unlikely try to strike America but he could, and I belive he is capable of launching an destructive attack on Europe. Europe is the allies of America and it would be far more easier to send missiles to an aera on the same continent than it would be to send missiles over the atlantic. This would lead to more destructive being used by America and its allies to retaliate back. And see how Al quaida, and even North Korea is mustering mass weapons of destruction...
This is only going one way and thats the way to destruction of mankind.

Ok Folks, I see the infusion for the confusion. My first post on this thread did not carry the quote I had so carefully cut and pasted. Hey Moderator, can we get a repeat on that.

Ok, so I'm over 20, and cannot retire due to grade, position and skills. I don't want, too much more than, to put roots into the side of a slope over lokking the Sanke in Idao. Allow my children to roam free, and have a set of friends that won't change next rotation. It was fun. I did the whole enchilada(sp), but I'm ready to stop, and live a normal life. Is that too much to ask for a guy who just turned 40? Has sent more cards to his family for their special days than received them? I think not. So if you want a war, then darn it, get off your duff and do it. Get it done and over with. Put an end to stop loss! Break out the draft, and allow those of us who have seen 1 or more hostile events, either stand down and train and prepare you. OR, Do this to the tune of AC/DC "See Me Ride Out On The Sunset, On Your Color TV Screen"!

Stress? Always. Sweat, every day! Scared! You had better be! Fear, never, for it will consume you. For those that must ask! (Scared, why did i just burn the roast for dinner)!

Felix

Felix, you can edit your own posts.