I have started a new thread here, rather than replying in the Memnoch's 'no more sarcasm' thread, because I want to ensure my point is not missed. If I am suspended or banned as a result, so be it.


<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Naked Wild Man:
Sarcasm is not an acceptable form of debate? Jonathan Swift must be rolling in his grave.

Emotion is not part of issues like war? LOL.

Okay, I had thought to participate in this forum, but forget it. I was participating in the thread in question, and Silver Cheetah's sarcastic comment was nothing that should bother anyone except the extremely oversensitive.

What a joke. Just close down the whole forum and be done with it.

Bye.<hr></blockquote>

Delete passion. Delete feeling. Delete anger. Delete personality. Delete honesty. Delete integrity.

In fact, get rid of everything in us that is needed if we are to have any hope of changing the world for the better.

'I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' - as long as you do it in a way that will offend no-one, and preferably somewhere else... Is that it?

As to Memnoch's comment about slapping down Yorick on the forum - why not, Memnoch? Anti-war people get slapped down, why not pro-war? YES, it does look like a double standard from where I'm sitting. And if you want to ban or suspend me for that comment, go right on ahead.

As Naked Wild Man says, what's the point if every comment must be watered down to make the whole completely inoffensive? Personally, I find the bombing of Aghani civilians pretty damn offensive. I found the bombing of the World Trade Centre offensive. I find the tactics of transnational corporations offensive.

And I intend to continue saying so, in a voice that is authentically *MY OWN* rather than one that is imposed upon me. If I cannot post here on those terms, then so be it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:

Delete passion. Delete feeling. Delete anger. Delete personality. Delete honesty. Delete integrity. <hr></blockquote>

I don't remember saying any of these in my post? I said:

<font size="1">"Guys, in future please refrain from using sarcasm or other forms of emotional language when discussing/debating an issue. Sarcasm can sometimes make one person look good at another's expense (even if this was not the intention). This is where seeds of resentment starts, and the other person feels they've lost face and need to "get one back". "</font>

Don't come to the wrong conclusion. You mean to tell me you cannot post with passion, feeling, anger (as long as it is not directed at others), personality, honesty, integrity - without being sarcastic? If so, why are people like Ronn_Bman and Ryanamur able to do it, from opposing sides of the fence, and still not offend anyone by virtue of the language they use to make a point. They MAKE points, not SCORE points.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
'I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it' - as long as you do it in a way that will offend no-one, and preferably somewhere else... Is that it? <hr></blockquote>

You have misquoted me. My quote (taken from Voltaire) was:

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it. This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others.

The last sentence is the most important one there.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
As to Memnoch's comment about slapping down Yorick on the forum - why not, Memnoch? Anti-war people get slapped down, why not pro-war? YES, it does look like a double standard from where I'm sitting. And if you want to ban or suspend me for that comment, go right on ahead.

As Naked Wild Man says, what's the point if every comment must be watered down to make the whole completely inoffensive? Personally, I find the bombing of Aghani civilians pretty damn offensive. I found the bombing of the World Trade Centre offensive. I find the tactics of transnational corporations offensive.

And I intend to continue saying so, in a voice that is authentically *MY OWN* rather than one that is imposed upon me. If I cannot post here on those terms, then so be it.<hr></blockquote>

You're entitled to all those opinions. Nobody is taking away your right to hold them. But you will say them with respect to others. This entire situation was precipitated by the way that you responded to a point that someone else made in the Aid thread. Surely that person was entitled to his comments too?

We ask for very little from you guys. Respect other posters. They have the same right to express an opinion as you. It is our responsibility to ensure that they are in a position to express their opinion, without taking sides or feeling like they are going to have their heads bitten off. Compared to other forums on the web you will find us very reasonable and understanding. But all this subtle jabbing and verbal pointscoring at others' expense is not acceptable here.

You are entitled to your opinions, but the rules are clear. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
I have started a new thread here, rather than replying in the Memnoch's 'no more sarcasm' thread, because I want to ensure my point is not missed. If I am suspended or banned as a result, so be it.
<hr></blockquote>

I am also wondering why you felt the need to post this separately to the "No more Sarcasm" thread in question? It would have been highly unlikely that your comments would have been missed there. Could it be because there was general agreement to my comments on that thread?

Please accept my apologies if this is not the case.

I know this will look as though I am just supporting Cheetah because she is my daughter, but frankly, I wouldn't care who had made the post.

THE POINTS MADE ARE VALID!!!!! So are Wild Man's comments.

It is all a normal part of free and open debate between consenting adults. Non-consenting adults should not join in, just as they don't in RL. The oversensitive in RL do NOT put their noses into a vigorous debate because they wouldn't be able to stand the heat.
So, if you can't take the heat of a normal, lively debate, for pete's sake - GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN! DON'T DEMAND THAT WE TURN THE OVEN OFF! All you get from that is undercooked, tepid food/food for thought!

<H4>Is that what you want? A tepid forum?</H4> Where is the joy in that? Do you enjoy tepid, undercooked food?

Come on, guys! Have a bit of backbone!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


I am also wondering why you felt the need to post this separately to the thread in question? It would have been highly unlikely that your comments would have been missed there. Could it be because there was general agreement to my comments on that thread?

Please accept my apologies if this is not the case.<hr></blockquote>

No to your question.

I have never been afraid to post a viewpoint that was different to the viewpoints of others posting, even if I am the only one posting that viewpoint.

I wanted to make my point in the certainty that everyone would read it, as I felt it was important (my opinion only.)

I myself don't always have time to read all the threads, and sometimes go for days without reading any threads or posting. I try to catch up, but sometimes I miss stuff. I always check out new threads with interesting or eye catching headings however. My new topic post was made for this reason. I assumed others might have similar habits to myself. Of course, many people read all the threads all the time. Especially if they are moderators!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
I know this will look as though I am just supporting Cheetah because she is my daughter, but frankly, I wouldn't care who had made the post.

THE POINTS MADE ARE VALID!!!!! So are Wild Man's comments.

It is all a normal part of free and open debate between consenting adults. Non-consenting adults should not join in, just as they don't in RL. The oversensitive in RL do NOT put their noses into a vigorous debate because they wouldn't be able to stand the heat.
So, if you can't take the heat of a normal, lively debate, for pete's sake - GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN! DON'T DEMAND THAT WE TURN THE OVEN OFF! All you get from that is undercooked, tepid food/food for thought!

<H4>Is that what you want? A tepid forum?</H4> Where is the joy in that? Do you enjoy tepid, undercooked food?

Come on, guys! Have a bit of backbone!<hr></blockquote>

Fljotsdale, have you ever considered the fact that one person's wine could be another's poison? We have to make sure we have a forum that enables EVERYONE to participate - not just those who think they have "backbone". This type of confrontational nature in posting only appeared when this forum came up. We went through an entire year of debating issues but the tone and manner was friendly and congenial throughout - like friends around a campfire. Now it's feeling more and more like work to me, to be honest - put your flak helmet on and jump in, as any opinion you put forward will be kicked back at you twice as strong.

I've been wondering why there's so few people posting in this forum yet the overwhelming majority of complaints we receive is from here. With the response to a very reasonable request I posted - to not use sarcasm to disrespect and demean others - I have the answer I was looking for. Maybe you "regulars" have been so used to the way you treat each other in here that you assume that you can treat everyone else the same way.

Is THIS the kind of forum you want? One where only a select few can participate? Sorry, but this is not going to happen. It's just not worth the time and energy for us to maintain it and settle disputes between people on a regular basis. I'm a moderator, not a judge.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


No to your question.

I have never been afraid to post a viewpoint that was different to the viewpoints of others posting, even if I am the only one posting that viewpoint.

I wanted to make my point in the certainty that everyone would read it, as I felt it was important (my opinion only.)

<hr></blockquote>


In this case I apologize for coming to the wrong conclusion. Please do read my reply to you and take it in the spirit in which it was posted. I think my request is reasonable and not too difficult to adhere to? ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
I know this will look as though I am just supporting Cheetah because she is my daughter, but frankly, I wouldn't care who had made the post.

THE POINTS MADE ARE VALID!!!!! So are Wild Man's comments.

It is all a normal part of free and open debate between consenting adults. Non-consenting adults should not join in, just as they don't in RL. The oversensitive in RL do NOT put their noses into a vigorous debate because they wouldn't be able to stand the heat.
So, if you can't take the heat of a normal, lively debate, for pete's sake - GET OUT OF THE KITCHEN! DON'T DEMAND THAT WE TURN THE OVEN OFF! All you get from that is undercooked, tepid food/food for thought!

<H4>Is that what you want? A tepid forum?</H4> Where is the joy in that? Do you enjoy tepid, undercooked food?

Come on, guys! Have a bit of backbone!<hr></blockquote>

Indeed. I was about to reply to Memnoch's post to me when I saw this. Fljotsdale has pretty much said what I was going to.

Memnoch, I do not feel I am lacking in respect for others. I have never given out any worse than I've got. I get jabbed at a lot - sometimes in a friendly way, sometimes not so friendly. It's part of the debate thing.

What does seriously piss me off is when I see anti-war people treated differently from pro-war.

Shall we agree to disagree on this one?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


I've been wondering why there's so few people posting in this forum yet the overwhelming majority of complaints we receive is from here. With the response to a very reasonable request I posted - to not use sarcasm to disrespect and demean others - I have the answer I was looking for. Maybe you "regulars" have been so used to the way you treat each other in here that you assume that you can treat everyone else the same way.

Is THIS the kind of forum you want? One where only a select few can participate? Sorry, but this is not going to happen. It's just not worth the time and energy for us to maintain it and settle disputes between people on a regular basis. I'm a moderator, not a judge.<hr></blockquote>


Actually Memnoch, with respect ... your comment about so few people posting here. Many have left for the opposite reason - that they cannot have a heated debate about issues without subjecting everything they say to major censorship. I am aware that it is also very true that many have left because they found the forum too confrontational. Like I said, you can't please everyone all of the time. People have left for a variety of reasons.

To be honest, when there is no proper 'debate' going on and everyone is just agreeing with each other, I don't bother, and nor do many others. Sometimes the forum moves so slowly that you get just a couple of posts a day, most of them by Ron_B, who I'm sure gets bored talking to himself...

The whole point of debate is to air different and often conflicting views, and learn more about each other in the process. I've had some great interactions with people on here that I've disagreed with intensly, - we've even made 'friends'!! via email. That's pretty positive, if you ask me.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


Indeed. I was about to reply to Memnoch's post to me when I saw this. Fljotsdale has pretty much said what I was going to.

Memnoch, I do not feel I am lacking in respect for others. I have never given out any worse than I've got. I get jabbed at a lot - sometimes in a friendly way, sometimes not so friendly. It's part of the debate thing.

What does seriously piss me off is when I see anti-war people treated differently from pro-war.

Shall we agree to disagree on this one?<hr></blockquote>

I have no problem with you disagreeing with me at all. Your objection has been noted. ;) I'm here to enforce the rules, not to enforce my opinion on you. I'm asking for one thing - respect for your fellow posters going forward from now (I don't care what happened in the past). So no sarcasm that demeans people or their opinion, ESPECIALLY if you don't know how they will react to it. Fair?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:


The whole point of debate is to air different and often conflicting views, and learn more about each other in the process. I've had some great interactions with people on here that I've disagreed with intensly, - we've even made 'friends'!! via email. That's pretty positive, if you ask me.<hr></blockquote>

I have no issue with that. And I'm sure you did that by respecting the other person's right to have an opinion - doubtlessly they debated with you passionately, blood was spilled, but they eventually won your respect? ;)

My point is, other people who come here to post also deserve that same respect, even if they lack the debating skills or thick skin you have. They are not as quick with a witty, sarcastic comeback and so they feel like they've been humiliated. It's taken them a lot of courage to post and the last thing they want is for someone to put them down. I am here to protect the rights of THOSE people.

Disagree by all means - but don't put people down in the process is what I'm saying. If you THINK the way you phrase something will put someone down, don't say it. What do you have to lose by doing so? You can still put your point across. ;)

SC and F, how are you both doing? You know I'm an anti-war and I've been treated very fairly a while back when I attacked the mods during the Skywalker affair!

When Mem talks about sarcasm, I have a feeling that he means sarcasm directed at people. This constitutes an attack on the individual and has nothing to do with the debate. Personnally (and I'll see if Mem agrees with me on that one) I don't see any problem with factual or opiniated sarcasm. The one that is solely directed at a fact or an opinion.

BTW SC, I don't think that you'll be banned or suspended for your post. I've done wayyyyyyyyy worst [img]smile.gif[/img] Also, when it comes to Yorick, we don't know what's been done behind the scenes. Quite frankly, I'd rather it not be done on the forum.

Mem as a moderator and as a person u have my respect......but after reading over recent events and the events leading up to the start of the recent BAnning Spree I have to ask what the hell is going on over here?

As a owner of a reasonably successful forum my self and former admin over at the MH I know quite intricatly what it takes to run a forum, and I cannot honestly say that telling people how or what to post in a SERIOUS DEBATING forum is the way to go about it, ok thats just my opinion but I have been asked for it by a few of my memebers.

I am not posting against the admin and mods here, but I think that opressings peoples ability to express them selves and get their point across because your worried about offending the flower power brigade is detrimental to the whole spirit of this section.

There is a fine line between freedom of speech and being plain insulting, but it is ten times more insulting to be told I have to bite my tongue because some one cant take it in the adult world.

People dont come online to babysit each other they dont come into a Serious discussion forum to be told they cant post how they feel because it may upset some Daisy chain spinning types.

I say this with the greatest of respect for this community, and because I dont want to see you go downhill over this.

Just my opinion

Kothoses of the CRC
http://www.xsorbit.com/users2/newworlds/index.cgi

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


Fljotsdale, have you ever considered the fact that one person's wine could be another's poison? We have to make sure we have a forum that enables EVERYONE to participate - not just those who think they have "backbone". This type of confrontational nature in posting only appeared when this forum came up. We went through an entire year of debating issues but the tone and manner was friendly and congenial throughout - like friends around a campfire. Now it's feeling more and more like work to me, to be honest - put your flak helmet on and jump in, as any opinion you put forward will be kicked back at you twice as strong.

I've been wondering why there's so few people posting in this forum yet the overwhelming majority of complaints we receive is from here. With the response to a very reasonable request I posted - to not use sarcasm to disrespect and demean others - I have the answer I was looking for. Maybe you "regulars" have been so used to the way you treat each other in here that you assume that you can treat everyone else the same way.

Is THIS the kind of forum you want? One where only a select few can participate? Sorry, but this is not going to happen. It's just not worth the time and energy for us to maintain it and settle disputes between people on a regular basis. I'm a moderator, not a judge.<hr></blockquote>

You make some very valid points here, Memnoch. But, as SC said, many don't bother with this forum BECAUSE they don't feel free to express honest opinions. Both sides! The oversensitive and the thick-skinned alike!
As you know, I LOVE debate, and vigorous debate has me wriggling with delight! But, like you, I can't stand animosity. People like Ronn_Bman are a pure joy to me because I can disagree strongly with him (I usually do!), but it is done in a spirit of friendship. We have even exchanged sarcasm on occasion and neither of us has been upset/offended by it. He is a great guy. Not oversensitive, not thick-skinned. Nice. Normal. We could have great arguments together, lol! [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
The main problem with some people is that they see such argument and are so sensitive that they take offence. It is to these sensitive ones that I say 'get out of the kitchen'.
I am not suggesting a forum for only the thick-skinned - far from it! - but if some people find vigorous debate offensive, they really should not join in. There are many threads, discussing many issues, that rarely get heated, and they would feel more at home there.

Its like guests at a party - they always break down into little groups to talk about the things that interest them. Some people wander from group to group and join in everywhere, some stay with one group or another, some groups merge, split up, make new groups. Some of those groups get heated, so some people wouldn't dream of joining them, but others jump at the chance for a lively argument. Some in the group arguing go join a more peaceful group until the shouting stops.....
The host just makes sure that no fights break out and keeps the booze away from people who have had too much!

Just like in here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Yes?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


I have no problem with you disagreeing with me at all. Your objection has been noted. ;) I'm here to enforce the rules, not to enforce my opinion on you. I'm asking for one thing - respect for your fellow posters going forward from now (I don't care what happened in the past). So no sarcasm that demeans people or their opinion, ESPECIALLY if you don't know how they will react to it. Fair?<hr></blockquote>

No sarcasm that demeans people - the difficulty arises in that a comment that I do not feel to be at all personally demeaning to a person, may be taken as such by that person. I cannot know what is going on inside another person's head. If you mean 'intentionally' demeaning, yes, I can agree with that.

With regard to 'demeaning' people's opinions - I don't think I can agree to that, Memnoch. I have seen opinions posted on here, - like the one that wanted to see Afghani civilians six feet under - that I personally feel demeaned the person posting them. I reserve the right to disagree forcefully with an opinion. I also reserve the right to use sarcasm in my disagreement.

I also want to see people who disagree me retain the right to use sarcasm, should they so wish. Magness, to take an example, wrote me a post on the 'Aid' threat that is very disparaging about certain groups that he classes me as belonging to. That's just fine. I've written a reply that explains where I'm coming from, and hopefully corrects any misconceptions that he has (in my opinion.) He is free to respond as he wants. (This is NOT a complaint, Magness! Please don't stop being feisty and passionate about your beliefs on my account! Silly me, of course you wont.... [img]smile.gif[/img] )

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ryanamur:

When Mem talks about sarcasm, I have a feeling that he means sarcasm directed at people. This constitutes an attack on the individual and has nothing to do with the debate. Personnally (and I'll see if Mem agrees with me on that one) I don't see any problem with factual or opiniated sarcasm. The one that is solely directed at a fact or an opinion.

<hr></blockquote>

Ryanamur is dead right. I don't like people being smartasses at others' expense. That pisses other people off. Is that a clear enough way for me to put it? ;)

O.K. and alrighty then, at the risk of losing my job, I have to take a minute to respond to all this.
It is my firm and unshakable belief that this forum needs to exist, and exist in a fashion that allows people to express themselves in such a way that they can get their points across. I agree wholeheartedly with the rules of this forum as put forth by Ziroc in the sign-up page. I also believe that sarcasm, as a tool of debate, has a valid place here. Sarcasm is a historically well-used and well-respected tool of debate, and its presence here is appropriate, as long as it is used correctly, and not as a personal attack.
I have seen examples of excellent debate on this forum, both with and without sarcasm, which respected the individuals involved.
I believe that any blanket ruling or ban on sarcasm would be an error, and would result in a poorer forum for everyone. I think this element should be approached and assessed on a case-by-case basis, in which wise it will be treated fairly and competently by the moderators.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
And I intend to continue saying so, in a voice that is authentically *MY OWN* rather than one that is imposed upon me. If I cannot post here on those terms, then so be it.<hr></blockquote>


To add to Mem's GREAT reply, I just want you to remember:

You may speak your mind, but when your mind wishes to insult, demean or attack someone, THAT is when it's out of bounds, and we step in. Remember, I DO own this forum, and I allow A LOT, but just try to remember to act as you would as if you were in someone elses house.. You can get your word out without having sarcasm a part of it.

Koth and Aradia, welcome to Ironworks from CRC and MH. [img]smile.gif[/img] Your comments are more than welcome here, I've heard good things about Aradia and I know Koth. You guys might be missing my point, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier posts.

I don't have a problem with sarcasm by itself, perhaps that was not clear in my title. What I don't want are people acting like smartasses and taking potshots at other people by using sarcasm in a way that demeans them and belittles their opinion. It was SC's response to someone in this manner that precipitated this entire issue. We do not normally have a serious discussion forum here for that very reason - sarcasm gets misconstrued, feelings get hurt, anger and hostility grows, and so on. This is what we are trying to avoid.

This is NOT a debating forum where there's a winner or loser, this is a gamingforum with an area temporarily dedicated to the War on Terror where people can share their views. Our standards may be more stringent than with other forums you have been accustomed to, but that's because we want every single one of our members to feel that they can participate. That doesn't make us better - it's just the way we've decided to manage things. I hope this makes things clearer for you.

Anyone can disagree with the rules, by the way - just as long as they're adhered to. Respect for others. That's all we're asking for. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ziroc:



To add to Mem's GREAT reply, I just want you to remember:

You may speak your mind, but when your mind wishes to insult, demean or attack someone, THAT is when it's out of bounds, and we step in. Remember, I DO own this forum, and I allow A LOT, but just try to remember to act as you would as if you were in someone elses house.. You can get your word out without having sarcasm a part of it.<hr></blockquote>

I dont insult and attack people, Ziroc.

I disagree, sometimes vehemently, sometimes sarcastically, with some of the opinions that some people express. Sarcasm is a historically valid way of making a point, as has been pointed out by several people, and is a debating tool used by *many* on this forum, both pro and anti-war.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:
Koth and Aradia, welcome to Ironworks from CRC and MH. [img]smile.gif[/img] Your comments are more than welcome here, I've heard good things about Aradia and I know Koth. You guys might be missing my point, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my earlier posts.

I don't have a problem with sarcasm by itself, perhaps that was not clear in my title. What I don't want are people acting like smartasses and taking potshots at other people by using sarcasm in a way that demeans them and belittles their opinion. It was SC's response to someone in this manner that precipitated this entire issue. We do not normally have a serious discussion forum here for that very reason - sarcasm gets misconstrued, feelings get hurt, anger and hostility grows, and so on. This is what we are trying to avoid.

This is NOT a debating forum where there's a winner or loser, this is a gamingforum with an area temporarily dedicated to the War on Terror where people can share their views. Our standards may be more stringent than with other forums you have been accustomed to, but that's because we want every single one of our members to feel that they can participate. That doesn't make us better - it's just the way we've decided to manage things. I hope this makes things clearer for you.

Anyone can disagree with the rules, by the way - just as long as they're adhered to. Respect for others. That's all we're asking for. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

Thanks for that clarification, Memnoch! Helps a lot! [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:

Some of those groups get heated, so some people wouldn't dream of joining them, but others jump at the chance for a lively argument. Some in the group arguing go join a more peaceful group until the shouting stops.....
The host just makes sure that no fights break out and keeps the booze away from people who have had too much!

Just like in here. [img]smile.gif[/img] Yes?<hr></blockquote>

Yes, it's all fine and good to get involved in the lively arguments, lots of fun for the guests and all that! But it's a bit unfair and inconsiderate on the poor hosts who have spend the entire party jumping from group to group to break up fights, don't you think, F? WE don't get to enjoy the party in the meantime. You guys ever think of that? You think we enjoy having to spend hours here checking, rather than posting on topics we like?

We'd like the guests to exercise good judgment and resolve their differences WITHOUT us having to get involved, so we can enjoy our beers!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Actually Memnoch, with respect ... your comment about so few people posting here. Many have left for the opposite reason - that they cannot have a heated debate about issues without subjecting everything they say to major censorship.<hr></blockquote>

You are TOTALLY wrong. 70% of the people that have left have said they left because of the adversarial atmosphere here. Now, I have two choices here, remove the forum or give no more warnings to offenders.

Hell, even SAZ was so sick of the flames that he didn't want to be a Mod here.. pretty sad when it's THAT bad.

We obviously have a disconnect here. This forum is not subject to different rules from the rest of the forum just because of the subject material. We had our doubts in putting this forum up on a gaming site, because of this very reason. There are sticky threads at the top of the forum that indicate the standard of behaviour we expect.

None of us mods/admins have the time to constantly mediate disagreements between people here. We don't have to do it in ANY other forum here. The only problem we have in the other forums are trolls. Why is is that we were able to discuss serious issues in the GD forum in a spirit of friendliness and respect earlier this year but here it seems like every single post I make is to reprimand, admonish or warn someone? I don't like doing it any more than you like hearing it. I'm not here to be a schoolteacher at a playground, but I feel like I'm having to do this here all the time.

Maybe you've all gotten used to a standard of behaviour here that we wouldn't tolerate in the other forums, and I guess we're to blame for letting this become the norm here.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


I don't have a problem with sarcasm by itself, perhaps that was not clear in my title. What I don't want are people acting like smartasses and taking potshots at other people by using sarcasm in a way that demeans them and belittles their opinion. It was SC's response to someone in this manner that precipitated this entire issue. We do not normally have a serious discussion forum here for that very reason - sarcasm gets misconstrued, feelings get hurt, anger and hostility grows, and so on. This is what we are trying to avoid.
<hr></blockquote>

Memnoch, let's get this into perspective. This is what Hiram said, and what I said in reply.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>
HIRAM'S POST:
If you read one of my few posts in this forum, you would know that I have extreme difficulty with my nation spending so much money on other countries when our cities are in such disrepair. Our own citizens suffer from want of education, medical treatment, and food. The programs in place are poorly staffed and run. My sense of fairness in impinged upon when I see the United States make an effort to provide aid to another country and then come under criticism for it. )

SILVER CHEETAH'S REPLY: Well excuse me whilst I burst into tears here. The richest country in the world has citizens in need - poor education poor medical treatment and crap food?

There's plenty of money around, much of it in the pockets of people like Bill Gates, and the many many others who make unfeasibly large amounts of money whilst others are starving. Your country doesn't believe in state provided services, and proper safety nets for those in need. What you describe is the consequence of that.

When taxes continue to be lowered whilst people are in dire need, and essential services are provided by private contractors - that's what you get. It's all about priorities. Under Tony Blair, Britain continues down the road that the US has already taken. Blair is finishing what Thatcher started, the privitisation of Britain<hr></blockquote>


How does what I posted demean Hiram?

My initial comment was a little flip - does that really warrant all the fuss that has followed?

I followed up that comment with an clarification of why I'd made it. My argument was and is that as the richest nation on earth, there is actually no need for people to be living in abject poverty in America. I'd just been reading about Export Processing Zones, where 27 million people in the third world spend up to 20 hours a day at rock bottom wages making clothes for The Gap and shoes for Nike (to take just two examples). Of course, Hiram wasn't to know that. But my post was not an attack on him, nor was it demeaning to him!!

If that cannot be seen, then I think I better move to another forum, as my style of debate seems rather too strong for this one. A pity, as I have grown very fond indeed of many here. Hopefully we'll be able to continue to interact elsewhere.....

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kothoses:
[QB]Mem as a moderator and as a person u have my respect......but after reading over recent events and the events leading up to the start of the recent BAnning Spree I have to ask what the hell is going on over here?
[QB]<hr></blockquote>

If you call a 'banning spree' 2 people, then fine, but it would NOT have had to come to pass if these people did NOT break the rules.

Why do you think so many people love Ironworks? Why has it been around for 2 1/2 years? Because I DO NOT allow flamewars to happen. HUNDREDS of people have emailed me saying stuff like:

"Thank you for such a great forum, I can actually post without having to worry about being flamed"

ALL Mods can attest to those kinds of posts. Now, sure.. it'll piss some people off--usually the types that are the flame starters or their friends, but as I have said, you cannot please everyone.

Memnoch-- Email me, I am really thinking of just closing this forum.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ziroc:


Memnoch-- Email me, I am really thinking of just closing this forum.<hr></blockquote>

I just emailed you, mate.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


Yes, it's all fine and good to get involved in the lively arguments, lots of fun for the guests and all that! But it's a bit unfair and inconsiderate on the poor hosts who have spend the entire party jumping from group to group to break up fights, don't you think, F? WE don't get to enjoy the party in the meantime. You guys ever think of that? You think we enjoy having to spend hours here checking, rather than posting on topics we like?

We'd like the guests to exercise good judgment and resolve their differences WITHOUT us having to get involved, so we can enjoy our beers!<hr></blockquote>

Yes indeedy! And mostly, you know, we DO! It is often best - as you frequently do - to let people sort out their differences themselves. It is only if it goes on too long or gets REALLY nasty that you need to stop circulating and step in! [img]smile.gif[/img] Go have a nice cold beer! I'll pay! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I don't have the time now to post as much as I'd like, so let me just correct a FEW misconceptions here, particularly those of the newcomer, Aradia, and Kothoses.


FYI, <font color="red">THERE HAS BEEN NO "BANNING SPREE"</font> I know of only ONE banning from this forum and and a few 2 wk suspensions (I only know of 2 at this time). Sorry, Koth but if you were told otherwise, you were grossly misinformed. In fact in all of IW, I'm aware of a handful of bannings (only two not in gaming forums)over the last 10 months.

ok to make a few points-

ONE: Nobody said sarcasm is forbidden. What they DID say was not to use it to demean or belittle another poster. It is not necessary to fire off rude and caustic barbs in order to make a point. Ronn and Ryanamur (and others!) have made that VERY clear with their own strong opinions and good debating skills. As has been said before.. a good counterpoint or point can stand on it's own merit without need of caustic comments to bolster it or belittle the other party so yours looks better.

TWO: IW is a different type of board than the others you are thinking of. It is family oriented and gaming based(in the words of it's owner and webmaster) and we have a LARGE number of people here under the age of 18, many in the 13-16 bracket. They are not forbidden to read or post here in this temporary forum but the majority won't even come here because they fear being torn apart by more experienced debaters who seem not to notice that others aren't as 'thick skinned' or well versed in the art of debate. The owner and mods of IW want ALL members to feel they can discuss issues if they choose to and have said it is wrong to purposely use language that will drive others away, not that strong opinions may not be voiced.

Koth, "flower power brigade"? Would that mean anyone who simply isn't an experienced user of acid wit to belittle opponents in debates? ;)

THREE: This forum was NOT intended as a Serious Discussions forum but a TEMPORARY forum for WAR ON TERRORISM topics. Serious discussions and debates have been held in GD and until September 11, they did VERY well and without any major upheaval or complaints being made. I recall some very GOOD debates on controversial topics (religion, politics, war, stem cell research etc) that went off without anyone leaving the forum in anger or humiliation, and nobody was suspended or banned for misdoings in them! Why does it happen here? It completely baffles the admin of IW, I can tell you that. Right now, they have made and stated a few rules that they think will help alleviate the problem and some people feel the need to argue those rules and seemingly to challenge the owner's right and authority to make rules on his own forum.

I don't mean any disrepect to either Aradia or Koth, but if you haven't got the background here you can't know how or why the current situation has come up. The forum's history has been one of very congenial interaction even when people do not agree on very controversial issues. Debate was possible and even encouraged. And yes, tempers were sometimes lost, but apologies followed quickly... sincere apologies that were readily accepted. It seems that courtesy is being demeaned and rejected by some members who participate here these days and THAT is what offends me the most.


Cloudy

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


Yes, it's all fine and good to get involved in the lively arguments, lots of fun for the guests and all that! But it's a bit unfair and inconsiderate on the poor hosts who have spend the entire party jumping from group to group to break up fights, don't you think, F? WE don't get to enjoy the party in the meantime. You guys ever think of that? You think we enjoy having to spend hours here checking, rather than posting on topics we like?

We'd like the guests to exercise good judgment and resolve their differences WITHOUT us having to get involved, so we can enjoy our beers!<hr></blockquote>

AMEN and pass the pretzels! LOL
VERY valid point, Mems. I have seen at least one mod stop moderating this board for just that reason. The stress of putting out little brush fires all the time was more than the enjoyment factor of reading things here.

Cloudy

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Kothoses:

As a owner of a reasonably successful forum my self and former admin over at the MH I know quite intricatly what it takes to run a forum, and I cannot honestly say that telling people how or what to post in a SERIOUS DEBATING forum is the way to go about it, ok thats just my opinion but I have been asked for it by a few of my memebers.

I am not posting against the admin and mods here, but I think that opressings peoples ability to express them selves and get their point across because your worried about offending the flower power brigade is detrimental to the whole spirit of this section.

<hr></blockquote>

Koth, that's the entire point - this is a TEMPORARY section on this site. This is a gaming forum on the Ironworks Gaming site, not a serious discussion forum. This forum was put up as a courtesy to those who wanted to discuss the Sept 11 tragedy. It was not intended to become a forum for people to argue about politics. As such we expect the same standards of courtesy that we have traditionally had in this forum. This is where the disconnect is.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:
We obviously have a disconnect here. This forum is not subject to different rules from the rest of the forum just because of the subject material. We had our doubts in putting this forum up on a gaming site, because of this very reason. There are sticky threads at the top of the forum that indicate the standard of behaviour we expect.

None of us mods/admins have the time to constantly mediate disagreements between people here. We don't have to do it in ANY other forum here. The only problem we have in the other forums are trolls. Why is is that we were able to discuss serious issues in the GD forum in a spirit of friendliness and respect earlier this year but here it seems like every single post I make is to reprimand, admonish or warn someone? I don't like doing it any more than you like hearing it. I'm not here to be a schoolteacher at a playground, but I feel like I'm having to do this here all the time.

Maybe you've all gotten used to a standard of behaviour here that we wouldn't tolerate in the other forums, and I guess we're to blame for letting this become the norm here.<hr></blockquote>

THIS is one of the points I've been trying to make for a while! I have been here 10+ months now and in GD there have been good debates and I don't recall everyone there having to hiss and spit vitriole at one another, yet somehow, people of vastly differing opinons and life/posting styles managed to discuss things in a sometimes heated manner, without ticking one another off all the time and bringing mods into the fray!

DEBATE the issues, use sarcasm wisely in context, don't use spiteful remarks to make yourself look better at the other guy's expense, all it does is make the other guy want to escalate things or leave in disgust. Either way, a mod or admin gets called in.

Well I do hope that sarcasm isn't banned completely - because it would deprive us English people of one of our major forms of communication. It is natural to me to use sarcasm, although I hope I have never been nasty. I hope I will not get into trouble because my culture is different than that of the moderators ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
Do you enjoy tepid, undercooked food?
<hr></blockquote>


I love Sushi and sashimi, medium rare steaks, and Thai just-cooked vegies that are still crunchy.....

I guess that is an affirmative then.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Epona:
Well I do hope that sarcasm isn't banned completely - because it would deprive us English people of one of our major forms of communication. It is natural to me to use sarcasm, although I hope I have never been nasty. I hope I will not get into trouble because my culture is different than that of the moderators ;) <hr></blockquote>

Hi Epona! Haven't seen you for ages. Where have you been?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Actually Memnoch, with respect ... your comment about so few people posting here. Many have left for the opposite reason - that they cannot have a heated debate about issues without subjecting everything they say to major censorship. .<hr></blockquote>

The only time I ever contemplated leaving was because of the aggression, not lack of it.

I personally know of six to eight people that left because of the aggression.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
I know this will look as though I am just supporting Cheetah because she is my daughter, <hr></blockquote>

Dead right.

Same as you did with your other one. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ryanamur:

When Mem talks about sarcasm, I have a feeling that he means sarcasm directed at people. This constitutes an attack on the individual and has nothing to do with the debate. Personnally (and I'll see if Mem agrees with me on that one) I don't see any problem with factual or opiniated sarcasm. The one that is solely directed at a fact or an opinion.
<hr></blockquote>

Yo Ryanamur! When you say he means sarcasm directed at people, - but my comment in response to Hiram's post was not sarcasm directed at him. It was in response to a point he made. :Cheetah, getting really confused now:

Seems to be now the view is sarcasm is ok as long as not directed at people. But what I said that started all this fuss *wasn't* directed at Hiram personally!! Goddamn it, I like Hiram! We've interacted on AIM and I think he's a lovely guy.....

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Epona:
Well I do hope that sarcasm isn't banned completely - because it would deprive us English people of one of our major forms of communication. It is natural to me to use sarcasm, although I hope I have never been nasty. I hope I will not get into trouble because my culture is different than that of the moderators ;) <hr></blockquote>

HI Epona!

No, I can't recall ever seeing you respond to someone in a nasty way! I don't think I've ever seen you use sarcasm to cut someone down just because you had an opposing view. In fact, I've always thought you were pretty funny and witty with your responses to things! (and usually with some twist of insight that would never occur to me!)

Besides, I really do think that sarcasm in general was never the issue, belittling other posters to the point where they no longer feel they can continue posting and in some cases leave not only the War Forum, but IW, because of it is the issue. Making a hostile atmosphere that mods have to wade through to put out fires all the time is the problem Mems and Z bring up as well. The mods and Z get so much mail on this they have trouble keeping up with things. One mod left this area altogether and another won't even read here so you know it's got to be considered unpleasant in as well as time consuming. :(

Cloudy

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Epona:
Well I do hope that sarcasm isn't banned completely - because it would deprive us English people of one of our major forms of communication. It is natural to me to use sarcasm, although I hope I have never been nasty. I hope I will not get into trouble because my culture is different than that of the moderators ;) <hr></blockquote>

I think when Mem said Sarcasm, he mean it in a 'Personal attack' type of way, which is against the rules, but general sarcasm is fine, just as long as it's not directed towards someone.