OK...I have a serious question Ziroc.

Why is this "Totally funny!" an Sir Kenyth's pacifist joke 'insulting, degrading, meanspirited', and deleted. The apparent, cited reason being that it was 'potentially hurtful'. Well stop the presses. Just walking down the street is 'potentially hurtful'. Any post on this board, up to and including, "Hi, how are you today?' is 'potentially hurtful'. Where do you draw the line?

I have been feeling, in the last couple of days, that I am being penalized for having a strong opinion. I have wanted to post on several threads, but was worried that expressing my strong opinions would get me in trouble with the powers that be. While these serious threads were still on GD, I know I was one of the people who was escalating things. And I did my best to make amends. Since you have created this forum, I have done everything possible to refrain from personal insults. I have still expressed strong opinions, and in very strong terms. But with the current atmosphere, I am nervous about doing even that.

To be perfectly honesy Ziroc, when I first got involved in IW, I was a very low key poster. I was a member for over a month before I even hit 5 posts. But when the war happened and serious threads started popping up, I immediately got involved. I have made friends here, met people I like and respect, and it is because of those threads, and this forum.

And now, everyone is walking on eggshells and almost seem afraid to post their opinions for fear that they will be banned. Others are leaving. Some came back, and I am glad of that. The atmosphere is a thousand times more tense than it was a week ago. Now, I, for one, have no desire to be either banned, or to leave. But, if all that is left is fluff, then I will have no reason to post. And currently, GD is mostly fluff. I understand that this is backlash from the stress that has been going on, but its still a factor.

Anyway..the point of all this is that I would just like to know where the line is? Are we still allowed to post our opinions? Are we still allowed to do it in strong terms? Are we still allowed to engage in those spirited debates? I understand the need to avoid personal attacks, and to have respect. But one poster's 'personal opinion' is anothers 'personal attack'. So where is the line being drawn?

I hope this doesn't sound belligerent, or out of line. I am genuinely curious and upset. I feel like I have found a second home in IW. But, in my first, real home, I dont tiptoe around for fear of upsetting people's sensibilities, and I dont believe I should have to here.

Thanks in advance for the time.

Nachtrafe

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"
http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Give it time mate. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif When we get sick or injured we have to lie down and heal, then get up and walk slowly, then maybe run and then get into a kerfuffle and end up back in hospital where we have to lie down and heal, then get up and walk slowly then...... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

I think that the general idea is not to offend anyone. The best way I think I can describe it is to be extremely politically correct. Like in everyday life. No HBO style for a little bit. I think the mods are being pretty fair though, at least it is for both sides, unlike the real world. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg
Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

In the months before I left Australia it was not politically correct to be politically correct. That is it was politically correct to be politically incorrect. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Needless say to confused it me did.

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

As I posted here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ML/000105.html

And Here:
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ML/000001.html

The line is really simple, no personal attacks, and no attacks on someones beliefs/race/religion/creed. That Joke post may have been funny to some, but it also made many people mad.

No matter what I do here, I will put someones nose out of joint. I have learned that, and except it.. SUCKS, but It must be done. Ironworks hasn't become one of the best forums on the net for poor management. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif Our Mods and I don't take sides, and try to look at each post from a 'neutral' position.


PS: Just for future reference (For everyone), please email me privately for questions like these. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

Nachtrafe (happy to meet you, BTW http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif), I've been following the exact opposite reasoning than you did !

Two weeks, one week ago, I was getting more and more afraid to post, as I am also a person with strong opinions. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/uhoh2.gif Then at some point, 3 days ago, I decided that no, I won't let others throw me out of here, I am as entitled to my opinions as everyone else in here, so I WILL check and double-check my writings so as to keep in the area of personal respect, but I WILL post what I think and feel with no fear. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Now, what happened yesterday from Ziroc and the Mods make me feel much better here ! I know that I will be protected from disrespect towards me - and, even more important, I KNOW that others will be protected aggainst my eventual crossing of the rules. I am human, not perfect. I have strong opinions and a temper. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif If I get banned, I will submit willingly - the possibility that I may get banned is the very guarantee that allows me to post freely now. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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http://www.ot-nancy.fr/photos_ot/m_office_exterieur.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

The world is my oyster !

Sometimes, Nachtrafe, the phrase 'politically correct' is not a dirty word, lol! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Only sometimes, though! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif And this is one of those times!

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/flojs_14783.gif

Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Submit to the Choc-head!!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...-mycat-anm.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

(Moiraine goes all flat on the floor, all you can see is a puddle-Gnome http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif)

Hi Z. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/xyxwave.gif, I'm serious you know, you must not hesitate to ban me or any of us, if we cross the respect line.



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http://www.ot-nancy.fr/photos_ot/m_office_exterieur.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

The world is my oyster !

The reason why you don't see it just like Nachtrafe is because you didn't live the "rift" per say. The people that were here before last week were just merely posting their opinions when things started to go sour. All of us made calls for it to stop but it didn't. Attacks and insults continued to fly here and there. Now, those attacks were not the result of debating opinion but rather because people started to take things personnally. Some rightfully others not.

Now, those tread like the pacifist joke tread was fine about 2 weeks ago. People just look at them and started laughing. When the mood changed, people started to see those tread as a personnal attack (which they are not).

All here are believers that you can debate the idea and the ideology of someone... so long as you respect the person. Those jokes IMO are not personnal attacks on persons. However, Ziroc said that they are not allowed on this board. So, since I enjoy the privilege of posting on this board, I will respect his judgement call and abide by it.

I'm like you. I do think alot before pressing the submit button. If I wouldn't say it to your face, I won't post it. I've made posts in the past that didn't respect IW policy. I did them because I thought that they needed to be done. It was hard but I'd do it again if I had to... even if it meant that I'd be banned.

That being said, I'm glad that Ziroc put is foot down. It will, in the long run, make this a better place to participate in. Hopefully people that are now reluctant to post or that got banned will come back understanding that they did cross the line and can again participate in this great discussion. But really, that's between Ziroc and them. Regardless how much we might miss them. They have to work out their differences.

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-25-2001).]

This should answer your question, Nachtrafe - you may have seen it before.

I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.

This is the cornerstone around which the concept of freedom of speech is built, as long as it is done with respect for others.


Debating is not about winning or losing, it's about expressing a point of view and listening to another person expressing theirs. There is no shame in agreeing to disagree when the argument starts to go nowhere.


Don't take things personally. Life's too short to get upset about another person's point of view.

I know most of you love a good spirited debate, since most of you are quite strongly opinionated, if somewhat tactless about expressing opinions, serenely confident in your righteousness http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif and in the other's wrongness. This is not a problem unless you start making snide remarks about each other which don't have anything to do with the topic at hand, as this usually leads to shouting profanities at each other, which then becomes a problem. However, I'm sure will not happen, given that we're all VERY good at exercising self-control, right?

Just remember that two of the most difficult things to do on the internet are: 1) admit that you can't change the other person's point of view; and 2) accept that failing to change the other person's point of view does NOT mean you have lost the argument. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif



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http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

Firstly Hola Wingboy http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

Well I will add in my "newbi* opinion to this, Being from England I am sort of looking from the outside in, however the UK is the second most involved of Americas allies, so we see a lot.

Now the simple fact is, I think Americans have enough to worry about, and fight with, without people calling each other out on every little thing, I think before you post an attack on some one here for what ever reason you should think about how that makes you look.

Now I have spoken to a few people whome I know from MH who have been attacked over their views on this section and I find it sad.

The one good thing to come from the Terrorist attacks that you have suffered has been that -- over here atleast-- There has been Unity, between all people of all faiths, the free western world seem determined more than ever to show unity through diversity, that is one of the strongest foundations of UK society, we are truly multi cultural and while we dont always follow the same beliefs I respect my Muslim/Buddist/Christian/Jewish/jedi, neighbours for haveing their beliefs and being strong enough to follow them, in this the darkest of times for some.

so yes Ziroc has every right to ban people for haveing no respect for each other this is after all his forum, but I think aslong as you respect each other you can argue a point, that is good, debate and use intellegance and logic and reason to form a good sound argument, you can learn a lot from each other this way. But if you resort to argueing with the person, of besmirching their belifs which they hold true, and which they follow, then you lose any esteem and respect that you should deserve.

Now I have seen attacks on people for their religion, their lack of it, i have seen people called out over christianity, Judaism, Islam, I say if you cant agree with some ones beliefs, respect them, otherwise we become in essance as bad as those fundamentalists who perpatrated the horrific atrocitys of the 11th.

Remember that, before you post inflamed views on another persons way of life, if it doesnt hurt you, why attack it?

It take responsibilty for not emailing a mod concerning the humor. I took the matter to the public in general out of a need to find an agreeing point of view. It sucks feeling like a "singled out minority".

I think the mods here do a great job under sometimes difficult circumstances.

Thanks for the answer Ziroc. LOL...I dont have my nose out of joint. Really I dont. I was(and still am) concerned about one of my favorite places on the net. I appreciate your straightupnes(is that a word? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ).

And I firmly believe IW is one of the best sites on the net. Period.

PS: Sorry. Was tired and wasn't thinking. From now on, anything like this will be E-Mailed.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"
http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Nice to meet you too Moraine. Cloudy has told me alot about you(All good, I promise.) http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

FWIW, I'm glad to see that you are posting. What I have seen so far is eloquent and passionate.

So, in a completely non-official way...Welcome to the War Forum. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"
http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Hmmmm...OK...I'll grant you that its not evil in this context. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
Otherwise though...its one of the dirtiest words I know. But only one. HEHE http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

PS: Technically, its 2 dirty words...oh well. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif :happy2:

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"
http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Thanks for the response too Mems. I've seem that quote before. And I try very hard to live it. Kudos to you as well for the awesomeness that is IW.


PS: One little bitty thing..."Debating is not about winning or losing" HAH! I spent most of my high school being a semi-pro debater. And seriously considered the legal field. Ask any lawyer about whether a debate is about winning or losing. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"
http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

What do you mean, we're not good enough to be the best for you? I'm sad, I'm sure that others will be too. I personnally think that this is THE best place on the net... period http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

Wingboy...http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif
Hi yourself KothieWothieSnookieOokums. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

You know dude. Sometimes you amaze me. This is one of the best posts I have read, anywhere, in ages. Thank you very much.

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"In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!"

"May the Colors of Liberty never run"
http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Thank you Ziroc, and Mems for answering this. And thanks everyone else for your insight. No matter how upset or frustrated I may get, its things like this that remind me why I come here.

Thanks everyone else I didn't answer individually. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Laters all...See you on the boards.

No worries, Nachtrafe. Always glad to be of service. A question asked with respect and courtesy deserves an answer in kind.

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http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif