What a question huh? Ive heard both sides of this argument as of late, and both sides have substantial points.
Did you know that the prophet Mohammed waged war in 600 A.D. during Rhamidad?(forgive the spelling..I'm no good at Arabic!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif)
As did Irans leader(cant spell his name too) in the 80's against Iraq.
What should we do? Should we show the world that we are not at war with Islam by respecting this holy month? Or will that send a different message? I've heard it said by our Secretary of Defence that BECAUSE this NOT a "holy war", or a "war against Islam" is precisely why we shouldn't and wont stop the fight against terrorism, Al Queda and the Taliban.(I agree)
I do think if that is the route we take, that support from other Arab nations will take a huge blow!
What do you guys think?

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

[This message has been edited by Bullvye (edited 10-24-2001).]

Hmmmmm....that is a tough one. I think we should ask the Islamic countries if they would prefer us to continue and get it over with as quickly as possible or to hold off on bombing at least and allow it to drag out and allow more Afghan's to starve. The sooner we finish this the sooner we can get aid into the country.


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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/prime.gif

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

I guess it all depends on who we feel is being the most disrupted.

If we feel it will help put pressure on the Taliban, that's ok!

But if it causes distress for the innocent civilians not so good!

On the other hand it may cause our opponents to gather sympathy while weakening support of our friends in Muslim states!

I guess this is all obvious, but I've never had a problem with stating the obvious. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

It is clearly a question the governments in the coalition need to address with much thought. They may want to get all their bombing finished up before then.

Of course the other issue is Winter is coming!

Mark

I see your piont loud and clear. But lets not forget that ending this quickly against the terrorist's in Afghanistan will not win the war on terror any quicker.
Afghanistan is just the beginning to ending WORLD terrorism. But the sooner my buddies come home the better!!
And why should we ask anyone for their permission?
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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

[This message has been edited by Bullvye (edited 10-24-2001).]

I'm not saying ask for their permission http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif But we should lay the cards on the table for them and make sure they they feel a part of it. And if we finish with Afghanistan before the holy month is over, we should definitely not move on until after it is over.

Tough one, Bullvye. I'd like to see the bombing stop altogether, as everyone probably knows by now, and other methods used to get bin Laden - but since my wishes don't affect anything...! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

I know that in WW1 & WW2, the fighting stopped on christmas day between the German and allied forces, but that is not really the same since both armies were of the same basic religion - (did this happen on the Japanese fronts? History a little shaky).

That said, then you have to ask yourself: would THEY stop for a christian holy period, such as Lent? I beg to doubt it.





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Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

I dont see winter being that big of a problem. Ithink the media has blown that one WAY out of proportion. The operators we have in place to fight this particular type of conflict are well trained to carry out their mission in ANY type of weather.
Uncomfortable yes,....a problem no...not at all!

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

Oh o.k. Not sure I agree with you about stopping in november, but I understand where youre comming from with making them part of it.

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

I think the concern about winter is not for our soldiers, but for the Afghani civilians, Bullvye.

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/flojs_14783.gif

Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

I know the Winter was a big issue when Afghanistan fought Russia, I guess times and technology have changed since then.

Mark



[This message has been edited by skywalker (edited 10-24-2001).]

As far as stopping in November, look at it this way... we gave the Taliban about what, 3 weeks? We should extend the same to any other country, and by then the holy month would be over with.

I agree Fljotsdale (Hey,I spelled your name without looking!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif). I would like to see the bombing stop. I remember Rumsfeld (sp?) saying at the beginning there were very few targets. Makes me wonder what we are hitting now.

Mark

I agree with you totally! Well almost, except for that little thing about stopping the responce altogether, but lets save that argument for another timehttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
Sorry I cant help you on the Japanese question, but now I've gotta look it up! Ill let you know if I can dig up anything that would shed a little light in that area.

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

[This message has been edited by Bullvye (edited 10-24-2001).]

I've wondered about that myself.

And congrats on the spelling! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/flojs_14783.gif

Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

TROOPS! We are targeting Taliban and Al Queda troops at the moment. Should be a prelude to an offensive from the Northern Alliance. Though until a legit government is in place, this could drag on for a while.

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

[This message has been edited by Bullvye (edited 10-24-2001).]

Oh, good! Saves me doing it! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/biglaugh.gif

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/flojs_14783.gif

Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

That is a concern!

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

we should stop bombing at Nov, just to show the muslim world that we respect their religion

Duh (on my part)! Makes sense, I've kinda been avoiding that part of the news lately. Mostly keeping tabs on the home front. Thanx Bullvye!

Mark

No prob!......Dont sweat the home front. Alcohol kills Anthrax, so have a beer(I am) and dont sweat the stuff you cant do anything about. ( not that you're worried,..I'm just trying to be funny )

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

I can share in the humor, but not in the beer. I sorta gave it up when I came home one night (don't know I got home safely), parked the car in the garage (don't remember how I did it) and fell asleep in a bowl before my wife could pour soup in it! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif I think I saved my marriage by quitting alcohol!http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Mark

I know the feeling. I used to wake up nude, on the hood of my car, with my keys in my arse saying "It's just flooded!" and thinking "why cant I get this dam car started?"
Al I did was change brands!..........LOLhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


Just kidding

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

Been a long time since I saw that joke! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gifhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gifhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gifhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

Sorry I've derailed this topic. Let's get back to the issue at hand!

Mark

Yes.....ahem,ahem,.....Lets!
Which brings me back to my original post, "The father of the Muslim religion" Mohammed,(again not so good with Arab spellings) waged war in 600 A.D., during the holy month-long holiday in november, so why didn't that offend his followers then?

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/bullvye4.jpg

I'm not BAD,.....but the BAD don't mess with me!"

[This message has been edited by Bullvye (edited 10-24-2001).]

Hmmm... This one has me a little torn. I'm all for the war effort (surprise! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ) But I can really see everyone's points on this. Kind of a 'damned if you do, damned if you don't'. ::scratches head:: I'm stumped!

I guess if I were really pushed, I would say to keep going, don't let up and give them the chance to regroup. After all, if we are going to stop now, why did we even start? Why not have put it off until after in the first place?
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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 10-25-2001).]

I reckon they should stop for Ramadan.

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

Hey you!!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Just curious of how you came to this decision. I'm having a hard time making up my mind and any insight you have would be greatly appreciated, oh wise one. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif


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http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg
Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

Doing unto others. (Though I want want to be bombed in the first place http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif )

It gives the civilians some respite. They are unfortunate victims, and though, as you know I support action against terrorism, it would be like someone attacking us on Christmas or Easter for example.

The time could be spent shoring up in other areas. Hitting the propaganda front for example. The propaganda ops could hammer the fact home that Islam is respected by seven million Americans. I wonder if any are in the military? Surely we'd be respecting them by not getting them to fight during the day on an empty stomach? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Just my P.O.V. Not particuarly passionate either way. War, though in this case a necessary evil, is still an evil. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

What are you thinking?



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

I wonder, though, if they will hate us anyway. Maybe they will see it as a propaganda stunt and not respect us at all no matter what we do. ::sighs, tapping fingures lightly on the desktop::

What to do, what to do....



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http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg
Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

The Pakistani and Egyptian governments would be the ones to listen to on that matter as they'd be the ones most affected if there's a substancial shift in public opinion against support for the Coalitions military action.

I know China and some Asian nations were worried about the effect plowing through Ramadan would have in the Islamic Asian nations (non Arabic) of Indonesia and Malaysia. The Aussie embassy was given a hoax anthrax scare in Kuala Lumpur I believe.

Indonesia, the worlds largest Islamic nation of 180 million+ people is right next door to Australia.



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

I definately see where you are coming from. I guess the best thing to do is ti cease fire. Resume after their holiday. Then if they still don't like us, we can definately say that we aren't to blame.

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Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member


"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

Sounds like what I said http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif Although as I also pointed out, I doubt that aid can be reestablished in that amount of time to any extent, so the reprieve would only allow the Afghan peoples to go hungry a while longer. I think we should get the opinions of other Muslim nations on the issue, on whether it would be better to end the attacks and resume aid as quickly as possible, or to shear off for the holiday and let the nation sit, and possibly starve.

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/prime.gif

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

Imo, although, as I said earlier in this thread, I do not think they would stop for a christian holiday, I believe Yorick is correct in this and the bombing SHOULD be stoppped for Ramadan - for two reasons - 1) to deliver as much food and shelter and medical aid we can over that month to the Afghani civilians. They are in a dire situation. 2)If we don't, we lose the support of other Muslim nations and that could be disastrous.

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/flojs_14783.gif

Proud to be Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Well, here we go, this will surprise many but I don't think that the bombing should stop.

First of all, yes, it's a Muslim holiday. SO?!?!?!, War is war people, a battle doesn't stop for you to pray. A battle stops when you're ready to sign on a piece of paper that you'll do whatever the winner says you'll do. Not before!

Strategicly speaking, this would give the Taliban a whole month to regroup and reorganize their defenses. That's not a good idea considering that the Pentagon is actually surprised that they're still around.

EDIT: I also forgot that the Northern Alliance (our so called Allies in Afghanistan) want to mount an offensive before winter. That means that if we want them to succede, we have to provide them strategic and tactical bombing support. Bush wants the Taliban out. He must continue the fighting if he wants to succeed quickly (well, quicker than if you stop).
This, is comming from a guy who doesn't support the idea of bombing Afghanistan or any other country. However, I do recognize that the USA already started the bombing (so essentially, in my eyes, commited a mistake) and unfortunately, they must take it to it's natural end.

BTW: unless I'm mistaking there was battle over the Christmass holiday during WWII. The battle of the Ardennes being one of them. If I'm not mistaking, Patton freed Bastogne (sp), a small town where roughly 11,000 soldiers from the 101 were surrounded by Germans, on December 26th, 1944. That's the battle where the colonel in charge of the 101 told the German general "Nuts" when he was asked to surrender http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-25-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-25-2001).]

I must admit, I am surprised at this being your answer http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/eek.gif

I agree the bombing should not be stopped simply for the fact that you can't stop in the middle of a war and take a month off. We have to work with our Muslim allies to help them understand, but as said previously...

Obviously, what Muslims have done during their religious events, will be interpreted quite differently than the actions the coalition takes during Ramadan. That's why it's important to point this out to our Muslim partners, so they can lend Islamic "legitimacy".

As to the occassions in WWI when Allied and Axis forces stopped fighting on Christmas Day, it was an impromtu, mutual ceasefire and very short, only lasting a few hours to a day. It did not happen everywhere and did not happen every year during the war.(as evidenced by a previous post in this thread).

Keep in mind, once the Taliban is ousted, the Afghany people will be fed, and cared for in a way they never have been before if the promises from the international community are true. Why didn't we do this after the Soviets left? We screwed up.

People who were against the bombing to start with will, of course, think it should be stopped, but I do find the views of those in favor of the bombing campaign who want to stop very interesting.

For those who say American's are insensitive, imagine any other nation, at any time in history giving consideration to people's religious beliefs in regard to military action.

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/rb.gif http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif

"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-25-2001).]

Ehem! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Mind you, I'm looking at it from a military strategist point of view. I'm concient that this will create havoc in the Muslim world but Bush wanted a war, he better be prepared to fight it because the other side will be if he stops now!

This as nothing to do with respect. It's pure strategy. Why would you want to give your ennemy the opportunity to reorganize himself. It's ludicrus and counter productive!

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

You being the exception to the "rule", imagine that http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hihi.gif

I think we're beginning to know each other too well because I actually considered including a disclaimer for you.



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/rb.gif http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif

"Your right to swing your fist ends where my nose begins."

I guess it all depends on whether the military advantage surpasses the diplomatic cost. I don't think it does. From a moral perspective I think they should stop, since I doubt if it will affect the campaign much. It looks like there will be troops there for the winter anyway.

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http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

See, I can be rational at times http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

As I recall it is our Islamic supporters (Pakistan, Egypyt, ect.) that have voiced concern of bombing during a holy time. The coalition agianst terrorism could lose some strategic ground if they stopped bombing, but may lose support from allies in the region if they do continue. So the real question is whats more important? Keeping military pressure on the talibon or sustaining good relations with the non-terrorists Muslim nations/people.

Are there any Muslims here with a perspective on this?