With the war between America and Afganistan, many innocent people will die and loose thier homes.
Who are the terrorists now?

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http://members.fortunecity.com/agrid...s/byronas2.gif

Where there are monsters and barbarians there will be Byronas fighting against them.

Not this debate again.
Im not a big fan of the U.S, their arrogant and B.L is right about many things.
In fact they killed alot more civies then B.L, but that doesnt mean they shoudnt defend themselves from him and neither gave anyone Bin Laden the right to fly in and kill all those inocent man & woman!
But the truth is, its not America or Bin Laden who are evil, its our intire species. From the beginning of time we have used religion as a way to beter ourselves and instead of bringing us closer toghether we just used it as an excuse to kill our fellow men! And if we would have been in the place of the U.S, woudnt we have abused our power for our own gain.
Why cant we all just get along?



[This message has been edited by Dreamer128 (edited 10-19-2001).]

Still the same people. The terrorists who killed 6,000 innocents and the political leaders who thought terrorists were more important than their own civilian population.

Afganistan is one of the most impoverished nations in the world, it was before and is now. Yes there are homeless Afghans now, they are called refuges, and they were refuges before September 11.

Civilians being killed is always tragic, even more so when they are purposely targeted.


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http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif

"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-19-2001).]

Because there are many who "strongly" disagree with what you posted! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Mark

Dreamer128, I don't believe that religion, in its true form, I mean Christianity, has brought any death. It's the way people manipulate and twist its truths that has caused so much pain and trouble.
The fact is that when people are born, the only taint in them is the sin of Adam and Eve. It's however the influence of society, the greed, the hatred that perverts and changes and alters their way of living, their conception of the relationships between other people etc.

Relgion itself its a wonderfull thing but we just use it as another excuse to kill one another. If there wasnt any religion whe'd find another excuse to blow each other to hell.

The problem with the world today is that it's filled with people http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif



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http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif

"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)

" Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."

Hebrews 11:1

LOL, Yeah.
We should keep in mind that this planet isnt ours to exploit.
This world is not our property.

[This message has been edited by Dreamer128 (edited 10-19-2001).]

Even though we're on the oposite end of the spectrum, I'm sure the two of us would get along just fine http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

The problem with bombing Afghanistan is not that some of the civilians will die or loose their house. It's a question of national interest on our part. Personnaly, wouldn't be for the ripple effects, I would have no problem doing with the killing of civilians. The problem is not that civilians die, it's that for every of their civilian that dies, the ranks and support for terrorists increases in the Middle East. Thus, in the end, making it harder for us to actually win this war.

Who the terrorists are, that's easy, we all are... but we're the righteous one http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-19-2001).]

No, terrorists target innocent people intentionally and favor them over millitary targets. If the terrorists has the choice it will be a civilian target rather than millitary one.

If the USA was doing that I could see the point, but it is not. You really have to twist things to make the USA the terrrorists.

I said it before and I'll say it again. There is no such thing as an innocent civilian. If you are aware of your country's actions to the detriment of others, you're not innocent. And if you're not aware of it, you're just as responsible for not informing yourself or simply accepting the situation as it is.

Our society as a whole is based on the principle that we elect our leaders. Those leaders then take actions and the responsibility for those actions lies both with the government and the population that elected it. In case of a totalitarian regime, it also falls on the population because it obviously accepts the regime or a coup would have taken place.

Now, actions provoque reactions. Which is exactly what we have seen on 9-11. In this case, many actions were present (which I'm not even going to get into in this tread), and, we saw the reaction that they intaled. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

To claim total innocence is like negating the social contract that holds society together.

Of course we have to really twist things to make America (or Western Civilization) the terrorist... that's us. Go to Afghanistan and ask who the terrorist is, they'll answer Bush! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

So, in essence, we are all terrorists. It just so happens that we are the righteous ones (well, to us anyway http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif)

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-19-2001).]

That changes nothing,

A terrorist intentionally targets civilians over millitary ones.

And you are twisting that fact to fit it to the United States to make your point.

You are twisting things to your own logic so badly here that it's not even worth it for me to get into a debate with you about it. This has to be the most right-wing, .... n/m we're concentrating on military targets and if civilian targets get hit well, we gave them 3 weeks. They aimed right off at a place that had NO military value, only civilians. I am ashamed.

Prime

Okay, here, maybe. But in Afghanistan? Please tell me how they are supposed to inform themselves? Their press is biased, most of them are impoverished, starving, homeless and exploited. How are they supposed to find *relalatively* neutral information on what's going on (completely neutral information is pretty impossible)? And - what about the children? Of COURSE they wouldn't inform themselves, even if they could, they're kids! Does anyone expect them to go and read newspapers - if they could read? If there were neutral newspapers? Don't they count as innocent civilians?
Sorry for the tone of this post, I'll go cool down now *takes a nice, long, COLD shower*

BTW, Dreamer, I think I agree with you. We'll all blow each other to oblivion and take the rest of the planet with us sometime ("we" being humanity in general, I mean look at our history), but it's not necessarily because of religion. Religion has been used as an excuse, that's all.
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Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB
Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe
Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG)
Magess of Lady Lioness' Court
Saint of the SoS
Historian of IW
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Lux omnis est
Once Upon A Paper Writer's Forum



[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 10-20-2001).]

YAY!! I am a terrorist!! (look at the post above)

Time to celebrate!! YAY!! everyone is a torrorist here!! YAY!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/No...ons/icon23.gif

wait, did I miss something here?

**takes out his idiot-to-be-killed list and adds another name**

I did not mean that we are all terrorists, I meant that there seems to be a flaw in humans - the violence flaw. I mean, look at our history. It's enough to make you cry. Many people don't have it, but one person is one person too many.
BTW, I only partially meant that BTW in my last post. I'm just a bit down today (as always http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif)

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 10-20-2001).]

The ones with the motives that most accurately fit the description. America gave full warning, and are reacting in self defence.


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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

sigh...

**hugs**

**hugs** back.

I agree with Yorick, btw. Although the Americans are killing innocent (yes, innocent) civilians, they are not doing so on purpose. They gave warning before they attacked, although I doubt many of the civilians heard it. It is definetely a controversial point, but I would not call the Americans terrorists.

I find it funny that you mentionned that the press was biased, I don't recall seing any news segment on American TV (since that's all I watch) mentionning that Bin Ladden was a good guy or that Bush was a bad guy... or even that America's foreign policy over the last 50 years had anything to do with it. For the children, you are rigth, they are the only "innocents" in all this mess.

Anyway, I'm not using twisted logic when I say that we are all terrorist, of course to us, are actions are perfectly rational, motivated, calculated and excusable. Why else would we do it? The problem is that people fail to see that on the other side of the fense, those actions that we consider rational, motivated, calculated and excusable are not considered as venerable as we would like them to be.

To paraphrase Skywalker (Mark), "to you, he's a terrorist but to someone else, he's a freedom fighter". So, in essence, because you are a freedom fighter doesn't mean that you'll be considered as such by others. That's why I said that we are all terrorists.

You're partly right when you say that religion doesn't have anything to do with it. The reality of it is that it's a matter of self-interest. Sometime, that interest is brandished under the form of religion, virtue, economic, politic. But the bottom line is people only fight to protect what is in their perceived best interest.

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

On this Amreica is the or a terrorist in it actions. Does any see the differance in an attack and a counter-attack? One is an action the other is a reaction.
As for the innocents, THERE ARE NO INNOCENTS IN A COMBAT ZONE, that is why war is so terrible. War must not be entered into lightly but when it is entered into it must be waged with such ferocity and brutality that it is over quickly. With either you, or your enemy, dead or surindered.

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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

John, I'm not sure who you wanted to reply to but I'll answer you anyway.

First, a clarification on my part. I have no problem with the USA actually bombing Afghanistan and with "colateral damage". That's in Western Civilization interest to do so. You're right in war, there are no innocents (I've made that point in the past).

My problem resides with the fact that for every ounce of colateral damage we inflict, we are helping the terrorist cause by potentially helping them boost anti-Western Civilization sentiments and recruiting more people.

If I have to chose which of the two interest is more important to the security of our civilization, I definatly think that dealing with future potential terrorist is more important than simply a totalitarian government in place on the other side of the world who happens to support terrorists. Even if we remove the Talibans, terrorists can still work. If we remove the terrorist and leave the Talibans in place, we've taken care of our problem.

So, out of the 2, the focus should be to go after the terrorist and not the Talibans. Going after the Talibans actually (IMO) goes to the detriment of our bigger national interest. So why do it? The true ennemy here, tho they support Bin Ladden, is not the Talibans, it's Bin Ladden and the other terrorists of his network!

Any way, there's no difference between action and reaction... they're both actions!

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

Ryanamur,
I wasn't addressing anyone in particular.
Result-wise there may be little diff. in an action and a reaction, but intent-wise there is a world of differance. (I'll illustrate my point) Lets say that you and I are rivals in life we argue philosphy, we compete economicly, we even attempt to undermind each other's romances, our friends even hate each other and have come to blows, we show total contempt for each other. Then one day while walking down the street, I come out of nowhere and punch you in the nose, I have crossed the line. Now consider that for awhile I have struck you and you have not retaliated in kind. Then one day you decide to strike back in kind After I have struck you. Nowhere in civilized society (side note where does the "i" before "e" except after "c" rule come onto effect in English?) would you're punch back be concidered the same as my original punch. mine was an attack (action) your's a counter attack (reaction). D


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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

While probably true, I think what he was referring to can more appropriately be defined in this way.

Formally stated, Newton's third law is:

"For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction."

Translated from Physics into our current situation:

"Don't do the crime, if you can't do the time."

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http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif

"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)

http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/rb.gif

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-21-2001).]

HERE HERE!!!!



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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

I dont agree that when people are born there is any taint in them whatsoever! Please explain what you mean by the sin of Adam and Eve. Questioning what you're told? Not doing as you are told? That can be a very positive trait, if you ask me. Nations of obedient robots are just what we don't want, surely!!



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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

i object to the idea that religion's only true form is christianity????????

hello?????

can we have some kind of thought process around that statement?

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/tracey5_10096.gif

offended mistress of the illuminati

i object to the idea that religion's only true form is christianity????????

hello?????

can we have some kind of thought process around that statement?

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http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/tracey5_10096.gif

offended mistress of the illuminati

Religion is "the service and worship of God or the supernatural" according to Merriam-Websters Collegiate Dictionary (a great online tool).

"Religion is as religion does" (a rough translation from Forrest Gump's mama)

Christians (me included) believe their beliefs are the true beliefs.

Muslim's believe their beliefs are the true beliefs.

Hindo's, etc...,et al.

We all understand that others have other beliefs. But we each also believe our own is the only "correct" religious belief.

I'm not saying, you have to change your beliefs to mine, nor do I want you to try and change my beliefs to yours.

I hope this answered(in some small way) your question.

Peace http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif
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http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif

"The Martyr" (excerpt)

There is sobbing of the strong,
And a pall upon the land;
But the People in their weeping
Bare the iron hand:
Beware the People weeping
When they bare the iron hand.

--Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln)

http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/rb.gif

[This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-21-2001).]

Yes, I found this statement a little off as well http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/uhoh2.gif Unless he meant when he said "I don't believe that religion, in its true form, I mean Christianity, has brought any death" that, he didn't believe Christianity in its true form has brought any death, not that religion in its true form was Christianity?

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Goddess of Undress
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OLD COOTS eye candy and Disrobed Division of the ORT
And her sidekick Pink

I read that too.

Perhaps this is put better.

I don't believe that Christianity in its true form has brought any death.

However this is in error as Christians have been persecuted and killed for their faith.

Perhaps this is the intent:
I don't believe that Christianity in its true form has brought any puruit of others deaths from its's adherants.



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

Byronas, the definition of a Terrorist is:

The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

We had NO intention of killing innocent bystanders. We did not seek them out on purpose to kill them. We are going after the ones responsible. There is a difference.

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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks

I suppose you are right Ziroc.


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Where there are monsters and barbarians there will be Byronas fighting against them.

Very well put Ronn. Everybody is right when it comes to his own beliefs. Equaly, everybody who don't believe like I do are wrong by my standing. Does that mean that they are really wrong, no, only that I perceive them as such.

Christinaty is not all encompasing. Many, just as equal, religions out their exist. And this comes from an atheist. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential :)

Ziroc,

I agree with you but don't forget that to them (innocent bystanders) they might think that we were targeting them. To them, that would make us terrorists.

After all, we do perceive Bin Ladden as a terrorist because he does target us. However, over there, some consider his action perfectly warranted and he's not a terrorist but rather a defender of Islam.

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 10-22-2001).]

A defender who uses terrorist actions. The action define the label, not the motive. Defender of Islam is a motive, terrorism is an action. He can actually be both as they do not cancel each other out.

The original IRA was a 'liberator of Ireland', yet used guerilla and pseudo terrorist actions.



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif

A defender who uses terrorist actions. The action define the label, not the motive. Defender of Islam is a motive, terrorism is an action. He can actually be both as they do not cancel each other out.

The original IRA was a 'liberator of Ireland', yet used guerilla and pseudo terrorist actions.

America is not practicing terrorism on the Afgahnis but open war. There is a differnce which is why we have a different word. We do not say the Americans visited terrorism on the Hiroshimans. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-22-2001).]

True, but that is why we are dropping letters and radio's down for them to understand what is going on. Heck, the North. Alliance didn't even know why the USA was there (Some of them). It's scary. It's not like they all have TV's with CNN or some news channel to watch and know what is happening. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif.



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Ziroc™
Ironworks Webmaster
www.tgeweb.com/ironworks