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This is in reference to Flojtsdale's question Why did God let some but not all survive in the recent tragedies? It is a worthy question and I want to answer.
I want to be clear that I think everyone has a claim to God and a right to share, think, consider, and question as they please and maybe learn something for themselves. I discredit any sort of "my religion is better than yours" or "you cant talk about god because your a *fill in the blank* or not a *fill in the blank*" If you can respect my views, then share yours, whether they contrast or compliment my own, if you will. Please be thoughtful. I have little care for debates on topics like this. Past expirience teaches me well. Feel free to question though. I like questions when they have substance and lead to better understanding. Anyway, Why does god let these things like the attacks on september 11th happen in the first place. Here are some of my beliefs and thoughts about God. Being naturally infinite, perfect, all-knowing, all-inclusive, thinking, creative, purposeful, life, ect. God exists through-out all of existance, in each and every molecule and within every person. Omnipresence puts god at the scene of every crime, birth, and bong-hit, every one, everytime! God has a plan for all of life, including human. These events must fall into the mystery of a divine plan far greater than our limited time here. The real question is: Does god determine our fate, or do we create our own realities? I choose and put my faith in the latter. God is within for people to find, and for God to find people as well. Gods within, benevolent aspect of self, and since we have "free-will" to plot our own course, even if we err, it is still perfect, god is still present and we can learn and grow from our mistakes, becoming more perfect ourselves. One can choose to have faith a divine plan for themselves and ponder a collective one as well. Its a choice. Who knows what great purposes the souls that passed did so for? Just as those who remain and survived, what unique purposes do they still serve here on earth? God does and those souls know now as well. How does tragedy fit in Gods plan? This one sure shook many people to the core of their beliefs, letting the best, and to the lessor, the worst out. The Pope visited more muslim nations in peace, and leaders from all general religions have met to discuss tolerance and understanding in the wake of the terrorist attacks. If the U.S. can pull off stabilzing Afganistan without starting a widespread conflict, many women will be free, more children will be fed, and less heroin will fill the worlds slums. So some of the further reaching consequences of 9-11 really show the potential of higher ideals manifest. Maybe God takes our lemons and make lemonade sometimes? I dunno.... because As much as I can consider my own ideals on the nature of divinity, what makes God, God is the mystery of something greater than me which is greatly unknown and perhaps largely unknowable to one inside a human shell. I have no faith in God though, In my view God doesnt need it. I believe I have faith to put in myself and others and for other purposes. Well there ya go! Some ideas. [This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 10-19-2001).] |
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My friend, you are right, God doesn't NEED your faith. He wants it though, and YOU need it. Faith is a gift. A wonderful deliverence. Sometimes it's hard to hold on to and even the ones who have been Christians for a long time need to pray from time to time for God's help in keeping it. Like I said, it is a gift and their is someone there to help you if only you ask. ------------------ http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member "I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!) |
It's funny how every day 5 billion people keep living yet people say, how come God lets people die. We never see the headlines "Incredible! Thousands of babies born today!"
Here's a concept. People are being created faster than they are dying! The earths human population is increasing. Why are we not blaming God for this? Oh yeah, because we humans have our receptors tuned to things of rarity. Diamonds are more valuable than a glass of water. There's so much more positivity in the world that the bad stuff is so rare it makes news, while the positive stuff is considered "everyday" and "mundane". We all have to die. No-one gets out alive. The issue here is that some humans prematurely ended the lives of others. It seems those deaths were not in vain, so it would seem there is purpose to those deaths. Learning and growth that others have recieved as a direct result. ------------------- On a totally different tack, I'd say God is only able to properly help those that allow Him to. If someone is open to His leading and wants protection, strength, guidance from Him, there is more chance that such will be given than if someone wants no interferance from God. Why would you help someone that wants you to butt out? I read the opinions of an ex-Hindu Guru who noted the oddity that India is the worlds largest believer in Karma and Dharma. He noted that according to their beliefs there must be a lot of bad Karma playing out in India as it is one of the poorest, most unhealthy nations on earth. Karmas rewards are in a large part earthly. Rewards are in life. Why would a nation of pure and holy Hindus be recieving the rough end of the stick, while other 'heathen' nations prosper? He could not rationalise this. He is also now a Christian. Why would a nation founded by Christian puritans and based on biblical principles, and trust in God be the most prosperous, enterprising, culturally advanced and technologically inventive nation on earth? Now, I realise this school of thought sits uncomfortably with many from other nations. The 'culturally advanced' notion in particular. However I am not alone in this observation, and one merely has to look at the film, literature, music fashion and art, (as well as other culturally reflective entertainments such as computer games) that has permeated throughout the globe to see proof. These notions initially sat uncomfortably with me. However fact is fact. Why fight an obvious truth? When one thinks of 'culture' one thinks of fine arts, elitism, high ponderings. This is not the limit nor true defintion of culture. The American culture is vibrant, energetic, expressive and oft times thought provoking, other times escapist. Making people feel happy is just as powerful as making them feel sad. Both are manipulating an emotional response. Anyhow I digress. The school of thought that God has actually rewarded this country is not one I necessarily hold to. However, when pursuing the "I blame God for not saving these lives" this other toss of the coin must be considered. Integrating ultimate consequences into a hypothesis must be attempted to ascertain the truth inherant in a particular hypothesis. You need to follow a 'what if' thought through to it's conclusions. -------------------- Finally the question is moot. A poster who asked this question also later admitted to not knowing why they felt compelled to perform certain actions. Do we really know ourselves? Our every motive? How can anyone speak for the motives of God? All we can do is speculate. If a given answer is insufficient to some, that's not surprising. However the answer that centres around free will satisfies me. I have asked the question. The question for me was asked during a period of rage against my God. A period when I felt unheard, let down, unanswered. A period when I had much hurt, sorrow and anger in my soul. God healed this. Gave me the said answer and took away the rage and the hurt, replacing it with love, amazement, joy and inner peace. Fuller than what I had known before. For my life, God 'allowed' my intense pains for two reasons. One - it's part of the ride and created awareness of many, many good things. Two - it brought me closer and closer to Him. For these, that is a price I am more than glad to have paid. ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif |
I suppose I must be somewhere in between G'kar's "no faith in God..." and Yorick and Liliara's view. I believe the Divine has his own agenda which includes me and all my fellow humans, but is allowing us to choose just how we wish to fit in to the plan.
We all have free will. While circumstances shape us, ultimately most of us find our own way through to growth and expression of faith. Whether this is in advocating a religious belief strongly or discounting faith altogether, it remains that all lives are touched in some manner through religion. God didn't 'allow' 911 to happen any more than he has 'allowed' any other atrocity. We as humans who seem bent on acquisition and overt dislike of those 'different' than ourselves choose a journey and when it leads to events such as 911, IMO, God weeps. But true to his plan, he allows us to trip, stumble, and harm ourselves and others, hoping that *someday* we'll learn. Think of a parent watching a baby grow--no matter how much you want to insulate your little one from any and all hurts and falls, you know it's best to teach all you can, then stand back and let him/her screw it all up til he/she learns. But that doesn't mean you aren't always there in the background ready with a warm hug and soothing hand wiping away the tears, always ready with encouraging words and even admonishments. And sometimes you might even have to administer a spanking or two, but not because you enjoy the pain you inflict. I think of God as the ultimate parent, not the the stern-eyed fire-and-brimstone-if-you-don't-believe guy I was brought up picturing (thru church). My 'parent' would never 'allow' harm come to me, certainly never advocate it. But he would give me the tools to avoid harm and then weep unconsolably when I failed so miserably to use them......... Then he'd wrap me in warm arms when I finally figured out how badly I f**d it all up and turned back for advice. Garnet |
I apologize if I have oversimplified things.....Sometimes I feel the need to in order to wrap the ol' brain around such an immense idea.
Garnet |
I wonder, with all the nasty things that man does to each other, in His name, if he doesn't shake His/Her head and say WHY?
God must want us to stand on our own and suffer the consequences, " It builds character!" With all the inhumane things humans do to each other, it's a wonder God doesn't have second thoughts about the Creation of our species! I would think if God can feel (you hope so!), S/He must feel bad for all of His/Her children, even the terrorists, for God is all about forgiveness. S/He most likely cannot bear the hatred from each side of this conflict. God would say, "Why can't you all just get along!" If you believe in God in classical sense, I wonder if there will come a time of cleansing like the Great Floods of Noah's time? If God does play a hand in human lives, I wonder how long before S/He does something drastic? Food for thought! Mark |
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As I said in another topic, I don't think God has a plan for everything that happens on earth. He knows what happens and what will happen but he doesn't interfere. The only intervention will be on the Judgment Day, when the old Earth will be terminated and a new one will be constructed.
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It' actually people and their decisions which affect the course of history, not God. HE just watches from above and knows what will happen and why.
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yorick
you imply that god rewards some and not others' ie: india and the west. hmmm, if we take this idea to its logical conclusion, the chritian west wouldn't help thirld world countries because they are simply getting what they deserve? does this also mean that people with incurable illnesses and the disabled are also getting what they deserve? i'm not entirely sure what your point is. perhaps you could ellucidate more clearly? ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/tracey5_10096.gif offended mistress of the illuminati |
There have been many Christians Radicals (no one here of course! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif) who believe that AIDS is punishment by God on gays and lesbians.
Mark |
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Christian organisations can and do help the third world. I have had a sponsor child with Christian Childrens fund for the last twelve years. ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif |
Yorick, once again, well said! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
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yorick, you stated or qouted the following:
'why would a nation founded on christian puritans and based on biblical principles and trust in god be the most prosperous, enterprising, culturally advanced and technologically inventive on earth.' (...........integrating ultimate consequence into a hypothesis must be attempted to ascertain the truth inherent in a particular hypothesis) the implication being, as you well know, that this particular nation to which you refer, is in some way blessed by a god. the further implication (note the word implication) being that nations who are less fortunate are not blessed by this god. i merely wish you eplain more fully the thoughts that bring you to this view and why, if you don't think it is so, you imply that it is with the statements that you make. ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/mi4/hclark50/tracey5_10096.gif offended mistress of the illuminati |
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For me to say that my family is blessed, based on our beliefs and actions is simply my faith. I know my family is blessed by God, but also know many other families around the world are also blessed. I don't try to determine who is "more" blessed. I'm satisfied with our blessings and am happy to tell the world about them. ------------------ http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif "The Martyr" (excerpt) There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand: Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. --Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln) [This message has been edited by Ronn_Bman (edited 10-20-2001).] |
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That question was the Hindu Guru's that cast doubt on his own views of Karmic rewards. I did say later in my post: Quote:
http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-20-2001).] |
Karma is merely a fancy word for cause and effect. Many religions world wide have a similar concept, though the exact and precise interpretations of the concept vary, even within an "individual" religion.
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http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/yor.gif http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif |
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Just wanted to address this quickly before conking out for the night, but this is a bit of oft repeated propaganda of the religious right in America that, historically, amounts to complete hogwash. The United States was founded by many people, of many different philosophies. The Puritans were only a small segment of the greater population that founded this country. At most, the Puritans can be said to have "founded" only the individual states of Massachusetts and Connecticut, as these were the areas which they settled and thereby created colonies. The other colonies, which became states, had very different origins. Virginia, for example, was created not by Puritans and not for religious purposes at all, but purely for reasons of economic gain by wealthy individuals who had the backing of the British throne. Virgina was founded for the purpose of large plantations to grow tobacco for export. All of the other colonies had similar secular origins, not for religious purposes at all. Hell, the puritan colonies of Massachusetts and Connecticut were not even the first to be settled -- Virginia was. And before Virginia at Jamestown in 1607 (Mass Bay Colony was not founded until later in 1620) the first English attempt to colonize the New World was at Roanoke in North Carolina in 1580, and that also was for purely secular purposes, to establish an English presence in the New World in an attempt to gain some of the riches that England's rivals like Spain had been reaping in Central and South America for years. As for the US being based on Biblical principles, that is another bit of religious right untrue propaganda. What is the creating document behind the US gov't? Plainly, it is the US constitution. The US constitution had little or nothing to do with "biblical principles." Instead, it represented the culmination of a branch of political philosophy which can be traced at least as far back as the works of such English philosophers as John Locke. The issues it addresses, namely the relations of the people to their government, the rights of the people against their government, and the structure of that government, has nothing to do with anything in the Bible. If I am wrong, please quote chapter and verse which address said issues. Furthermore, the men called affectionately today as "the Founding Fathers" were certainly NOT in any way shape or form "Puritans" or religious fundamentalists. The provisions which they put into the constitution regarding religious freedom actually flew in the face of what the Puritans who arrived on the Mayflower at Plymouth Rock would have liked. It is commonly recognized that those Puritans left England to practice their own religion. It is not so widely known, but equally true, that as soon as they got over to their new land they set about trying to force that same religion on any and everybody else. |
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and to continue the karma thought with relation to America...I think it is the general idealogy of a nation that determines its cause and effect, its string of consequences on its ride through history. America's progressive ideology highly suggests an atmoshpere of thought that would lead to the manifestastion of wealth, prosperity and creative culture although their is still plenty of poverty here as well. Some cultures (including some American) are tied by their ideology to a cycle that that doesn't promote the ideals of wealth, joyful living, and freedom. Like some Hindu ones, particularly those that include strong aestetic philophies. BTW Thanks for sharing your thoughts before Yorrick, Ive been bad http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/crap.gif and replied to a post at the end of a thread instaed of at the beginning, but the thinking on karma inspired me http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gifAnyway, I really enjoyed reading your response to my initial post. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif |
I'm so glad you are posting again Dio. I for one have missed your POV!
Mark |
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[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 10-20-2001).] |
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------------------ Crustiest of the OLD COOTS Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
Back to the original post while I believe that God does have a plan, and He is always on His throne, I'm not sure what His plan is in detail, since no nails pierced my hands or feet and no Crown of throne was placed on my head. I have some ideas, but the exact reasons are way above my pay scale.
------------------ Crustiest of the OLD COOTS Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
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Crown of Thorns is what he meant to write. He's referring to the head dress made from twigs with thorns on them that was placed on the head of Jesus during the crucifixion. ------------------ http://www.usflag.org/animate/flagwave1.gif "The Martyr" (excerpt) There is sobbing of the strong, And a pall upon the land; But the People in their weeping Bare the iron hand: Beware the People weeping When they bare the iron hand. --Herman Melville (written after the assasination of President Abraham Lincoln) http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/rb.gif |
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------------------ Crustiest of the OLD COOTS Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
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