Not sure if this should be in here or in GD, but I found the following in a magazine dated Nov 8th 2001. The newspaper the info is taken from is not dated, but I know from experience with this mag that it will have been during the last 6-12 months:

"Trade in tools of torture is on the rise," says an article in the German newspaper Sudwest Presse. According to .. Amnesty International, 150 companies around the world have allegedly joined this gruesome trade, including 30 in Germany and 97 in the United States. Their wares include .. leg irons and serrated thumb cuffs .. high voltage electroshock devices .. remotely controlled belts that send up to 50,000 volt electric shocks through the victims body. Such high-tech tools are preferred by torturers, since they hardly leave any traces on their victims.

.......

I think this is appalling! Do you think, as I do, that the manufacture of such devices should be banned by law? At present, our goverments ALLOW it, for pete's sake! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../angryfire.gif

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.



[This message has been edited by Fljotsdale (edited 10-11-2001).]

Appalling yes. Sick, yes. Need to banned, yes. Unfortunately, if such were banned, the 'trade' would go underground and the allure would be increased. That which is 'forbidden' is always made more attractive by the hint of the illicit.

Unfortunately, it doesn't surprise me at all. This sort of business has been around since man first built cities and discovered new realms of power. For every good, decent person, there seems to be another bent on twisting goodness awry.

Garnet

Yes, I do most strongly believe that they should be banned. If you go to an arms fair, you can see them laid out and choose which will do the job most efficiently. We had an arms fair in the Docklands around the time of the Sept 11th bombing, just afterwards, if I remember rightly. It went ahead as planned, amidst much protest by many more enlightened human beings, who do not believe that the torture of their fellow human beings is the way forward.

I believe the sale of such instruments should be banned globally. Companies selling them should be prosecuted and their assets disposed of to the public good upon proof positive being supplied of traffic. We supply these foul goods to regimes all over the world, - it is disgusting, appalling, nauseating madness.

The fact that WE, in the democratic West make fortunes out of torture instrument sales (not to mention the billions spent on arms and related) makes a mockery of our claims of being a 'superior society (as Berlusconi recently claimed and as so many on this board are claiming every day.) Wipe out this EVIL trade, I say!! We are less than human until we do.



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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

I understand your point completely (witness prohibition in America, drug laws everywhere and so on... ) however, in this case I disagree. Ban it, I say, and enforce the ban under the rule of law. Send the message! Stop people from legitimately profiting. Why should they worry? What they are doing is legal. The message from society is: yes, this is fine for you to do, go right ahead. It needs to stop. A laisser faire attitude on this one wont get us anywhere! or so I believe.

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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

The shock belts need to go definately. Even though they are legitimately used to control very dangerous criminals being moved. The risk for abuse is too great. I'm sure these devices are very popular with those who enjoy torture also. Regular stun guns and cattle prods are the biggest problem. Unfortunately, these items also have legitimate uses. Although I believe the voltages could be toned down a bit on the cattle prods. Stun guns(batons), when used properly, are a very effective non-lethal weapon for use in riot control or unarmed criminal subduing. It's because of this that their risk for abuse is so high. I'm not sure if banning them would actually reduce foreign tormentors or not. It may just alter their method. If forced to choose, I would rather be shocked than beaten by a billy club. I've been shocked by a 50,000 V stun gun for five seconds. It was a test a freind and I conducted while I was a teen and bought one. They do sting quite a bit and produce a cramping sensation after a couple of seconds. The pain dissipates shortly after the shock stops. Exports probably do need some sort of control. I'm just not sure what would do the trick. ANYTHING can become a torture implement if someone is sickly determined to do it.

Yes, true. Even matchsticks.
But these things are being made SPECIFICALLY for the purpose of torture, and the manufacturers are profiting from the deliberate infliction of torture on others. Its immoral. Its disgusting.
What if American citizens in other countries are subjected to torture by instruments deliberately made for the job by American manufactures? Or Britons by torture instruments made in Britain? We'd shout loud enough if we found that happening, wouldn't we? And you can bet it HAS happened only we don't know about it!
Making instruments of torture is sick. That manufacturers can make them LEGALLY is an indictment of EACH OF US AS CITIZENS, because we are letting our governments get away with it. We should be out there shouting!


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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

dude... what the heck, I can use that tortue device... I seriously do...

I'm just worried that in completely banning non-lethal methods, we inadvertently raise the use of potentially lethal methods. I thought stun batons were made primarily for riot control and such?




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Member of ORT
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

I'm sorry 250. I don't understand your meaning here.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what's happening. Are law enforcement tools being exported and falling into the tormentors hands, or have companies sprung up that manufacture and sell items outside of these pretenses that are actually designed to be used in torturing? I mean, handcuffs and stun batons were not originally designed for this purpose.

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Member of ORT
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

I can use it to tortue someone... yeah, as painful as possible...

Do you mean Bin Laden maybe?

If not, there's probably better forums to discuss S&M on you know. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/485.gif

I am going to bring a twist into this story. I obviously haven't read the article that Fljotsdale is referring to, but could it be a reference to...uh um...sexual based torture?!? This is a not so uncommon 'fetish' and does use many of the devices mentioned. Perhaps I am way off the mark here, but I think that this is the more legitamate meaning and use of these 'torture' products being made. I don't think they are actually used for 'true torture' like in years past. Things like smashing knee-caps, pulling out finger nails, etc. There are many sickos out there that are into 'pain', being cut, beaten, burned, etc. And given the fact that this is a German article I would be inclined to think that this is sexual torture, not actual torture, as Germany I believe is the 2nd largest producer and consumer of porn in the world.

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Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig
I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time
Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas!

bin Laden is actually second on my list.
for the first... I will kill him slowly, and have him screaming so loud that he can be heard from moon, every day for the whole lenght of a month... then maybe, if I am satisfied, I will finish his life mercifully

250, shut up. This is a SERIOUS war, not something where NATO just go in and tell them to surrender their weopons. People are dieing in Afganistan. They may be Afgans, but they're still people!

you shut up, I am ■■■■■■■ pissed off today. so get off my face

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World against terrorism!!!

To this world, she is one person, but to me, she is the world.

If you abuse your child, I WILL ■■■■■■■ kill you.

Horatio, please don't tell me to shut up too. I think that 250 (Two Fitty) is referring to someone else and he/she is doing her best to show a sense of humor about the situation. I respect that. We all acknowledge that the war is serious, its just the thread that isn't.



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"I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant."
-Robert McCloskey

http://www.home.earthlink.net/~hiram...mages/cute.jpg

Your pissed off? I had 6 friends in that building, three Muslims, two Brits and 1 American! They're all dead, but I'm not going around making sick comments on ways of torturing people horribly!

me? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif I am a he, by the way

but I wasn't joking, I really meant to kill that person that way... horrorable huh? I bet I can say that when I see his face

thanks, H. Sedai, by the way!

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World against terrorism!!!

To this world, she is one person, but to me, she is the world.

If you abuse your child, I WILL ■■■■■■■ kill you.

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-11-2001).]

OK, I give up. I do hope you're not referring to me http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/tdo9.gif. You do realize that if you are I will have to express my displeasure. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

ohh, damn... sorry to hear that.

but this is not a thread about war

I made that comments, and I meant it. It wasn't a joke, so you need to understand that.

once again, I am sorry for the loss. nothing I say can make you feel better, but I am sorry for it anyway

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World against terrorism!!!

To this world, she is one person, but to me, she is the world.

If you abuse your child, I WILL ■■■■■■■ kill you.

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-11-2001).]

Yeah...Wwoteverr

Fljotsdale: Nov 8th, 2002???? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/eek2.gif

(must be a misprint?)

Anyway, whenever it was published, I agree fully...this is abominable. Unfortunately, we still live in a world where slavery and torture are still the norm in certain areas, where people in various countries (US included) are allowed to make "snuff" flicks, and where innocents may be raped and tortured at whim. It is repugnant, and an insult to the true spirit of Humanity.

On another note: Guys, enough with the personal insults back and forth. 250, lighten up on the "dark humor". I know you may feel like killing someone today, but this isn't the time nor the place to express that. And Horatio, no matter how angry we may be at someone, we don't say "shut up" to them. Attack the sentiment, not the person. FWIW, I'm sorry for your loss. That must really hurt, losing friends in such a horrible manner. One forgets, all too often, the personal side.

Moridin: I hope you are right, and that the devices are for *ahem* gratification purposes *cough* although that is also a subject, IMO, too sick to even begin to mention. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/uhoh2.gif


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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/saz.gif

[This message has been edited by Sazerac (edited 10-11-2001).]

you are just so F-------- right on this one...

ok, not a place to express my anger... I will not... but I still feel like to kill http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no.../angryfire.gif

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World against terrorism!!!

To this world, she is one person, but to me, she is the world.

If you abuse your child, I WILL ■■■■■■■ kill you.

The element you mention may be relevant, however, there is a thriving and profitable trade in instruments of torture which are used by governments and groups to torture, maim and kill. In the past few years, the number of companies supplying such intruments has jumped from 30 to 200. Not that many, just 200 too many. It's a big percentage climb.

Many regimes use torture, - I believe our own intelligence services have been known to do so also. Here is a link to Amnesty International's report on the subject for anyone who is interested in finding out what goes on. If you want to help stop this sick trade, then get in touch with Amnesty to find out what you can do.

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/...1?OpenDocument

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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 10-11-2001).]

http://web.amnesty.org/ai.nsf/index/...1?OpenDocument


Ummmm. Whoa! The belts and leg irons definately have to go. Serrated cuffs are cruel and need to go too.

250,000 Volts!!!!!!! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/wow.gif
I didn't know they could make them like that! That's too much!

I know pepper spray and CS can be very dangerous and potentially deadly to those with conditions like athsma or allergies.


-Stop the exporting of all these things.
-Limit shock items voltage.
-Limit shock items to law enforcement.
-Make them with a single use batt. so that they are cost prohibitive to use indiscriminately.
-Make the items so that discharges are recorded and require a report to be filled out and filed for each use. A complete report would be required for recharging the device with a new batt. This same concept could be used with sprays and gas cannisters.

I still argue that the biggest problem is with the people themselves. The cold and callous behavior of some of the people hired as law enforcement officials or prison guards is awful sometimes.



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Member of ORT
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

[This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 10-11-2001).]

These measures would be excellent steps in the right direction!


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Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati

Read the first post in the thread.

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Oops! Forgot to tell you I am into time travel...... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/FRblush.gif

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

Don't forget though. Cuffs and stun guns are easily replaced with their predecessors, rope and jumper cables. People in an opressive government system are the true problem. I remember reading stories about Bang Kwang prison in thailand. True horror stories and all they needed were billy clubs, boots and other everyday items. The shocking would have been preferable in my opinion.