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Though i cant say i agree with people using an RPG board to spout off about terrorism, ive finally buckled & decided to have my 2 cents worth as well, so here it is:
Its a fact of life, that if your a bully at school, and you go around bossing people, telling them how to live, and beating up those who disagree with you (your just protecting your 'freedom' to be obnoxious to others right?) then sooner or later some of the kids you've picked on are going to join together & have a go at you, even if its only to prove they dont like being pushed around. Of course, if your by far the biggest, toughest kid in the school then everything that you do is 'right' and 'good' and 'the only way' since no-one can beat the crap out of you (usually all that kind of kid understands) to prove otherwise. an IMPORTANT thing to realise is that sooner or later a new kid will come along who's tougher, and will knock you off the top of the hill. Watchout when that happens, because everyone who you've bullied while you were no.1 is going to take advantage & get theirs back on you, and some people have very long memories. Even the "Holy" Roman Empire crumbled into nothing after 1000 years of glory. No 'bully' ever stays at the top forever, no matter how much self-reighous rubbish he spouts to his followers in trying to keep his gang together. Most bullies (in my experience) never learn this lesson, and continue to victimise, lecture, or provoke whomever they please right up until they are brought back to earth with a broken nose. Then all of a sudden they find themselves being unpopular, and wonder why are other people cheering my suffering? Ive never, ever, hurt anyone else before.........have I? THANKFULLY the world is too big a playground for just one bully (im sure lots of dictators in third world countries would love the job though). On a different topic, ive noticed that a recent terrorist attack on some American buildings has been blamed (not PROVEN yet, just blamed) on a group of Muslims from Afghanistan. Ive also noticed that most Muslims hate the idea of Jews currently occupying Jerusalem, and its also a fact that America gives Israel 100 BILLION dollars a year in 'foreign aid' (you have to love terms like that one) as well as supplying the Jews with the vast majority of their weapons, despite publically remaining "neutral" on the issue. As with most dilemmas, the easiest solution may be to find a scapegoat as quick as possible (who should be publically burned at the stake just like in the good ol' middle ages) , completely ignore all of the issues and moral ramifications involved, and hope that life will go on as usual, because after all- the 'good guys' got their man, or a least someone to blame for everything. Often those who refuse to look inside themselves would prefer to live in fear of what they might find, rather than face the struggle of conquering their own inadequecies. |
Do you live in america?
------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas Messenger of the Emerald Dragon May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity. A guitar solo is to a guitarsist is what a palette is too a painter. "...But I look at my self as a fragile, inteligent,human being. But there is a clown inside that comes and messes it up everytime" -Jim Morrison GO DEVILS!!!! |
man... cannot people put their idea in first sentence when disucss them?
lol, welcome http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif |
Is this the same bully that gives MORE AID (FOOD & MEDICAL SUPPIES) then any other country in the world?
How many Arab countries are flying US made Fighters? It seems to me that there was a little country in the Persian gulf area that was conquered by it's Arab neighbor in 1990, is that country still under the control of the invading neighbor? ------------------ Crustiest of the OLD COOTS Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
Grand-Ranger: No, i dont live in america.
250: True, though i wasnt aware i was limited to one idea per post http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif John D Harris: Congrats on a wonderfull example of missing the point entirely, though i didnt know america gives more foreign aid than any other country. Yes i agree with you there, thank god those kuwaiti oil wells are still pumping, it would have saddened all our hearts immesurably had they been forced to become slaves of those 'communist oppressors' or whatever the iraqis was supposed to be at the time. |
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------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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And you STILL have the gall to judge us. Good,I am so glad you dont live in America. ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas Messenger of the Emerald Dragon May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity. A guitar solo is to a guitarsist is what a palette is too a painter. "...But I look at my self as a fragile, inteligent,human being. But there is a clown inside that comes and messes it up everytime" -Jim Morrison GO DEVILS!!!! |
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well see, the reason why you think he missed your point is because you missed his point: USA, good! so it is tolerable for USA to do bad John D Harris, am I right? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif |
You know what above the Rim. I don't think your fingers on the pulse. I'm suspicious that you haven't listed your location, and that your facts are wrong. Any "evil" that America has done is deserving of criticism. Hatred even. Nothing anywhere justifies the attack on the world trade centre however. Any argument you make is nullified by equating Americas actions with responsibility for the attack. These terrorists decided it on their own volition. Decided and chose what their course of action would be. The responsibility rests solely upon their shoulders and theirs alone. Instead of furthering their anti-American agenda, they have seriously set it back.
I suggest you get some more facts about the situation before posting mate. Welcome to the board though. Oh, and I'm Australian, not American. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! [This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 10-09-2001).] |
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------------------ Crustiest of the OLD COOTS Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
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------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/Azurewolf%20copy.jpg "I was born of darkness. My fathers eyes closed before mine opened. I am not of this world or the other, and I have the right to be what I am..." Overlord of all that I behold and anything that i happen to not notice either. Founding Hamlet of the HADB. |
O-H M-Y G-O-S-H!!!!
Someone please hold me back!!!!!!! (Don't want to get banned yet! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif Just became Drizzt!) ------------------ http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels) |
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I dont mind people who dis like America, for whatever reason, they can say stuff about it all they want. But no, I simply cannot take it when there is a post like that. As Yorrick said...get some facts first ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas Messenger of the Emerald Dragon May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity. A guitar solo is to a guitarsist is what a palette is too a painter. "...But I look at my self as a fragile, inteligent,human being. But there is a clown inside that comes and messes it up everytime" -Jim Morrison GO DEVILS!!!! |
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Do you agree that your fellow Australians are on our side of this Strike against Terrorism? PS: You don't personally believe that the Taliban and Bin Laden were the ones responsable for the attacks? There IS proof, they have shown it to many leaders, it's just very classifyed data.. there may be spies in the Taliban and reported that they said they did it.. PLUS, those hikackers that did this--many of them have been linked to Bin Laden. ------------------ Ziroc™ Ironworks Webmaster www.tgeweb.com/ironworks |
Ziroc, are you saying he's an Aussie?
By the way Ziroc, will i be banned if I unleash on this guy? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/tdo9.gif ------------------ http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels) |
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------------------ Ziroc™ Ironworks Webmaster www.tgeweb.com/ironworks |
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You know, along the lines of "my goodness man, when will your orders come accross to make your attack?" That would probably take it too far though, no? Hmmm... maybe I should keep my opinions silent. Never mind then! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ------------------ http://members.aol.com/amandaisflirt...s/tradesig.jpg Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar LH Member And you never did think that it ever would happen again, in America did you? And you never did think that we'd ever get together again, but we damn sure fooled ya. We're walkin' real proud and we're talkin' real loud again, in America. And you never did think that it ever would happen again.... (Charlie Daniels) |
The USA is NOT perfect but neither are we the SOLE blame for the worlds ills. Yes I love my country but I am not blinded to it's faults. In my life time most of it's mistakes were due to bad judgement NOT malice or evil intent.
Afghanistan is a perfect example after helping the Afghans defeat the USSR we backed off and let them have their own country. In hindsight that was a bad judgement call not evil malice. In 1979 we had 52 people take'n hostage in a fundlementalist Islamic nation (Iran) and did not want to be medling in Afghanistan's govt. We learned a lesson. If usama wants to be pissed at us for being in Saudi Arabia He first better get pissed at the Saudi's. All of the air force bases built in the dessert were built in the early 80's with the blessings of the Saudi Royal Family. For the purpose of the USA coming in and helping defend Saudi Arabia, incase they were needed, low and behold SodamInsane and his boys do their tap-dance through Kuwait. We didn't kill the puke because of the Arab nations in the coalition. ------------------ Crustiest of the OLD COOTS Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
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what I respect you the most is your strong faith in your own believes, and a logical reasoning that seem to pop between the words |
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However, AboveTheRimYo is quite correct in his essential point that the historical reality behind the hatred which motivated the attacks cannot be ignored. Unfortunately, America has done great injustice and evil in the world, and provoked viscious hatred of the sort which would motivate men to perform such terrorist acts. It would be foolish to deny this truth. It must be faced openly and honestly, or we will only doom ourselves to more such hatred and such incidents in the future. |
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I am just kidding... what a horrorable comment I really meant: so what? now it is time for action, stop the dogs first, and talk about who is to be blamed later! |
IMHO Amerika is not a Big Bully
BUT they do have the tendincy to think of themslefs as the greater good and the perfect state While in no country has such a big difference between rich and porr as the US (this is mainly cause the insanely rich people living there) Also the US is one of the most violent countries in the Western World Also There was evidence Dear Bin Laden supported the attacks But if there was evidence how come the arab countries aren't impressed? Howcome YOU were not willing to give it to the Taliban to have a change to a peaceful Solution, it might seem Idyl, but if the change exist try it And Why were WE our Goverment except Kok not allowed to see the evidence? ------------------ Behold he who stands before you http://www.phpshop.net/images/rikard/rikard2.gif Almighty (shared) Leader of the OHF Proud member of the Ancients Club The one True Necromancer/Blade of the Laughing Hyena's Last of the Ancient race known as the Red Fluffies Summoner of Bunnies Official Register of the Top Posters; "You can Run, You can Hide, But you can never do both" http://potgrond.netfirms.com/Eyes.jpg I'm Watching you... Spam Sentinal too... OMG i have to control Cloudy... |
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bottom line: A country that being not perfect is hardly a reason to be accused you proposed we change Afhag country into a peaceful nation, you must know that this cannot be acheived when the very foundation of their government structure is based on terrorism. their government is NOT ran by a group who represent afhag PEOPLE. their government only represents the benefits of small portion of Muslim. how can we negaotiate with these kinda people for the greater population? mind you, we have ALREADY given the chance for peace by holding off the attack. if we wait any longer, it would be unconditionally compromising. it is a choice of irresponsible, because the longer we wait, the more lives are at stack. when you play something as big as thousands, or maybe millions of people's lives, the choice is always a hard one. but you got to have the guts to do it. and in this case, it is only right AND works to take actions before bin Laden does something crazy. bottom line: terrorism must be removed. and Taliban too, if they continuely harboring it [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-09-2001).] |
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Dio, anti-americanism is an ideology. I recently read an article in the New York times, that was reprinted from the London times about this modern phenomena. The criticisms leveled at America are not altogether fair, and often not presented with the balance of positive action and motivation. Take Somalia. The US went in for a noble cause. Osama and his ilk saw it as another invasion of an Islamic nation. There is no justification in his Wahabist eyes for American troops on Saudi soil - even if Saudi Arabia were to fall! Anti-Americanism is actually quite prevalent within America itself, the article points out. The "elites" on the coast deride the midwesters and southerners, who in turn claim moral decay in coasters. But it's further than that I think. The Amsterdam News is one of the most racist pieces of writing I've ever read. Such material would be banned in Australia, yet it is published and sold as the voice of Black America. I am at this moment in the apartment of a very good Af Am friend of mine in the Bronx, and am of the opinion that African Americans have shown incredible grace in the situation, but Press like the Am Nws only furthers division, prejudice and ignorance. There are deep social divisions too. Money seperates many. These anti-american ideas are taken to the world through film, television, comedy, and music. Obviously the internet is a recent addition. These ideas take root in the minds of other cultures. Cultures that happily drink Coca Cola, wear American clothing fashion, listen to American music, and live as a result of American positive actions as much as negative. There is the quote from a British? Prime minister that America, usually picks the right course of action, after attempting all the wrong ones. Or words to that effect. The Church is an unifying equaliser here though. A leveler, a melting pot of races, classes and backgrounds. Thus I have Pakistani, South African, Dominican, African American, Anglo-American, Australian, Argentinian, English, Chinese, Arabic, and Jewish Christian friends from within the one church here. Basically I'm stating that the accusations are a bit harsh, and not balanced. That unity and focus on that which unites rather than divides is important, and that honest self appraisal needs the balance of praise as much as criticism if it is to be heard, absorbed and acted upon. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mirac/.../BlackLich.gif http://www.angelfire.com/rpg2/mirac I'd be Mirac, mighty mage of er... uhm.. er.. - Mirac Honorguard Fellow Table Dancer of the Jerome's Table dancer group Spell formulater of the IW peace-keeping force Magical advisor of MiLady Lioness [This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 10-10-2001).] |
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In agreeing, I am not being anti-American - indeed I like many US citizens that I meet - but I do have strong disagreements with the way the US government attempts to be 'world policeman' - they create more trouble than they solve, and it is no wonder that this breeds resentment. I of course include the ever-loyal companion, the British government, in my criticism. ------------------ http://www.gldb.com/wayno/e1.jpg Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so. Epona of The Laughing Hyenas Proud winner of the 'Most Useless Post 250 Has Ever Seen' Award 2001. "I'd just like to thank my friends and family, without whom none of this would have been possible..." |
i dont know much about facts and details but methinks that there is still imperialism happening all over the world now...
------------------ Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath... |
Gosh! Firstly ill admit that im daunted by the prospect of facing all of these critisisms & challenges thrown at me, though any comments on what ive written are welcome of course. If i happen to miss replying to anyone btw, apologies- perhaps in my next post.
Firstly- yes, i am an Australian & quite proud of it too. Before i answer specific questions however, i should perhaps outline my 'point' a little better than earlier since im dreadfully concerned that many of you may otherwise be left to rely on your powers or reasoning and deduction. After first hearing of said terrorist incidents happening, i was immediately struck with the thought: "what has caused this to happen?", since concentrated - and likely planned - destruction on such a scale is rare in anything but war. The nature of the events too (suicide actions) was also rather "drastic" whats more, lending me to believe that perhaps those responsible were looking to draw attention to themselves or their cause as much as causing wanton destruction. I can honestly say that American attempts ive seen thus far to examine the all important question of "why did this happen?" (as opposed to all but useless "how do we get payback?") have been extremely superficial at best. For America to avoid repeated attacks of this nature, i would have thought it obvious to IMMEDIATELY begin examining every possible reason why any country could provoke such malice - and indeed such dedicated and carefully planned malice. Perhaps the US government has never considered its constant, and very often UNWELCOME and UNASKED FOR involvement in the affairs of other countries being a problem? Since naivety is something Americans are so famous for, its to be expected that their government may see itself as having a free reign to dominate whomever it wants, however it wants, with little expectation of ever facing the consequences. A pity that innocent Americans have been forced to pay the price, though the upcoming war is a wonderful example of the military tactic "creating a diversion", and from my perspective at least - very little is likely to change in American attitudes and international politics and as a result. Given this situation, i would without doubt expect many more terrorist incidents of similar kind in the future, with those posessing the least influence on the real issues naturally being affected the most. Now on to my replies: Yorick - Actually my history is a little rough, i believe i was using the roman empire as an example that all political boundaries & such are subject to change given enough time, or something like that. Actually i dont think the Roman empire was very "holy" either, with all of that throwing the christians to the lions & gladitorial spectacles etc. Strange similarities with televised lethal injections however... Grand-Ranger - Actually im not judging you or anyone else, simply voicing my opinion. Yorick - I dont believe i ever claimed that Americans were ever "responsible" for the attack, though perhaps i inferred that something of this nature was to be expected eventually. Interesting interpretation you have, though i wont give up hope on you since at least your an Aussie. AzureWolf - Well said. Ziroc - Yes, Australians are helping the US at the moment with these airstrikes (and no, it isnt a US payback campaign of terror since the US are having a war on terror and thus could hardly use it for their purposes could they?). Frankly i am completely against this, though our prime minster seems intent (as ever) upon bowing to the whim of every US president regardless of the Australian lives put in danger over something which has nothing to do with us whatsoever. As for Bin Laden, there is certainly much circumstancial evidence which when combined with the American desperation to find a scapegoat as quickly as possible SEEMS like proof i am sure. Dont get me wrong, the man in question seems to be involved in someway, though my guess is that it will take months if not years for the real truth behind the event to be revealed to public eyes. At least after the next US election anyway. Diogenes - Im glad that i seem to have at least one supporter in the room, and whats more i think your response probably clarified my thoughts into a much neater block of letters that im sure i would be capable of. Its refreshing to see that there are some Americans out there who havent been 'taken in' by much of the bush propaganda & such since the event itself, and have begun to examine the ramifications for the future, rather than cower in fear of them. 250 - "there side of the future.." that is an EVIL sentance that is just perfect as a mantra for my next BG2 ToB character (Sarevok's brother fittingly). Im chuckling. Rikard - Very true point about the "evidence" in question. Many Americans have forgotten about the Iran Contra it seems.... 250 - I agree that WORLDWIDE terrorism must be removed, though i question the lack of intelligence which suggests that America actually has the power to effect this. Such a 'gun-ho' American attitudes in the past have cost the lives of MILLIONS of men from other countries, with Vietnam being the ideal example. Epona - Thankyou for bringing up the term "world policeman", very relavent i think. Harkoliar - I hadnt looked at it in exactly that context before, but it really is a excellent point. Hope this helps everyone, look forward to reading future posts. |
Perhaps you would have received less vehement responses if your own opening post had not been so full of sarcasm. Seems almost trollish in its apparent intention to draw flames. But I digress.
I will say (in reference to your response to Diogenes) that I don't appreciate the overall view that Americans are apparently weak-minded sheep who follow their leaders without question. I know you didn't come right out and say that, but that is how you come across when you talk about 'Bush propaganda'. May I ask who made you an expert on propaganda to know just what is and what isn't propaganda in this situation? And even in your replies to people, you are still highly sarcastic and twist words. I agree that America's government has made some very poor decisions on our behalf. Unfortunately, you have to take some bad with the good. And I am VERY aware of our actions in other countries (particularly the Middle East) that have led up to the actions the terrorists took. HOWEVER, as Yorick (I believe) said - that doesn't excuse or explain away the lives that they took. |
I am very curious as to what all of these "great evils" that certain people say America has commited are ...... the only thing that comes to my mind is the Israel situation .... but I don't look at that as much as an evil as it is a misunderstanding, what is so evil about giving people the land that once belonged to them in the first place, it may not be completely right, and possibly a little hipocritical ( native americans ... 'nuf said ) anyways I don't want to get into a debate about that particular situation. All I am saying is that If you are going to accuse the country I love of these great evils at least have the courtesy to let me know what they are ... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ..... and I really don't think that there is anything at all wrong about a campain against terrorism, it almost sounds to me like you are condoning what they did, and if that is the case then you make me sick ..... if not then I am very sorry for the misunderstanding and forgive me for my previous remarks http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif
------------------ http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/DRUIDD.gif You can only call someone something so many times before they become that which you did not wish them to be! Bad things happen to bad people! |
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ohh wait... I see, they've done that for quite some years... so what do you suggest we do about it? don't give a damn! |
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------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati |
AboveTheRimYo
Americans don't take criticism very well (if you didn't notice yet)! Mark |
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This 'how dare you have the gall to judge us' attitude is part of what's got America into this situation in the first place. ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati |
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If people believe they have a grievance THAT HARD and that much, aren't you even interested to find out what it is? ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Most Ecstatic and Exotic Mistress of the Illuminati |
I'm just confused as to how America can justify it's postion in the name of justice, while inncent ppl are dyoing while I type this, not to mention the fact that if they actually recover Bin laden they could *never* actually give him a fair trial...
[This message has been edited by Ziroc (edited 10-10-2001).] |
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you do your spiritual research, and we do our man reseach at afhag, fair? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/biglaugh.gif |
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these kind arguement can be easily termed as human shortsightness... but I am not going to do that here, because all your sympathies are applausible... but my sympathy is greater, because I care for larger population, BUAHAHAHAHAHA http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...l_laughter.gif [This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-09-2001).] |
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