This is just really sad...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4370617.stm

I will predict now, that the teenage shooter was or just got off of either Prozac or another drug.

In 99.9% of all cases in these shootings at school, or in workplace shootings, the killer/murderer is or was on a Prozac, Zoloft and the like.

Such a tragedy.. yet another 'head shaker' :(

I read on Swedish text tv that he first shot his grandparents, and then went to school. :(

I just read on BBC that some of his fellow pupils had teased him for always dressing in black. If that was the only reason then this is a really tragic event.

And it seems he killed his grandparents, a school security guard, a teacher and seven other students. He then exchanged fire with the FBI and then killed himself.

Seems like Bowling for Columbine did not accomplish what it tried to accomplish.

Bowling for Red Lake?

It's been over 6 years since the last time a HS kid went nvts at school with a gun. In a country of 300 million or so people, it's a wonder this doesn't happen more often. Given a big enough statistical pool, such weirdness is bound to happen -- especially when you factor in the volatility of a teenager's emotions.

Europe has 750 million people, yet we haven't had anything like this since I'm following the news (9-10 years).

That's because you have soccer games for a healthy violent outlet. Venting off that much physical abuse on a regular basis helps you remain much more sensible, I think.

Besides, when young men decide they want to violently rebel over there, there are a lot of terrorist groups for them to join. Why go to school alone to cause trouble when you can go to Russia or Ireland and join a whole group of men and take over a whole school? You got your problems too, it seems.

[ 03-22-2005, 12:07 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

There is a substantial difference between a chechen terrorist group taking over a school with demands to the russian government and an american kid going to his school and shooting seven people (+2 counting the grandparents before it).

There are psycho cases, I agree, but since Columbine and even before it several times one or several kids just go into their schools and start shooting people.

Bowling for Columbine ties this together with the ease to obtain firearms in the US, but I do not want to go into a need for regulating them or not, as that topic usually gets locked after a certain time here on IW. I'll just say that the only person I know, who has a gun is my uncle, who goes hunting for deer and boar on his weekends. Other than that I have never had any of my friends or people, whom I know say that they or someone they knew had guns.

About the ease to join terrorist groups in Europe...the largest terrorist attacks carried out in Europe (Madrid train bombings) and Lockerby were done by non-european groups. Other terrorist activities in Europe might include a bomb against a church (again a topic which generates a lot of heat on IW) or ETA bombings.

The largest European terrorist groups are ETA and the different factions of the IRA (and the chechens if you consider them still Europe). ETA fight for basque independence and shall continue to fight for it. Now someone, who is young and feels angry at a situation, I'm not sure his first thought shall be to enter ETA in Spain, as he/she doesn't necessarily believe in basque independence. IRA is now mostly out of action and it even seems that they are willing to go after their members, who endanger the peace process. (after the McCartney murder they offered the family to kill the murderer, but the family did not want it).

Of course Europe has its problems and of course a european kid could theoretically acquire a dozen firearms and go rampage in a school, but for some reason it hasn't happened recently, while in the US it happened on several occasions.

There has to be a reason for that, and I don't think that football matches would explain it. Only a fraction of the population go to watch the matches and of those who go only a fraction are there not for the match, but to cause mayhem.

Nice post dplax.

Schoolboys and terrorists are indeed not the same kettle of fish...

The IRA has largely moved into organised crime since about 1999 - once they couldn't make money from protection they diversified. Belfast used to be pretty drug-free, now its overrun with the stuff :( It also has to be said that loyalist paramilitary organisations are also involved in equally dubious enterprises but the spotlight is of course currently on the IRA.

Anyway, my heart goes out to the families of the dead and the boys own family - imagine how his Grandfather is feeling for example.

As for the whole gun control debate, so as not to sidetrack the thread I shall limit myself to two sentences.

A common argument against a gun ban:

1) If guns are made illegal, criminals can still easily get guns.

Fair enough, but:

2) If guns are readily available in the house non-criminals can also easily get guns.

The course of action does seem rather obvious... ;)


Edit: Looks like the two people killed earlier were his grandfather and his partner

[ 03-22-2005, 12:39 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Whatever. Not worth it to get into it. It always comes down to a gun debate, which inevitably leaves me itching to shoot somebody. A feeling that is unwelcome since I don't own a gun and can't go to the range and cap off a few hundred rounds to sate my urge.

My point was simply that there are types of violence we experience here that you don't experience there and vice versa. When I hear about Chechen rebels taking a school or about Muslim thug gangs in France, I'm not on here talking about how screwed up Europe is and how its failings produce such a social problem.

But, I see a story about a US school shooting and I just come waiting for the across-the-ponders to start posting about how screwed up the US is.

Such is life.

[ 03-22-2005, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

<font color=skyblue>Pro-Nazi beliefs may have led to the shootings, confirmed by postings on a website from his PC. </font>

Well, at least they didn't wring their hands or cowtow to anyone. If you're gonna be an ass, do it loudly and proudly I often say...

loudly and proudly, of course. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

Methinks he doesn't have a very good understanding of Hitler or his beliefs: I doubt he would have had much patience with Native American's...

That's very true, i've been stockpiling a lot of anger lately, time to head to the stadium once again. :D

I can recall atleast two:

In 2002 a 19 year old gunman killed sixteen students in Erfurt Germany.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1952869.stm

Also in 2002 a 17 year old gunman killed a teacher and wounded a second in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1958400.stm

Thanks for the clarification Seraph. I was not aware of those two events.

Those aren't Hitler's kind of nazis from what I gather. Neo-nazis that accept all races yet agree that all those races should be kept seperate.

Regardless, this kid's mingling with this group is more of sign of an identity struggle- probably associated with self-esteem and socializing issues rather than pure Hitler-nazi racial hatred.

Anyway, no explainifications of the killer's mindset can or will rationalize or justify this tragedy. Its just plain sad.

I told ya. The kid was on PROZAC. I freaking KNEW it.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/articl...&feed=rss.news


--
He was taking the antidepressant Prozac and at least once was hospitalized for suicidal tendencies, said Gayle Downwind, a cultural coordinator at Red Lake Middle School, who taught Weise. It was not uncommon for Weise to spend at least one night a week at her home. "He considered my house a safe place to be," she said.

In his 16 years, Weise had lost many relatives. He was estranged from other family members and had a strained relationship with Daryl Lussier, the grandfather he killed at the start of Monday's rampage.

--

When the hell are we going to wake up and take these 'crazy pills' off the market?

Or ban firearms ?

Ooops..did i just say that ? :D

Yeah, but guns don't screw your mind up and make you crazy. These PILLS do.

<font color = lightgreen>You don't like antidepressants, Ziroc? Or only some of them?

Prozac I would not recommend. However, many people have good results with Zoloft and Serzone, especially when taken with a small dose of Xanax. The mix of the serotonin inhibitors and the tricyclic antidepressant seem to work for many people.

Now, to get back on topic.... This kid was just another nutcase who should have been under medication and psychiatric counseling already. There is no way that all the adults in this kid's life missed all the obvious warning signs. Yes, lay the blame where it is due--at the feet of Mr. Weise--but only a moron won't connect the dots of someone dressing in Goth at high school....</font>

Ummm.... what do you think Prozac IS?

And I know some stable Gothic people too ;)

Ummm.... what do you think Prozac IS? </font>[/QUOTE]<font color = lightgreen> [img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] Doesn't it beat a straight flush?

Forgive me--it was a long day by the time I wrote that. I can't always be perfect. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

I heard someone on a radio show talking about part of the Freedom Initiative (a plan that Bush et alii put together) is to have psychiatric screening for schoolchildren, including medication if need be. It will be a cold day in Niflheim (or is that a given? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) before they medicate my son without my consent. I'll have to look into that further and possibly start a thread about it.</font>

I can recall atleast two:

In 2002 a 19 year old gunman killed sixteen students in Erfurt Germany.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1952869.stm

Also in 2002 a 17 year old gunman killed a teacher and wounded a second in Bosnia-Herzegovina.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1958400.stm </font>[/QUOTE]Bosnia is not really Europe, it what would have been called the near East. Recent geo-political moves have made it become consiered a part of Europe It has different cultural values and traditions i think. Not trying to be defensive, but even given Michael Moore's hyperbole, the US does seem to have a larger problem with gun crime than most, comparable nations, i.e. without on-going internal conflicts, developed and stable government e.t.c.

[ 03-26-2005, 05:41 AM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]

Please tell me you're not serious. Bosnia the near East? What does that make Greece? And since when do cultural values and traditions decide whether a country is in Europe? (Also, what's so different about their cultural values and traditions?) Sure, people define Europe differently, but nobody has gone as far to say that Bosnia, which is more to the West than Finland btw, isn't in Europe. And also, Bosnia has been a part of European history for a looooooong time.
(Sorry to change the topic a bit, but things like that just annoy me.)

Back to the topic. Does anybody know whether this boy was supervised (by a doctor)? They say he was on Prozac, and that he had been hospitalised once... A person like this needs to see a doctor every week... It's dumb if they just stuffed him with medicine and hope he'd be okay. [img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img]

[ 03-26-2005, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

Sorry, my crap geography. To be fair, countries latitude is not always the best judge, "European" Russia, on my atlas extends past the western borders of Kazakstan. My point was re: the guns and attude towards them, the region has been war torn, and so the attitude to guns is likely to be different from that of the more 'stable' European countries.

Please tell me you're not serious. Bosnia the near East? What does that make Greece? And since when do cultural values and traditions decide whether a country is in Europe? (Also, what's so different about their cultural values and traditions?) Sure, people define Europe differently, but nobody has gone as far to say that Bosnia, which is more to the West than Finland btw, isn't in Europe. And also, Bosnia has been a part of European history for a looooooong time.
(Sorry to change the topic a bit, but things like that just annoy me.)
</font>[/QUOTE]Hm.. I don't know. My atlas doesn't show the non-EU countries. The only thing it does say at where Bosnia should have been, is 'here be dragons'. ;)

[ 03-26-2005, 06:22 AM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

Hmmm, the only reason I know about this is because Jeff Weise submitted a flash movie to newgrounds right before this.....

WARNING: Plenty of swearing in the responses to the flash (just angry people) plus the flash is pretty violent.....

Ever been to Bosnia? It's like the 3rd world and would look completely out of place next to any European countries, even the poor ones. Culture is very important for determining whether a country is part of Europe; consider Turkey for example. Plus Bosnia is presently a bit of a hotspot for Islamic militants which makes it not the safest place in the world.

Having said that, it is part of the Eurovision Song Contest, but make of that what you will! ;)

Ever been to Bosnia? It's like the 3rd world and would look completely out of place next to any European countries, even the poor ones. Culture is very important for determining whether a country is part of Europe; consider Turkey for example. Plus Bosnia is presently a bit of a hotspot for Islamic militants which makes it not the safest place in the world.

Having said that, it is part of the Eurovision Song Contest, but make of that what you will! ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I was trying to comment on the comparison between the us and europe for gun incidents, and so was making the point that Bosnia was very different from the more developed, if that's the word, western European nations, which are more comparable with the US. I wish i hadn't opened my big mouth [img]smile.gif[/img]

I was agreeing with you Aragorn [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'm just watching a PBS documentary on the whole issue of child medication - apparently 2 - 3 children in every American class are on some sort of psychiatric medication. On average, American children consume four times as many psychiatric drugs as all the children in the rest of the world combined [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img]

Hey guys, parental authority and discipline works too you know ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img]

It's okay, I understand what you meant now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It was not well expressed. I would have edited the post but it would have made the following stuff look out of place, so now i'm stcuk looking stupid [img]smile.gif[/img]

Gah, I knew they would blame video games it's always the case.
I understand that they may help, but I do not believe the are the sole problem EVERY time someone does something that happens in a video game.
If I go to the toilet and then have a shower, is that because I played the Sims alot? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] well is it?

The games are just a trigger for a deep-rooted problem. If it was not them somehting else would set them off, movies, books, or, get this, something that happened in life.

<span style="color: lightblue">Well, no, ofcourse it isn't, because that's something that happened before video games existed. And everyone knows that, until video games came along, there was no such thing as teenage violence...

I agree entirely with Ziroc - drugs have side effects, and they are not some all-curing fruit for mental problems. Depressed people need to see psycologists, not just have a magical drug that will make them happy...

Translation: I was warping data to fit the hypotheisis.

Don't worry, everyone does it. ;)
Translation: They aren't yet nambified like the rest of us namby pamby socialist whiners.

Don't worry, I'm sure if you have your way, they'll be saving the lives of murderers and killing babies soon enough there. ;) Viva La EU!!

Yep. Been there. I'd sympathize with you, but I'm not a Eurowuss, so suck it up soldier!

Translation: I was warping data to fit the hypotheisis.

Don't worry, everyone does it. ;)

Quote:

and so was making the point that Bosnia was very different from the more developed, if that's the word, western European nations, which are more comparable with the US.

Translation: They aren't yet nambified like the rest of us namby pamby socialist whiners.

Don't worry, I'm sure if you have your way, they'll be saving the lives of murderers and killing babies soon enough there. ;) Viva La EU!!

Quote:

I wish i hadn't opened my big mouth

Yep. Been there. I'd sympathize with you, but I'm not a Eurowuss, so suck it up soldier! </font>[/QUOTE]Don't call me European! We're not all the same. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 03-28-2005, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: Aragorn1 ]