Seems the ultraconservatives have decided to create an answer of their own to Michael Moore's most recent movie. And, judging by the trailer, it's gonna be hilarious - even if it doesn't actually seem to make Moore less credible.
I mean, they've got Ann Coulter and Ed Koch; an actual defense of the Patriot Act (!); some cheap strawman one-liners, claiming that Michael Moore denied any terrorist threat whatsoever and that "we" don't have any liberty; the line "I want a president seeing things in black and white"; and, best of all, the following brilliant piece of reasoning:

" Here is a man that says the United States has spread misery throughout the world...
:: pause ::
... Come on."

That one had me in stitches, literally. :D

Well, if I ever get the opportunity, I'll definitely try to see it, if only for comic value. There are many things you could criticise regarding F9/11, so it shouldn't be too difficult to counter at least *some* of Moore's points, right? ;)

The trailer can be seen here, by the way. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 09-07-2004, 05:39 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Highly amusing. There are some pretty hefty strawmen in there, 'if they only had a brain...' [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm definately going to see it (if it is released here).

It's a DVD-only release for now, unfortunately. :(

Ah. So it is. Well in that case it's probably more likely to get released waaaaaaay down here [img]smile.gif[/img] But if not, I'll just get my flatmate to score me a pirated copy.... uh, I mean, I'll just have to go without... ;)


ps: Is it just me, or does anyone else wanna bone Ann Coulter? If she's as aggressive in the sack as she is in her politics we'd be in for a treat ;)

[ 09-07-2004, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

I'm glad someone finally said that out loud. [img]tongue.gif[/img] :D

I believe passionate conservatism is something that more people could get behind. ;)

[ 09-07-2004, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[img]graemlins/1drinkspit.gif[/img] Now passionate conservative I could be down with.

The women the conserves put forth to speak are for the most part babes. They got to release all that pinned up stuff some where, That's why I'm a conservative, the conserve chicks are hot. ;)

Moore gambles on top Oscar award

Michael Moore says he won't submit "Fahrenheit 9/11" for consideration as best documentary at this year's Academy Awards. Instead, he's going for the bigger prize of best picture.

Source

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">It would not surprise me if it won either.</font>

[ 09-07-2004, 02:19 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

If it does, then it's time to bring back HUAC. [img]graemlins/1disgust.gif[/img]

Moore has an over sized ego, which suits him. He has a large body as well.

While we're on the subject of information regarding Moore that's completely irrelevant to the arguments he puts forward I'd like to say that he also wears a hat, and is sometimes not clean shaven.

How does he sleep at night...

The only reason he's so 'cuddly' is because your mother feeds him a cookie everytime he does her ;)

Sorry, just heard that one today, couldn't wait for a chance to put it to use :D

Are you trying to get yourself banned, Hierophant? ;)

While we're on the subject of information regarding Moore that's completely irrelevant to the arguments he puts forward I'd like to say that he also wears a hat, and is sometimes not clean shaven.

How does he sleep at night... </font>[/QUOTE]:D :D :D Love it!

Yours too Hiero, but man, Stratos is right. Tact is not exactly in your debating dictionary is it? [img]tongue.gif[/img] You should know better and just use those offensive jokes to me, I can take em. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Wow H, that may have been funny said in the right situation to the right person but didn't Ziroc's mom pass away recently? :(

EDIT - Actually, on further reflection, a joke about doing somebody's mom is never funny because it is too personal whether she's dead or alive or in good health or poor. It isnt' a matter of being able to 'take it' or not, it's just mean.

[ 09-09-2004, 08:15 AM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Ouch. If that is true, then OUCH. And I'm sorry I laughed, in that case, Dan. Jokes can be painfully inappropriate can't they? Ironically I made one to the Hierophant the other day about his nightly activities when he had been sitting at his grandfather's potential deathbed. You have to remember the other person wasn't intentionally trying to hurt you... just a nasty and painful coincidence.

[ 09-09-2004, 08:13 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

To put it into context, let's think about the hurt Moraine felt here when 'French jokes' were told. Those weren't even aimed at her personally, but still many of us know how much she was hurt.

Fair enough. I apologise if I caused you any distress Dan.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

While we're on the subject of information regarding Moore that's completely irrelevant to the arguments he puts forward I'd like to say that he also wears a hat, and is sometimes not clean shaven.

How does he sleep at night... </font>[/QUOTE]How? I don't know, but we just got a report that he sleeps on hay. The source is saying he sleeps with farm animals, which we cannot confirm at this time. Moore said in a statement: "I love hay! I bet Bush doesn't".


:D :D :D :D

I do think it's relevant that he's overweight slovenly unshaven and be-capped. I recall the words of one of my law professors commenting at our tendancy to wear sandals at Vermont Law School:

"Don't these people know that they're going to have to wear actual shoes and put on a tie someday if they want to be taken seriously?"

I'm not big on the "challenge the status quo" and "look at them for their ideas, not appearance" excuses either. It's all one big picture for me. Moore dresses like he directs: a quick tossing together of a hodgepodge of random and only seemingly-related things -- just enough effort to let us know he may be witty, but not enough to convey any clear picture or theme.

You may say I'm superficial. I'll just say he's a lazy slob -- which is by far a worse thing to be.

I really wanted to see this but our movie theater didnt show it.. Im not exactly sure why.

That's because the movie will be directly released on DVD, and will skip the movie theaters.

[ 09-11-2004, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

In Addison, Texas, conservatives are throwing their own movie festival. It's being held in a "Movie Tavern", and it ends tomorrow. Oh, and check out the title of the last one lol. I'm sure it's really informative...

FRIDAY
6 p.m. Michael & Me
SATURDAY
10 a.m. Remembering Saddam and Confronting Iraq
10:30 a.m. The Siege of Western Civilization VIP only
12:15 p.m. Mega Fix: The Dazzling Political Deceit That Led to 9-11 VIP only
1 p.m. Silent Victory
(2:45 p.m. The Lexington League and Covering Cuba 3: Elian)
3 p.m. Operation Eagle Strike, Is It True What They Say About Ann? and Brainwashing 101
5 p.m. Innocents Betrayed
6 p.m. Michael & Me
6:45 p.m. Entertaining Vietnam
8 p.m. DC 9/11: A Time of Crisis
8:30 p.m. To End All Wars
SUNDAY
10 a.m. and 7:30 p.m. Beyond the Passion of the Christ: The Impact
10:15 a.m. Relentless
11:35 a.m. Against Nature
1 p.m. and 3:45 p.m. George W. Bush: Faith in the White House
3:30 and 7:30 p.m. Michael Moore Hates America

Michael Moore Hates America!!

I'm here till Thursday folks! :D

Unfortunately, that project has gone nowhere and gotten zero attention.

The description sounds good, and he may actually have a good idea, but I think the title makes it... too.. hateful?

He says he wants to interview Moore, but the truth is, he wants to complain about Moore's rejection of the offer of being interviewed more.

Well, isn't that a trick taken from Moore's own handbook? Remember Roger?

True, but when Moore does those things it's... you know... different. Don't you ever read this forum?

[img]graemlins/bart.gif[/img]

Seems slightly less lame than it's title would belie lol.
I'm interested in seeing it, but I haven't seen Moore's last one either for that matter. The former doesn't have much distribution, and it looks like it just left town. Doh.

The description sounds good, and he may actually have a good idea, but I think the title makes it... too.. hateful?

He says he wants to interview Moore, but the truth is, he wants to complain about Moore's rejection of the offer of being interviewed more. </font>[/QUOTE]I hope they're going to add that hilarious footage from Saturday Night Live (? not sure, could be another show), in which the guy who made MMHA is followed by a camera team in his attempts to track down Michael Moore, who just happens to appear constantly in the background (which poor Mike Wilson never noticed until it was aired :D ).
You can say a lot of things about Michael Moore, but not that he doesn't have a good sense of humour. ;)

[ 09-14-2004, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

In my opinion the kind of people who'll only listen to a guy in shoes and a tie are only going to listen to the kind of things a guy in shoes and a tie would say. And if you can't see a clear theme in Fahrenheit 9/11 then you're really not looking hard enough. Or maybe you're looking at the wrong things - like how the people involved are dressing...

As for Moore's directing style being a "hodgepodge" I'd like to say that he builds from real peoples liveas and experiences of concrete events like job losses or election scandals and progresses from them ultimately to Orwellian anti-capitalism. Thats a hell of a lot more sophisticated than a lot of people give him credit for. His argument is constructed mostly through the use of examples, not polemic, yet clearly conveys the largely abstract points he wants to make about authority in a capitalist society whilst remaining grounded in everyday peoples lives. He knew who and what he was making this film for, and it wasn't to persuade middle america, or the right, or even the left leaning intellectuals - it was made for, and aimed at, the working class.

Also while Moore may be a slob I think calling him lazy is possibly a little misguided. From what I know of him he's a shrewd and energetic campaigner on a number of issues. I think anyone who pulls the kind of stunts he did on TV Nation can't really be considered lazy.

He was never in a shot WITH Mike Wilson, and you'll note that the way they ran into him was obviously set up. Moore would of course accept an interview from The Daily Show, especially if it makes his detractor look bad.

About others, yes, but if anyone cracks a joke at him, he threatens a lawsuit.

Moore did a similar bit on Comedy Central's The Daily Show With John Stewart. They had the 'MM Hates America' guy on talking about how Moore wouldn't return his calls, and how he had been to all these places where Moore was suppose to be, but Moore was nowhere to be found, and then every bit TDS did afterwards with their news correspondent Moore was there and ready to chat. It was hilarous, but TDS usually is. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

That's the only bit. There was no SNL bit...

I wasn't sure actually, hadn't seen the footage myself but had heard about it. Thanks for clarifying it to me, though.

Got an example?

[ 09-15-2004, 01:21 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Two other, similar documentaries - The least they can do is pick a title that isn't a play on his name or his movies, though; it's getting kinda lame. Ah well - at least you can tell by the titles how terrible they're all going to be. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

Celsius 41.11
Another anti-moore movie filmed by citizens united. Comes out september 21st. From a overview it sounds like it basically tries to debunk F9/11 and the fad around it.

http://www.citizensunited-interactive.org/c41.11/

Michael & Me
"Michael & Me" was made by talk-radio star and soon-to-be TV host Larry Elder. The 90-minute documentary takes on Moore's BFC.

[ 09-20-2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Okay, I've seen Fahrenhype 9/11 now, and it made me groan even more than Fahrenheit 9/11; they actually had that David Kopel guy (of Internet fame) in the movie as well, which is a favourite of some of the more rabid anti-Moore fans as far as I can remember from the old F9/11 threads. ;)
They managed to discuss some of the biggest non-issues and non-points of Moore's movie - Moore allegedly "faked" the layout of a single newspaper article that was shown for a second (which basically consisted of enlarging the article's head and some sloppy typos regarding the article's date); they focused on single statements made by Moore rather than the point in its entirety (fans of strawman arguments will absolutely *love* this documentary); they took Moore's statements regarding "there is no terrorist threat" out of context and blew it to ridiculous proportions, filling about a third of the movie to emphasise that people *should* be scared of terrorists and that the Patriot Act is the only thing standing between the US and Total War on American soil; according to Kopel, Iraq *was* a direct threat to the US (and the invasion was "justified" in result) just because an Udai-owned newspaper had called up to rise against the US on some rare occasions (no evidence was provided by Kopel, by the way); they "disprove" the links between Bush and the Carlyle group (and, subsequently, with Saudi Arabia) by pointing out that several Democrats are involved with that group just the same (erm...); Ann Coulter wasn't as vitriolic as her usual self (I suppose part of it was cut out ;) ), but I don't believe there were many of her lines in the movie that didn't include the word "liberals"; oh, and apparently, Michael Moore is "unpatriotic" as some alleged Hezbollah-associated filmhouses in Palestine decided to show F9/11, because Moore didn't use his "power" to disallow these filmhouses from showing it (rrrright :rolleyes: ); there's a focus on the situation in pre-invasion Iraq, but never give a single reason why *Iraq* was invaded for that situation and not one of the countless other countries in the world violating those same international laws and committing those same "atrocities"; in an unexpected twist, Michael Moore's propaganda techniques are actually compared to Hitler's (!); Michael Moore's election fraud theories were dismissed with only a single mention of an investigation that was published a few months later, while never even going into any of F9/11's "conflict of interest" accusations (which was in my opinion - if proven to be true - the most interesting part of that entire section of F9/11 and the reason why Bush's election will be fishy until the end of times, even if it turns out he still won it by a wide margin in case everyone *was* allowed and able to cast the vote they wanted to); "the military is doing a good job because the Taliban would have eaten all the Iraqi kids instead" (or something along those lines); oh, and there's some guy who thinks he's really witty by concluding that Michael Moore has to be French (?).
Oh, and note that I don't guarantee to represent this movie fairly in the above paragraph, I'm far too much in a silly mood for fair rebuttals thanks to this movie ;) ; this in case someone like, say, Oblivion decides to strawman my strawman impressions of this strawman documentary that claims to take on Michael Moore's strawman arguments in F9/11. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Basically, opinions are posed as "facts", and that's pretty much it; overwhelming the few *good* points made regarding F9/11. A great movie if you want a good laugh or simply if you are in the mood to yell at some rightwing nutters and their downright bizarre concept of reality on your screen, but not much else. ;) Let's hope the other F9/11 rebuttal movies have more substance than just a parade of hardly related personal attacks at Moore's address.

And in addition, some words by a guy named Lobst who posted this on the SA-forums, and which I agree with to some degree:
[ 10-10-2004, 05:08 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]