Of course, I don't know that this Italian cyclist is a loser, but he certainly seems like one. He's accused of distributing drugs, so he's naming names, and the bigger, the better apparently. Even better for him that evidence is optional. :(

I love the idea that Armstrong chased him down during a stage of the Tour to threaten him. Maybe Lance chased him down to pass him because it was a race?

On an unrelated note, reports have it that Lance has proposed to Sheryl Crow since his win. Now that is one heck of a prize! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-29-2004, 05:58 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

To add to the info Ronn - Simeoni is a relatively large name in the sport, and he has done well in the Tour and Giro over a number of years.

Let's remember that Simeoni himslef is NOT accused of distributing drugs as your first sentence indicates. He has testified in an investigation into Ferrari - a sports doctor with links to Lance. It is Ferrari that is being investigated for distributing drugs. You really didn't make that very clear in your first paragraph.

Certainly the accusations of threats in the race are directed against Lance. They will never be substantiated though unless the tour got a microphone close enough. It just comes down to one man's word against another. So I don't think we will ever know who is in the right and who is in the wrong on this one. It is out of character for Lance to do it, and it is hardly the sort of line that one just makes up. It is for the viewer to decide - we are all in the jury.

Go Lance, go.

Actually, I did think that Simeoni was accused, so I misunderstood that part, thanks for the correction.

The article I saw this morning was much longer, but I only had the chance to skim it, and unfortunately, I can't find it now. It spoke of a feud between the two. Did Simeoni name Lance or just the doctor?

But this part got me in both articles;

No matter how well thought of this other guy is in the sport, the idea that Lance chasing him down over this dispute seems silly. It was a race, of course he chased him down, and then passed him. Now maybe this hyphenated version of the article I saw this morning is just worded poorly. I can understand that. Believe it or not, I've worded things poorly once or twice myself. ;)

Still, I come back to 'did Simeoni name Armstrong or his doctor or both'?

[ 07-29-2004, 08:15 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Erm... I take it you haven't really followed the Tour de France, nor are all that familiar with its unwritten laws? ;) Trust me, regular Tour followers recognise the context in which it happened - Simeoni was 2 hours or something like that behind in the ranking, the stage itself was only of "minor" interest to the big shots, and all Armstrong's action did and could possibly do was ruin Simeoni's attempt to get away with a small group, as there's no chance in hell anyway that Armstrong would ever be allowed by the pack to stay away for long in this relatively "easy" stage; and other cyclists in the leading group were actually negotiating with Armstrong to please wait and return to the pack (there's actual footage of this, btw), as their chances of getting away were reduced to zilch at the same time - which Armstrong refused unless Simeoni went back with him.
It's difficult to describe (especially as talking about cycling requires a lot of jargon, which is very difficult to translate), but to me personally (and to practically any serious follower of the Tour), this little act on Armstrong's part was out of character, out of line and the only stain on his otherwise brilliant victory. Just trust me on that, whatever laity newspapers with no insight in the matter whatsoever have to say about it. ;)

Oh, and on the subject of what Simeoni did and didn't say: he didn't say anything about Armstrong using drugs, all he said is that Ferrari provided him (Simeoni) with EPO. Armstrong decided to defend Ferrari's reputation by calling Simeoni a liar during a press conference, and that's what started this entire mess. Once again I think Armstrong could have shown more restraint on his part (somehow he felt attacked personally when Simeoni was accusing Ferrari), and I feel he created a problem where there actually wasn't one to begin with - the fact that Armstrong once followed some of Ferrari's advice on training doesn't automatically imply that these ties to the Italian doctor could lead him into accusations of EPO use. To put it into perspective, among Ferrari's former pupils is 5 times Tour winner Miguel Indurain, and I don't see anyone accusing him of anything. Armstrong tarnished his reputation more by going into the offensive regarding Simeoni than he would have done if he had just kept silent about it.

[ 07-30-2004, 05:42 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Like I said above, it's very difficult to explain - and very hard to understand to any outsiders who only see 3 minute summaries of the stages on CNN (or something along those lines ;) ). But just trust me that there was no reason whatsoever for Armstrong to chase Simeoni like he did for any ranking-related reasons - Armstrong getting away from the pack in a mountain-less stage is like holding a red flag in front of a raging bull, and it would have taken the pack only relatively little difficulty to catch up with Lance.
No, it was clear from the moment I heard about it on the radio (tv broadcast had yet to begin, though footage exists and was shown later on), that this had nothing to do with Lance's interests in the overall ranking and everything with Simeoni's feud with Armstrong; as that has been reported about again and again in the previous weeks. We didn't even need Simeoni's words in the article you posted to figure out what that was all about. ;)

[ 07-30-2004, 05:37 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Yeah - I recall that stage now. I remember that Lance was happy not to chase as long as Simeeoni wasn't in the lead group. If Simeoni had been anywhere close to threatening Lance's lead then it would have been silly to let him escape with a pack. The fact that Lance chased the pack down and refused to drop back to the main bunch unless Simeoni did likewise is indicative that he took the whole thing personally rather than in the context of the event.

It certainly is symptomatic of bad blood between the two. And just backing up Groj's point, Simeoni hasn't slurred Lance over taking drugs, but he has testified against Dr Ferrari. There is nothing of substance in the way of links between Ferrari and Armstrong (so it was no slur on Lance), making Lance's reaction a tad perplexing to most.

Still it seems silly that going going faster and finishing a stage in the quickest time possible isn't the objective, but since I'm obviously not a big Tour fan, I'll defer to your judgement. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I have though seen several articles recently insinuating Lance used drugs because his doctor is accused. I'm sure that has to piss him off and leave him ready to spit piss and vinegar. I'd hate to have the greatest achievement of my professional life lessened in anyway, so I can see him being angry with the guy even if his part in casting a shadow was only indirect. Unfortunately, I can see that he'd be angry if he were guilty, too, so the threat, if he made it, doesn't seem to give me any insight.

BTW, what legal action did Simeoni take against Lance, prior to the alleged threat, and is a threat to destroy someone with your lawyer really a threat that requires police intervention?

I agree with the other guys... I recall thinking when Lance took off "What the HECK is he doing?" and it didn't take long to conclude that he had a personal thing against Simeoni, it was the only possible reason for such an irrational waste of energy, a rider contending in the General Classification chasing down someone hours behind... totally irrational (unless he's pissed about something [img]smile.gif[/img] ).

Although I don't see it as too big a deal... and I don't think it hurt Lance's rep, just a man to man personal issue, everyone's got em and Lance was in a position to ruin Simeoni's day. Overall I thought it was pretty funny, especially when everyone in the breakout asked Simeoni to leave... Lance made his point. After that stage I read some reports about the incident and I think that Lance believes for some reason that Simeoni was implicating him personally when he testified against Ferrari (right or wrong). I guess it's possible that Lance was trying to defend Ferrari (who is apparently a friend), it would indicate that Lance was VERY confident in the win for him to take that action (he's normally very focused and disciplined)

[ 07-30-2004, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Thoran ]

Well, cyclists are still human - and having to ride for three weeks, 200 kilometers a day on average simply means that you have to find a way to preserve your strength a little until you actually have to use it to the fullest. Simply said, in a minor stage like that one, the pack is often even relieved if there's a small group in the lead, so they can just "survive" and let the cyclists in the lead group struggle for that day's victory. There's a kind of unwritten non-attack pact among highly ranked cyclists to just let the day go by for other cyclists, giving themselves the opportunity to save strength for another day (in this case the final time trial that took place a day later).


Simeoni is sueing Armstrong for slander (because of the liar comment). And no, I don't think police intervention is required at all.

[ 07-30-2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

I can't make out from the info whether Simeoni went to the police or whether the police found it to be of sufficient interest to call him in for an interview. You seem to be painting it as him running to the police about the threat of lawyers, but we can't reallly be sure of that can we. The police may have called him in. Why? To add some more info to the case against the doctor, or perhaps they are interested in betting trends on the day and worried about obvious collusion, or perhaps they are cycling fans themselves and very bloody curious.

My point is that I think people are reading too much into it. So Lance has a beef with Simeoni - so what? Simeoni was required to testify in proceedings against Ferrari. Lance called him a liar - Simeoni is sueing. Let the courts sort it out.

Davros, I'm not trying to paint Simeoni as anything, as has been made clear, I don't know enough about the sport to do any painting, but I can still be curious. ;)

In fact, that is what is great about this forum. The information and point of view of others who are often more well informed on some issues. The article I used was quite small and lacked any background information on the feud, so my initial simple assumption of sour grapes on the part of Simeoni, was obvious wrong.

You yourself admit that you don't know if it was him going to the police or the police coming to him, since what occurred between the two of them was only between the two of them, with no witness, I don't mind hypothesizing that Simeoni brought this issue to the police, otherwise how would they have known about a threat? The article places his statement to the publication after his police questioning. This doesn't mean he went 'running like a scalded dog, whining and crying, with his tail tucked between his legs' to the police, but it doesn't seem too unreasonable to assume he made the complaint. After all, he does have a lawsuit against Lance that wouldn't be hurt by evidence of harassment.

But even if the police questioned him because they are cycling fans, the question is valid. Is saying you'll destroy someone with your lawyer worthy of a police investigation? Especially considering there is already ongoing litigation between the two parties? I think Groj is right; the answer is no.

[ 07-31-2004, 01:12 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]