I heard the best American speaker I've heard in a long time last night. He beat out Bill Clinton, a wonderful orator. Democratic candidate (and shoe-in since competitor Jack Ryan was run out of town for being kinky with his wife) for my Senate district, Barack Obama gave the following speech last night. Now, please, especially you "conservatives" and Republicans, tell me what the fallacies of this speech are. Tell me where you think this man is wrong. Try to ignore the "Kerry this and that" bits of the speech, if you don't mind, we can discuss Kerry himself, and his record, elsewhere.

Anyway, without additional adieu:

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NYTimes
July 27, 2004
Barack Obama's Remarks to the Democratic National Convention

The following is the text of Barack Obama’s keynote address to the Democratic National Convention, as recorded by The New York Times.


BARACK OBAMA. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, Dick Durbin. You make us all proud.

On behalf of the great state of Illinois, crossroads of a nation, Land of Lincoln, let me express my deepest gratitude for the privilege of addressing this convention.

Tonight is a particular honor for me because — let’s face it — my presence on this stage is pretty unlikely. My father was a foreign student, born and raised in a small village in Kenya. He grew up herding goats, went to school in a tin-roof shack. His father — my grandfather — was a cook, a domestic servant to the British.

But my grandfather had larger dreams for his son. Through hard work and perseverance my father got a scholarship to study in a magical place, America, that shone as a beacon of freedom and opportunity to so many who had come before.

While studying here, my father met my mother. She was born in a town on the other side of the world, in Kansas. Her father worked on oil rigs and farms through most of the Depression. The day after Pearl Harbor my grandfather signed up for duty; joined Patton’s army, marched across Europe. Back home, my grandmother raised their baby and went to work on a bomber assembly line. After the war, they studied on the G.I. Bill, bought a house through F.H.A., and later moved west all the way to Hawaii in search of opportunity.

And they, too, had big dreams for their daughter. A common dream, born of two continents.

My parents shared not only an improbable love, they shared an abiding faith in the possibilities of this nation. They would give me an African name, Barack, or ”blessed,” believing that in a tolerant America your name is no barrier to success. They imagined me going to the best schools in the land, even though they weren’t rich, because in a generous America you don’t have to be rich to achieve your potential.

They are both passed away now. And yet, I know that, on this night, they look down on me with great pride.

I stand here today, grateful for the diversity of my heritage, aware that my parents’ dreams live on in my two precious daughters. I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that, in no other country on earth, is my story even possible.

Tonight, we gather to affirm the greatness of our nation — not because of the height of our skyscrapers, or the power of our military, or the size of our economy. Our pride is based on a very simple premise, summed up in a declaration made over two hundred years ago: ‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights. That among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.’

That is the true genius of America — a faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles. That we can tuck in our children at night and know that they are fed and clothed and safe from harm. That we can say what we think, write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door. That we can have an idea and start our own business without paying a bribe. That we can participate in the political process without fear of retribution, and that our votes will be counted, at least most of the time.

This year, in this election, we are called to reaffirm our values and our commitments, to hold them against a hard reality and see how we are measuring up, to the legacy of our forbearers, and the promise of future generations.

And fellow Americans, Democrats, Republicans, Independents — I say to you tonight: we have more work to do. More work to do for the workers I met in Galesburg, Ill., who are losing their union jobs at the Maytag plant that’s moving to Mexico, and now are having to compete with their own children for jobs that pay seven bucks an hour. More to do for the father that I met who was losing his job and choking back the tears, wondering how he would pay $4,500 a month for the drugs his son needs without the health benefits that he counted on. More to do for the young woman in East St. Louis, and thousands more like her, who has the grades, has the drive, has the will, but doesn’t have the money to go to college.

Now don’t get me wrong. The people I meet — in small towns and big cities, in diners and office parks — they don’t expect government to solve all their problems. They know they have to work hard to get ahead — and they want to.

Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don’t want their tax money wasted, by a welfare agency or by the Pentagon.

Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can’t teach our kids to learn — they know that parents have to teach, that children can’t achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. They know those things.

People don’t expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all.

They know we can do better. And they want that choice.

In this election, we offer that choice. Our Party has chosen a man to lead us who embodies the best this country has to offer. And that man is John Kerry. John Kerry understands the ideals of community, faith, and service because they’ve defined his life. From his heroic service to Vietnam, to his years as a prosecutor and lieutenant governor, through two decades in the United States Senate, he has devoted himself to this country. Again and again, we’ve seen him make tough choices when easier ones were available.

His values — and his record — affirm what is best in us. John Kerry believes in an America where hard work is rewarded; so instead of offering tax breaks to companies shipping jobs overseas, he offers them to companies creating jobs here at home.

John Kerry believes in an America where all Americans can afford the same health coverage our politicians in Washington have for themselves.

John Kerry believes in energy independence, so we aren’t held hostage to the profits of oil companies, or the sabotage of foreign oil fields.

John Kerry believes in the Constitutional freedoms that have made our country the envy of the world, and he will never sacrifice our basic liberties, nor use faith as a wedge to divide us.

And John Kerry believes that in a dangerous world war must be an option sometimes, but it should never be the first option.

You know, a while back, I met a young man named Shamus in a V.F.W. Hall in East Moline, Ill.. He was a good-looking kid, six two, six three, clear eyed, with an easy smile. He told me he’d joined the Marines, and was heading to Iraq the following week. And as I listened to him explain why he’d enlisted, the absolute faith he had in our country and its leaders, his devotion to duty and service, I thought this young man was all that any of us might hope for in a child. But then I asked myself: Are we serving Shamus as well as he is serving us?

I thought of the 900 men and women — sons and daughters, husbands and wives, friends and neighbors, who won’t be returning to their own hometowns. I thought of the families I’ve met who were struggling to get by without a loved one’s full income, or whose loved ones had returned with a limb missing or nerves shattered, but who still lacked long-term health benefits because they were Reservists.

When we send our young men and women into harm’s way, we have a solemn obligation not to fudge the numbers or shade the truth about why they’re going, to care for their families while they’re gone, to tend to the soldiers upon their return, and to never ever go to war without enough troops to win the war, secure the peace, and earn the respect of the world.

Now let me be clear. Let me be clear. We have real enemies in the world. These enemies must be found. They must be pursued — and they must be defeated. John Kerry knows this.

And just as Lieutenant Kerry did not hesitate to risk his life to protect the men who served with him in Vietnam, President Kerry will not hesitate one moment to use our military might to keep America safe and secure.

John Kerry believes in America. And he knows that it’s not enough for just some of us to prosper. For alongside our famous individualism, there’s another ingredient in the American saga. A belief that we’re all connected as one people.

If there is a child on the south side of Chicago who can’t read, that matters to me, even if it’s not my child. If there’s a senior citizen somewhere who can’t pay for their prescription drugs, and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it’s not my grandparent. If there’s an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties.

It is that fundamental belief, it is that fundamental belief, I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister’s keeper that makes this country work. It’s what allows us to pursue our individual dreams and yet still come together as one American family.

E pluribus unum. Out of many, one.

Now even as we speak, there are those who are preparing to divide us, the spin masters, the negative ad peddlers who embrace the politics of anything goes. Well, I say to them tonight, there is not a liberal America and a conservative America — there is the United States of America. There is not a Black America and a White America and Latino America and Asian America — there’s the United States of America.

The pundits, the pundits like to slice-and-dice our country into Red States and Blue States; Red States for Republicans, Blue States for Democrats. But I’ve got news for them, too. We worship an awesome God in the Blue States, and we don’t like federal agents poking around in our libraries in the Red States. We coach Little League in the Blue States and yes, we’ve got some gay friends in the Red States. There are patriots who opposed the war in Iraq and there are patriots who supported the war in Iraq.

We are one people, all of us pledging allegiance to the stars and stripes, all of us defending the United States of America. In the end, that’s what this election is about. Do we participate in a politics of cynicism or do we participate in a politics of hope?

John Kerry calls on us to hope. John Edwards calls on us to hope.

I’m not talking about blind optimism here - the almost willful ignorance that thinks unemployment will go away if we just don’t think about it, or the health care crisis will solve itself if we just ignore it. That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about something more substantial. It’s the hope of slaves sitting around a fire singing freedom songs. The hope of immigrants setting out for distant shores. The hope of a young naval lieutenant bravely patrolling the Mekong Delta. The hope of a millworker’s son who dares to defy the odds. The hope of a skinny kid with a funny name who believes that America has a place for him, too.

Hope in the face of difficulty. Hope in the face of uncertainty. The audacity of hope! In the end, that is God’s greatest gift to us, the bedrock of this nation. A belief in things not seen. A belief that there are better days ahead.

I believe that we can give our middle class relief and provide working families with a road to opportunity. I believe we can provide jobs to the jobless, homes to the homeless, and reclaim young people in cities across America from violence and despair. I believe that we have a righteous wind at our backs and that as we stand on the crossroads of history, we can make the right choices, and meet the challenges that face us.

America! Tonight, if you feel the same energy that I do, if you feel the same urgency that I do, if you feel the same passion I do, if you feel the same hopefulness that I do — if we do what we must do, then I have no doubts that all across the country, from Florida to Oregon, from Washington to Maine, the people will rise up in November, and John Kerry will be sworn in as president, and John Edwards will be sworn in as vice president, and this country will reclaim its promise, and out of this long political darkness a brighter day will come.

Thank you very much everybody. God bless you. Thank you.

Ignoring the Kerry bits, there is nothing really to dislike. It was a great political speech that says the standard political things...

People don't want government handouts, they want to work. Of course there are people who want to work, but that doesn't change the fact that there are those who live for government handouts.

We are all Americans, but there are those *domestically* who would divide us. Imagine that. Was he talking about Teddy's speech, or was he possibly just referring to those *dividers* outside the hugging arms of the DNC?

We worship an awesome God. Doesn't this statement make him another raving religious maniac?

Now with all that said I reiterate, it was a very good political speech and the ideals espoused were equally good. Who is going to argue with the things he said? Is the Democratic Party offering us these things, or just saying they'd be good? ;)

If you can find a charismatic Republican, change the message from Kerry to Bush, you could basically reuse the whole speech in two weeks.

It was very good. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Oh, but where to find a charismatic Republican -- who can speak?? [img]graemlins/shooter18.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/outtahere.gif[/img] *runs*

[ 07-28-2004, 11:27 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

I phrased it that way for a reason. :D

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">Sorry Ronn but the speech would need to be changed more than just the use of the word Kerry. The first bit will work. But there are sections that would need revisions.</font>

That is the true genius of America — a faith in simple dreams, an insistence on small miracles. That we can tuck in our children at night and know that they are fed and clothed and safe from harm. That we can say what we think, write what we think, without hearing a sudden knock on the door. That we can have an idea and start our own business without paying a bribe. That we can participate in the political process without fear of retribution, and that our votes will be counted, at least most of the time.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: will need to remove , and that our votes will be counted, at least most of the time. REASON: When they aren't counted my daddy's friends will step in on your behalf to declare me president.</font>

This year, in this election, we are called to reaffirm our values and our commitments, to hold them against a hard reality and see how we are measuring up, to the legacy of our forbearers, and the promise of future generations.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">OK</font>

And fellow Americans, Democrats, Republicans, Independents — I say to you tonight: we have more work to do. More work to do for the workers I met in Galesburg, Ill., who are losing their union jobs at the Maytag plant that’s moving to Mexico, and now are having to compete with their own children for jobs that pay seven bucks an hour. More to do for the father that I met who was losing his job and choking back the tears, wondering how he would pay $4,500 a month for the drugs his son needs without the health benefits that he counted on. More to do for the young woman in East St. Louis, and thousands more like her, who has the grades, has the drive, has the will, but doesn't’t have the money to go to college.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove this paragraph as Bush is President and every thing is right with the world with Bush as President.</font>

Now don’t get me wrong. The people I meet — in small towns and big cities, in diners and office parks — they don’t expect government to solve all their problems. They know they have to work hard to get ahead — and they want to.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove this paragraph as it applies to the first. It is one thing to help those that are trying there best to help themselves but the Bush agenda is to help the rich who don't need help.</font>

Go into the collar counties around Chicago, and people will tell you they don’t want their tax money wasted, by a welfare agency or by the Pentagon.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Take out: , or by the Pentagon. The Pentagon doesn't waste billions of tax payers money. We have been tossing billions in for a good cause. That cause is...eh.....is ridding Iraq of its WoMD. </font>

Go into any inner city neighborhood, and folks will tell you that government alone can’t teach our kids to learn — they know that parents have to teach, that children can’t achieve unless we raise their expectations and turn off the television sets and eradicate the slander that says a black youth with a book is acting white. They know those things.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Change the paragraph to make everything peachy with the world the inner city does not exist. and emphasize reading, and education for kids. </font>

People don’t expect government to solve all their problems. But they sense, deep in their bones, that with just a slight change in priorities, we can make sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life, and that the doors of opportunity remain open to all.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: This paragraph needs to be reworded making sure that every child in America has a decent shot at life sounds to socialist. If you can't afford something important for your kids like education, or a heart transplant to bad. Rhumsford needs that heart more and he is willing to pay more.</font>

They know we can do better. And they want that choice.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: We know we can do better and the people want to give us a chance to do better.</font>

In this election, we offer that choice. Our Party has chosen a man to lead us who embodies the best this country has to offer. And that man is John Kerry. John Kerry understands the ideals of community, faith, and service because they’ve defined his life. From his heroic service to Vietnam, to his years as a prosecutor and lieutenant governor, through two decades in the United States Senate, he has devoted himself to this country. Again and again, we’ve seen him make tough choices when easier ones were available.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Most of the paragraph is OK changing Kerry to Bush. However this has to go "From his heroic service to Vietnam, to his years as a prosecutor and lieutenant governor, through two decades in the United States Senate," We don't need to be reminded that Bush took a cowards way out of Vietnam, and got 0 action, and files are missing from his record.</font>

His values — and his record — affirm what is best in us. John Kerry believes in an America where hard work is rewarded; so instead of offering tax breaks to companies shipping jobs overseas, he offers them to companies creating jobs here at home.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Need to be changed, as Republicans we don't want people to know that our new tax breaks will be for the rich and we don't want to lie either. Just mentioning tax breaks but not saying exactly what they are makes people drool.</font>

John Kerry believes in an America where all Americans can afford the same health coverage our politicians in Washington have for themselves.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove. Bush does not believe in universal health coverage.</font>

John Kerry believes in energy independence, so we aren’t held hostage to the profits of oil companies, or the sabotage of foreign oil fields.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: We will secure more sources of energy (Note: They just have to decide who to invade next) so we can strive for energy independence.</font>


John Kerry believes in the Constitutional freedoms that have made our country the envy of the world, and he will never sacrifice our basic liberties, nor use faith as a wedge to divide us.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: (At end) We must also balance our Freedoms with the fight against terrorism.</font>

And John Kerry believes that in a dangerous world war must be an option sometimes, but it should never be the first option.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Elaborate that war was the only option with Iraq and now the people are free from an evil dictator.</font>

You know, a while back, I met a young man named Shamus in a V.F.W. Hall in East Moline, Ill.. He was a good-looking kid, six two, six three, clear eyed, with an easy smile. He told me he’d joined the Marines, and was heading to Iraq the following week. And as I listened to him explain why he’d enlisted, the absolute faith he had in our country and its leaders, his devotion to duty and service, I thought this young man was all that any of us might hope for in a child. But then I asked myself: Are we serving Shamus as well as he is serving us?

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove last sentence, hell we don't want to remind people we stepped on our veterans.</font>

I thought of the 900 men and women — sons and daughters, husbands and wives, friends and neighbors, who won’t be returning to their own hometowns. I thought of the families I’ve met who were struggling to get by without a loved one’s full income, or whose loved ones had returned with a limb missing or nerves shattered, but who still lacked long-term health benefits because they were Reservists.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove paragraph all is peachy with the world. Need to give people good thoughts. Remind everyone what a great job our troops are doing. </font>

When we send our young men and women into harm’s way, we have a solemn obligation not to fudge the numbers or shade the truth about why they’re going, to care for their families while they’re gone, to tend to the soldiers upon their return, and to never ever go to war without enough troops to win the war, secure the peace, and earn the respect of the world.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove, fudge numbers we don't fudge the numbers we rewrite the books.</font>

Now let me be clear. Let me be clear. We have real enemies in the world. These enemies must be found. They must be pursued — and they must be defeated. John Kerry knows this.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">OK</font>

And just as Lieutenant Kerry did not hesitate to risk his life to protect the men who served with him in Vietnam, President Kerry will not hesitate one moment to use our military might to keep America safe and secure.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Another mention of service in Vietnam again remove.</font>

John Kerry believes in America. And he knows that it’s not enough for just some of us to prosper. For alongside our famous individualism, there’s another ingredient in the American saga. A belief that we’re all connected as one people.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">OK</font>

If there is a child on the south side of Chicago who can’t read, that matters to me, even if it’s not my child. If there’s a senior citizen somewhere who can’t pay for their prescription drugs, and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it’s not my grandparent. If there’s an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove, we don't care for any one else's children, or old farts to silly to make enough to retire on. They should work hard for things like every good little republican. </font>

It is that fundamental belief, it is that fundamental belief, I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister’s keeper that makes this country work. It’s what allows us to pursue our individual dreams and yet still come together as one American family.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">REPUBLICAN CHANGE: Remove, I am my own keeper and no one else's and that is what makes this country work. Aggressive Competion .

I am not even going to continue. I severely doubt Bush could use this speech with even minor changes.</font>

[ 07-28-2004, 12:16 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

I could go back and BS your BS, but since you were kind enough not to bore us with the whole article snipe by snipe, I'll refrain. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I'm glad you got that out of your system, but it doesn't change the fact that the speech, minus the naming of candidates, would work just fine at either convention because it was generic, as all good political speeches are.

[ 07-28-2004, 12:30 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

It WAS fun to watch you get it out of your system. :D

One part that was wrong in the speech was this:

"I stand here knowing that my story is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who came before me, and that, in no other country on earth, is my story even possible."

Canada.

Other than that.. great speech.

And Engerland, Djinn, and I'm sure other countries as well -- but not all of Europe (France being the only one I know about where it would be an impossible story).

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">Lets not forget Australia.</font>

[ 07-28-2004, 01:53 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

I could nitpick about some minor issues of rhetorics, but I won't [img]smile.gif[/img]
It is a truly great speech.
I especially like the emphasis of hope in the last part (although it may seem cliche to some)
as I strongly believe that hope is one of the strongest emotions and probably the most essential.

I believe Edward's speech tonight will also be a good one, and one that should be uplifting, but it will be hard to match this one.

I get bored listening to politicians dribble on and never put anything on the table. They don't give us clear cut plans they want to put into place just global ideas. It would be nice to have a canidate put a plan of action together and stand on that platform for a change.
A lot of people can say what needs to be changed and can be elequent saying it, but it doesn't change the fact it still needs to be done after all the talk. I don't want to elect a talking head, I would rather elect someone who has faith in thier plans and has enough confidence in themselves to put the plan out for all to see.

Great speech but nothing new and no plans of how to do anything. I imagine the rest of the convention will go the same way, as well as, the Republican one.

I think you'll find clear-cut plans if you're willing to look, Nightwing.

HERE for instance.

Been there still to vague. There basic ideas and platforms but no plans as to how to make it happen. I know for the sake of time they need to be a figure of what they stand for. It would be nice for someone to say " I'm for this and this is how we are going to achieve it. I'm sure there is something out there to find but I would like the politicians to find the world at some point.
Good web site to get started however.

Nice little sentence. Elaborate please.

Sure, I'll elaborate. It is my understanding that a legal immigrant or visa holder in France cannot gain access to certain jobs and benefits. There are certain jobs and positions in France that are reserved for natural-born French-folk, I am told. I did not know this until recently, and was surprised by it.

A colleague of mine works for a client of mine in France, and her work contract is up. She has explained that she cannot get anything EXCEPT contract work there because of these rules, and, accordingly she is seeking employment in the USA. She wants a job that is more than a year-to-year contract basis, but cannot get it in France. Oh, just FYI, she's an attorney.

Anyway, that's just my understanding. My point was that the USA is not the only country where an immigrant can "live the dream." My secondary point was that I am not willing to go as far as to say all first-world countries are places of such opportunity, either, because to my (limited) knowledge, some first-world countries still have rules barring immigrants from certain jobs -- France being the example I used.

Of course, if I'm wrong, I'd like to know about it.

Edwards elaborated a bit in his speech last night, if you got the chance to see it.

Errr,TL, any chance of an immigrant standing for President of the USA?

<font color=plum>I personally never watch either National Convention. At my age, I don't need any help getting to sleep at night. Besides, I find pro-rasslin to be much more entertaining - and often times more honost - than the standard line-up of speakers at either event.

However, I will note that Robert D. Raiford (on the John Boy and Billy show) did watch Barack Obama's speech and was equally impressed with it as <font color=tan>Timber</font> is. Coming from the normally-crusty Raiford, that is high praise indeed.</font>

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">Is that all jeez almost every job in my country is year to year contract work. It is hard to get anything but, even for citizens that is not the country but companies being cheap at not wanting to dish out employee benefits, so they pay a contractor more money but avoid benefits. As a Canadian you can't just go and work any job in the US unless there is a limited supply of workers. My field no problem easy to get a visa for work as in IT or engineering. You will unlikely get a job as a janitor in the US however if you are not a citizen. France probably has just as much opportunity but the rules vary slightly. Maybe there is no shortage of lawyers over there. Actually there is no shortage of them over here either.</font>

[ 07-29-2004, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

A fine nit to pick, and completely expected. Yes, there are a few select elected jobs in the US that require you to be a natural-born citizen. But, an immigrant and a natural-born citizen are not otherwise distinguished under the law. There certainly isn't a "US-only" class of jobs reserved for the purebloods.

A fine nit to pick, and completely expected. Yes, there are a few select elected jobs in the US that require you to be a natural-born citizen. But, an immigrant and a natural-born citizen are not otherwise distinguished under the law. There certainly isn't a "US-only" class of jobs reserved for the purebloods. </font>[/QUOTE]That's the point I was trying to get across. There will usually be certain jobs that are barred to individuals have not, by birth or naturalization, been accepted as citizens of a country, and other other employment restrictions with regard to temporary residents who have not yet taken out citizenship of a particular country. I suspect (without proof at this point) that France is not far outside the norm in this respect.

When you then examine how difficult a state makes it to obtain citizenship, and with it access to a wider job choice, then it's a whole different debate.

[ 07-29-2004, 04:30 PM: Message edited by: Mouse ]

2 elected official jobs do not a "class" of "restricted employment" make. I'm talking about something more profound. I'm talking about the notion that only natural citizens can hold most high-paying jobs, including management jobs in most companies, including most perennial jobs with good benefits.

As I understand it, anyway. I'm glad to have someone from France to ask, of course.

And, I am making no value judgment regarding the policy. I wouldn't mind having it in effect here. Of course, the "melting pot" USA has less reason for it than a nation like France with a narrower cultural heritage group to draw from.

The only reason Obama gets face time is because the Republican Party in Illinois is in chaos. Plus, his chief rival in the Democrat primary got torpedoed with similar charges. This is the LUCKIEST candidate I have ever seen since Jim Thompson got a free pass as governor when some Larouchies snuck onto the Democrat ticket in the '80s

As for the "melting pot" idea, France is not exactly unmelted :D

Here is a brief overview.

Ah, I am disappointed, Timber. I expected statistics, not one single example. One can always find some isolated case of someone achieving a high social raise from a foreign and/or poor origin. ;)

But the reality of the "American dream" cannot be demonstrated without two sets of figures :

- statistics of social mobility (what percentage of people actually achieve the dream, reflecting one's actual chance of fulfilling it)

- figures showing the repartition of income in the population (the global expectancy of wealth of the population)

You can find the latter figures in the World Bank set of statistics here.

You can see in those figures that, concerning the repartition of income, the USA is the most inequal of the developped countries. So much for the American dream ... ;)

Not to say that the "French dream" is that much better, BTW.

As for the single personal counter-example : the guy I was dating back when I was a student was Italian. He came to France at 6, from one of the poorest parts of South Italy (on the east coast, just opposite Napoli), with his parents, who had both started working at 13. He achieved at least a Master in computer science (maybe more, but we had broken at this time, and I didn't stay in touch). And he didn't have to choose between French and Italian nationality before his majority, and even then, he could choose to keep both, which he did.

Well, fair enough Moiraine. As I said, I'm asking as much as asserting here. Let's try to remember that the main point of my original post was that the USA was not the only country where one could "live the _____ dream."

But, you didn't answer my question. Are there jobs in France that are only reserved for the citizens? This Italian fellow went to school there, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking about the workplace. I'm sure that if there are jobs that only French citizens can get, whether it be by governmental rule or corporate policy, you would be aware of it. Do such jobs exist or not?

[ 07-30-2004, 11:09 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Obama was going to likely win regardless. But, I liked Ryan a lot and hated to see what happened to him. Obama actually said it was a sad thing -- he stated it was so hard for anyone to open up all the records of their life to the scrutiny that today's politics requires.

Ignoring the Kerry stuff nothing much there to really disagree with, (I'll get to that later ;) )Interesting the referance to God, Hmmm if those words came from the mouth of a Republican there would be screams from the mountain tops about ringwing Christian lunatics in the Republican party and how they wish to make everyone bow to their God and only their God. You know that is true. I also found it interesting the story of the young soldier, if the same would have come from the mouth of a Republican there would be crys of warmongering and saying the Republicans are calling anyone that disagrees with the solider are "unamercan". I couldn't help but notice he spoke of how his grandfather worked for what they wanted to have and acheived in order to make life better for his children. Not how the Gov't welfare made it possble for his grandfather to succed. Where are the examples of welfare/gov't handout recieptants succeding? What was that he said about divideing the country? HMMMMMMMMMMM, I wonder if John Edwards heard that when he gave his "Two Americas" dio-tribe.

Mr. Obama continues along the path he's set out he'll be ready for the Republican party shortly, and I for one will welcome him home. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img] :D

Prit, get over it BUSH won Florida, each and EVERY legitimate NEWS SERVICE that went down to Florida after the election and COUNTED THE VOTES, the VERY votes you claim were not counted. No matter how they counted the votes ie: only the votes in the diputed counties or recounted the entire State of Florida. Reached the same conclusion Bush won Florida. EVEN THE NY TIMES SAID SO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now you might be able to find a party-zan news service that throught their own jade onesided look at the votes might have reached another conclusion. But since there is so much complaining about party-zan ringwing press the same logic must be used and deny the leftwing Party-zan press. Oh but I forgot the same rules don't apply to the leftwing press. I challenge you to show where a single reputable news service reached a differant conclusion. I also challenge you to, after you can't find one to change you point of view in the face of the true facts.

To succeed (whatever that is) and become rich, you need to either inherit a fortune, win on the lottery or work hard to achieve it. This, on the other hand, is completely unrelated to whether you have a welfare state or not. Welfare aid is meant to help people get back on their feet if they've fallen, and is not a means to become rich and successful in itself. You're comparing apples and oranges there.

Granted, there are people who seem to be completely OK by living on goverment handouts and not make an effort to raise up, but those will never become rich and successful if they stick with that idea, and they're economically dependant on someone who might not always feel like giving away money. Not a wise decision, in other words.

Examples of Government handout folks succeeding:
Condi Rice (poor black family origin, IIRC)
Clarence Thomas (minority scholarship).

However, I don't think anyone in the party was touting government handouts. The party has moved away from handouts, and continuing to characterize it that way ignores reality (but not republican rhetoric). I note that the only significant welfare cutbacks in recent history came during the last Democratic administration, and was an issue of great concern for that president, who hammered on Congress long and hard to come up with sensible rules to force people to get off the dole.

But, spin it how you will. Your president is the one who rolled back those welfare reforms to make up for the fact he couldn't get us employed within the timeframe limitations.

I'm glad to see you've still got that "Top" and are spining it wildly just be careful when it starts to wind down. The last Dem. administartion was dragged kicking and screaming into welfare reform. Seconds after signing the bill into law they started crying about how they needed to makes CHANGES to the LAW that was just signed. He also campaigned in 96 on how he was going to makes the changes, but alas he did not, as per the last 40+ years of the dems running the show in Congress, and anybody that has a clue KNOWS Congress has the real power No/Nada/Zero/Zip can be done with out Congress at giving approval, or at the very least not opposing.(US civic's 101 Congress can OVERRIDE a Presidental veto!!!!!! Please in all of the legal book learn'n show me where the President has a simular ability? You can't! You know you can't. :D ) If you have any doubts about the last dem. president campaigning to set right the welfare reforms passed by the REPUBLICAN House and Senate check out some history. T.L. you're a professional Lawyer but believe me when I tell you that you wouldn't want to defend that position against me in front of a judge, I don't know legal crap but I'd wax you, a jury maybe cause there are lots of our "peers" that can't find their ass with both hands. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Condy and Judge Thomas both succeded because they worked hard, Condy has what 3 or 4 advanced degrees? they sure as "Hale" weren't handed to her because she was poor. She earned them because she worked her rear-end off. Same for Judge Thomas he worked his rear-end off.


EDIT *a little nugget* check out the evil Contract with America that propeled the Republicans into power in the House. Why I believe you'll see something in it about Welfare reform, Who introduced the bill into Congress, was it the Last dem. administration? Why no it was the evil Republicans that had to be hammered into welfare reform.
Damn T.L. if I've tole you once I've told you a thoudsand times about pitching me these softball pitches. ;) At least you could try for a "bean" ball and give me the base, instead of these slow pitches and me knocking them out of the park & rounding the bases. A "bean" ball doesn't have the same effect on your ERA. as a grandslam. :D

[ 07-30-2004, 03:32 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

The fact someone works hard doesn't mean they didn't benefit from government handouts. The formula is SUPPOSED to be:

(minimal government assistance, as needed) + (lots of hard work) = success

Any person who succeeded due to "handouts" would likely fit this model. Condi does. One notable exception is Uncle Clarence Thomas, a lazy student who cruised by on a C average at Harvard and philandered his way through his career until landing in a cushy lifetime job, only to turn on those very programs he benefitted from. So, your recollection of his hard work is dead wrong.

So is your recollection of welfare reform. And, presidents may not have the power to override a veto, but they do strongly sway their party, and they do get to propose laws -- they are part of the congressional process. Let's not ignore reality.

Graduating from Harvard, even on a C average is still quite an accomplishment, especially compared to the likes of Al Gore, whose father bought him a trip to a couple of Ivy League schools where he dropped/flunked out.

They also have to power to mandate Executive Orders, which circumvent (at least temporarily) the legislative branch.

You don't understand. I know an admittedly-lazy student at Harvard who spent one whole semester doing plays off campus and avoiding work whose lowest grade was a C. Harvard Law grades on an A- curve, and no one flunks. About the absolute worst you can do, if you just show up for a final exam, is a C or C-. I'm sure what you said made sense to you based on how normal school grade curves work, but I think you'll see things in a different light with this added piece of information. The jaded among us believe that Harvard considers even its worst students to be better than the rest of us, so it doesn't flunk hardly anybody. This issue has gotten a lot of press in recent years.

And, my school graded on a B- curve, which I often have to explain to people in interviews because so many schools grade on a high curve. It's quite often that I have to explain this and then point out that they should look at my class rank to confirm it. ;)

Still waiting to hear from Moirainne, but I do note the French national vacation period doesn't end for most people until Aug. 20th, so maybe she's having fun in the sun in the meantime.

No arguement about Helping people out via gov't/private individuals etc. Eveybody needs help in some way I've yet to see a baby born that can function without help. You've yet to show me an example of sucess without hard work, I shall wait with baited breath ;)

I'm not ignoring reality, yes the President of the USA is part of the Congressional process(civics 101 or scholastic rock if you're old enough "I'm just a bill, sitting here on Capital Hill" Harris breaks into song ;) ) in MOST cases he is the final authority, the reality is vetos are hard to override, but hard is not imposssible. As Sherlock says "once you illeminate the impossible, what you have left NO matter how improbable(sp?) is the solution." (Paraphased by me) Now T.L. I couldn't help but notice you have not answered who propossed the act formally known as Welfare reform, Nor did you address wiether or not it was in the "Contract with America" created by that most evil of humans Newt [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: What about President Cliton's campaign of '96 where he said he would make changes to the welfare reform act but didn't? IIRC he even went so far as to on at least one occasion state he shouldn't have signed the welfare reform act. Now if that is true how can one even thunk about giving him crebit for the act?

"Those who remain silent are said to consent."(I forgot the Latin for the phrase, guess I better watch "Reguarding Henry" again) ;)

[ 08-06-2004, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]