http://www.womenswallstreet.com/WWS/...&articleid=711

Read the whole thing, it's very interesting.

My fear of Arabs is at an all-time high... thanks to this article. :rolleyes:

Be afraid.

I'm not really sure what to think, other than to note that our current security is a cluster.

I've been called aside for personal attention six times since all this started. Two of those times involved me stripping to my boxers.

In all cases I was travelling in uniform (either Summer White or Service Dress Blue) and under orders, which I showed to the supervising officer.

They always thought orders quite fascinating, and called in more and more supervisors to pass them around.

When not travelling under orders, I try my best to look as suspicious, unkempt, and discontented with society as possible, so as to avoid the notice of the screeners [img]smile.gif[/img]

Puts me and my hard-line liberal minded defense of personal and civil rights in my place...that's scary---but you have to admit, she wrote it to be scary, too...

hmm...still enough to keep me grounded.

Isn't it funny, when travelling under orders you're supposed to be exempt from security checks (at least the more invasive ones) but I've never heard of a case where that convention has been observed.

I fly only EL-AL company (our national one) it is 300% safe.
I have a very good solution of how we will solve the conundrum. Middle east citizens will fly only in their own country's planes. Let them bomb Saudi arabia airlines packed with 100% arabs, i can't care less (not that i have anything against them, i simply do not care). Every one that was born in middle east (or one of his ancetors was born there) is to be considered a citizen of middle east. I guarantee you that there would not be hijackings or bombs.

I can almost guarantee that the majority of them consider themselves citizens of the middle east before any other national affiliation

<font color=skyblue>I responded to the editor with this e-mail...</font>

After reading your story, I wanted to share what I thought about the fourteen men. It is not entirely unfeasible to imagine that they could have been performing a test, carrying out actions and performing tasks that were innocent in itself, but then they could call back to their superiors and let them know that they had not been stopped in their odd behaviors. That would tell the future bomb-makers about how smoothly a future operation or terrorism might run. Does this theory make sense? See where I am going with it?



Larry

Winston-Salem, North Carolina

Hey Black Baron, I note your "Arabs only fly Arab airliners" rule would put a lot of planes in the air being driven by -- Arabs. I think we'll pass on doing that here. The last time a lot of Middle Eastern men flew planes here, the results were shocking.

Yes but what I think that he was getting at wast that Middle Eastern hijackers wouldn't want to kill 300+ arabs every time they did a Suicide attack. it would slightly dimish their standing in arab eyes. About El Al, it's a good airline, but their Stewardesses aren't as nice as Luftansa's [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-16-2004, 02:27 PM: Message edited by: Sir Degrader ]

I think that's exactly what they were doing Larry, if they had wanted to blow up the plane by assembling a bomb in midair, by the time air marshals had a chance to act (or took the moment to act) it would've been too late for that plane.

A truly chilling article... but I stopped reading in depth and started skimming the moment I saw "Ann Coulter".

Very worrying! Michael Moore would be proud of you all.

"Then another man from the group stood up and took something from his carry-on in the overhead bin. It was about a foot long and was rolled in cloth. He headed toward the back of the cabin with the object. Five minutes later, several more of the Middle Eastern men began using the forward lavatory consecutively. In the back, several of the men stood up and used the back lavatory consecutively as well."

Why would Muslims use the toilet at the same time? (Hint: Feet.)

What could be a foot long and rolled in cloth? (Hint: it's a mat, you kneel on it and you pray)

Welcome aboard Paranoia Airlines!

Live your life in fear if you want. Don't be complacent, be aware, but please don't be ridiculous!

Arrrgh, Timber, you have found a flaw in my plan. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

But then you can restrict some flying zones to all the planes and develop a good train/bus network instead.

I can assure you thet EL-AL is only 100% safe.

As for the other business. Shoe bomber Richard Reid flew from Paris to Miami on an American Airlines flight. He was a British citizen flying on a British passport. His father was Jamaican and his mother was white English.

Which airline should he have travelled?

What you are suggesting is facism pure and simple. How will you identify these "middle-eastern" people? Yellow Crescents stitched to their clothes?

OMG -- the dread F-word rears its ugly head. Yellow Crescents on their clothing wouldn't work -- clothing can be changed. I was thinking numerical tatoos.

Can't do numerical tatoos. This is waaay over line.

How i identify people from middle east? Simple. By their passport. Reid is an exception. I am sorry, but it is either that, or sending baggage on separate plane, and having everyone stripped before the flight. I flew on lufthanza and their security is a joke. Little girl (maybe 4 years old, if that) with her doll was not checked. The fact that the doll could be full of C4 escaped the minds of the security guards. If i was a terrorist, the plane would have crashed after 1/2 an hour.

I got more scared by some of the responses in this topic than by the article itself, to be honest.

this is a joke, right? must be, because i think i was laughing out loud when i read this...

paranoia's bad, m'kay...

I hope there's a certain irony you're catching onto here.

Ditto.

Reid is not an exception, there are millions of people all over the world who don't carry the passport of their birthplace.Also not every muslim is dark skinned, some of the people captured in Afgahnistan were white Americans, how would they be treated on an Aeroplane if they went to the toilet at the same time as 13 other white people ?

Hey, since the article is full of speculation and assumption I can add my own bit of specul-assuming and it's all even....

Let us first consider the starting point of the journey...Detroit in the great state of Michigan, the state with the(IIRC) largest population of Arabs in America. The destination- Los Angeles, an internatonal town with an international airport, with plenty of flights heading to points east, far, middle and close. So, the non-paranoid assumption would be these men had paid a visit to family living in America and were on their way home.

Another point of specul-assuming has already been addressed by Davros (ed- actually Donut). Thank you Donut. Amazing how a little cultural knowledge and understanding can take the steam out of a whole bunch of paranoid assumption.

I also read somewhere that it is common practice for an airline to split large groups of people thtough-out the plane, regardless of their genectic heritage or nationality. This may have been mentioned in the article-I forget and don't care to read it all again at the moment.

Along with the paranoid over-tone the article suffers severe Arab-phobia and this is only further accented by using a quote of Ann Coulter's, who once said with regards to the middle east-

Uh, Ann Coulter makes me want to vomit.
******************
Anyway,


The use of racial fear is a devious ploy and works great on the uninformed. Watch the old film Reefer Madness and check out some of the Hearst newspaper articles concerning black's and hispanic's and Marijuana use in the 20's and 30's. No wonder they made it illegal!

Get enough people scared of something, real or imagined, and they will sell-out not only their own civil and human rights but their neighbor's as well.

edited to give credit where credit is due.

[ 07-17-2004, 03:01 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

that explanation possibly explains one of the mass trips, but not 2 in the space of a 4 hour flight, having been in the middle east and listened to the call to prayers I can tell you that from personal experience, aside from that with the heightened security warnings we've had since spring it's unsurprising that having 14 Syrians on one flight would cause a mild panic in those also riding with them, if the FBI, FAM, LAPD, etc determined they weren't a threat then that's fine, but the manner in which they acted along with the knowledge we have justifies the conclusions, much as you believe the conclusions leapt to by your hero Michael Moore, and refuse to accept that he altered speaches, changed the tone of arguements, etc, maybe when your country, and countrymen are blown to pieces by terrorists you'll understand our concern.

Pray tell inform me when Muslim became a race? It's a religion, not a color of skin. Use the proper terminology when you nit-pick.

Gosh, you actually had a point going until you assumed that Michael Moore is a hero of mine and that I beleive the conclusions he leaps too. Weak. Lame.


As for thinking I am not concerned about terrorism- That's just a lame, weak cheap shot. Weak and lame. I just dont let fear rule my life and I recognize when someone is trying to manipulate using fear- case in point being the article in the OP.

Pray tell inform me where the article in the OP mentioned Muslims? This snippet from page one of the article and I rest my case:

Hmmm Middle Eastern men, That is a racial enough inference to justify my use of the term racial fear. Even if not exact- it works to drive my point home.

You are the one who seems to be nitpicking.

But why??!! It wouldn't cause me to panic. What racial stereotypes would people have floating around in their heads that would cause them to panic when seeing 14 'Syrians' on an aeroplane? Donut, Davros and Chewbacca are right, this paranoia is ridiculous!

I'm going to essentially parrot Groj, Chewie and Aerich and say that the xenophobia expressed in this thread has me deeply, deeply concerned for the future of the United States. It seems to me that the prejudices of some American citizens are greater threats to American 'freedom' than the maccinations of foreign militants :eek:

[ 07-17-2004, 01:15 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

My apologies Donut- earlier I gave credit for this post to Davros. Upon reviewing the thread I realized my error.

I was sorta close, both you guys have screenames that begin with "D". [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Once fear settles in, even the most mudane facial expression or gesture can be interpreted as something sinister. Panic sets in, though no crisis event is actually occuring. Mild delusions may occur and not even the reassurances that armed law enforcment officers are onboard can calm the panic. The mind turns and races!... Are they making a bomb?.... Are they armed?... That woman is crying.... We are all gonna die!... So intense grow the panic that God is called for, to relieve the pressure of fear on the psyche.

Even after the fact, when it is reported that what seemed sinister is not, the imagination wont let go of the fearful imagery. The terrible event is extrapolated into the future, and the arabs are still villified as potential terrorists. Even the assurances of the authorities- who have interviewed and checked on the people on the flight do not stop the mind, foggy with fear and suspicion, from imagining the worst case scenarios.... It was dry run, a test, an aborted attempt. Arabs... Bomb... airplane... moving around the cabin... suspicious gestures...terrorists.

well, since my original post got screwed the first time, here's my thoughts on the article, nice and disected... what i find surprising is that i actually AGREE with grojlich and donut on this one.

As aware Americans, my husband and I exchanged glances, and then continued to get comfortable.

yes, as an aware american i like to get comfortable by racial profiling every member of an airline flight as well. its such a great non-descriminatory pass time.

As boarding continued, we watched as, one by one, most of the Middle Eastern men made eye contact with each other. They continued to look at each other and nod, as if they were all in agreement about something.

what i notice is that she and her husband (above) are allowed to exchange glances, but when middle-eastern med do it, THATS WRONG!!! they were probably nodding in agreement about what a racist b*tch she is.

The man in the yellow T-shirt got out of his seat and went to the lavatory at the front of coach -- taking his full McDonald's bag with him.

maybe he's thinking about how he doesnt want you screwing with his food while hes away. so he went to the bathroom? this punta says "i'm not racist" but if it were a white guy eating mcdonalds, i doubt there would have been an issue.

Five minutes later, several more of the Middle Eastern men began using the forward lavatory consecutively. In the back, several of the men stood up and used the back lavatory consecutively as well.

you mean, GASP, that several men had to use the bathroom? granted that they were all together (you'll see later) they were probably together in the airport, which means that they likely used the bathroom at about the same time, and they would likely need to use the lavatory at around the same time as well

For the next hour, the men congregated in groups of two and three at the back of the plane for varying periods of time.

funny thing is, i've seen LOTS of people do this on planes, all the time. again, if this was a bunch of white guys, this wouldnt even be an issue.

His face did not move. In fact, the cold, defiant look he gave me sent shivers down my spine.

or maybe his cold look was more along the lines of: "you racist b*tch, why are you smiling at me when you know youre a racist piece of sh*t?"

I shared my story with a few colleagues. One mentioned she'd been on a flight with a group of foreign men who were acting strangely -- they turned out to be diamond traders.

so basically, your friends are racist b*tches too, and the men they leveled the gun of self rightous racism at didnt deserve it either?

shouldn't a group of 14 Middle Eastern men be screened before boarding a flight?

why just middle eastern men? why not all groups of people? al quada DOES have white people sympathizers too. i've got an idea... instead of advocating racism and bigotry, why dont we just properly screen everybody?

No one checked the passports of the Syrian men. No one inspected the contents of the two instrument cases or the McDonald's bag. And no one checked the limping man's orthopedic shoe.

first off, she can't know this. she saw them at the boarding desk, but security checks are done LONG before that. all those instrament cases went through the same x-rays that this punta's carry on did. i've passed through airport security with food, and you better believe they checked the bags, AND made me drink some of my soda to prove it wasnt volatile liquid. the woman ASSUMES that because they are middle eastern, they must have snuck through. what a racist b*tch.

We were asked all of these questions (and many others ) three weeks earlier when we'd traveled in Europe -- where passengers with airport layovers are rigorously questioned and screened before boarding any and every flight.

again, i fly in, out, and around europe and america all the time, and i havent found europes screening to be any more vigorous than that of the united states.

There were 14 Syrians on NWA flight #327. They were questioned at length by FAM, the FBI and the TSA upon landing in Los Angeles. The 14 Syrians had been hired as musicians to play at a casino in the desert. Adams said they were scrubbed.

so basically, you were wrong, you demeaning b*tch! all this discrimination, racial profiling, and racism, and you were wrong... just like your friends were wrong about their racism. these fourteen were friend who, because of racism weren't allowed to sit together, they're surrounded by racist shits like you, and so they want to have someone they can actually talk to. i'd congregate away from you too, b*tch! you owed these men an apology and yet...

None had arrest records (in America, I presume)

oh yes, and yet youre still a demeaning b*tch! the FB(FREAKING)I cleares these men and states that they are decent people and this presumptuous b*tch decides that since 'all middle-eastern men MUST be criminals and terrorists' that the FBI probably just doesnt know about the bombs they had in their instruments.

But I wonder, if 19 terrorists can learn to fly airplanes into buildings, couldn't 14 terrorists learn to play instruments?

or a better question: can one racist, self important, rich, white-supremist b*tch learn to get over her problems with minorities and treat them like fellow human beings?

Nice post, promethius. I agree with the substance of all your points, although not with the same strength of language.

What I don't get in all of this is why someone didn't DO SOMETHING? If you're bloody paranoid about it, talk to the people, and maybe you will find you can drop the suspicions. Make small talk, get acquainted, and then maybe subtly work the conversation around to what's in the bag, what's in the package, and what they're actually doing back there.

What I'm seeing is that all of the passengers on the flight (those who were worried/aware of the "situation") DID NOTHING. No attempt to allay their own fears, no attempt to engage the Arabs in friendly conversation, no attempt to let the Arabs know that they were making others uncomfortable or that they were being watched. Granted, some of these actions could result in hurt feelings and major embarassment if the "terrorist threat" turned out to be entirely innocuous, but it's a sight better than quivering in fear for the entire trip.

I would also question the judgment of the air marshals in this scenario. Isn't an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure? (sorry for the cliche, but it fits like a glove [img]smile.gif[/img] ) Why didn't at least one marshal identify himself in the course of a general conversation? If (and I stress the *if*) they happened to be hijackers, wouldn't the presence of an identified, watchful air marshal be a deterrent? If those Arabs were terrorists, why let them "assemble a bomb" in the back of the aircraft? Wouldn't it be better to catch terrorists BEFORE they have their weapons armed and ready?

So there's my two cents worth, and here's a little more. In that scenario, I see people frozen with fear and afraid to show leadership. Period. Regardless of what else the article was supposed to accomplish, it was dramatic fear-mongering at its worst. I'm not prepared to enter into a back-and-forth debate about the factual content of the article, the true state of airport security, etc, etc. People need to back off on the panicky fear. There's nothing wrong with being aware, but you have to keep it within boundaries. If it turns out that you, personally, are in danger, just deal with it as it comes and don't worry about it otherwise. Seeing a terrorist in every dark-skinned, vaguely Arab-looking person is a disaster, and a racial stereotype that should be avoided.

edit- nevermind
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Anyway, I'm not inclined to scorn the fearful or label the writer exactly as a racist, but I'm not going to ignore it or excuse it either.

Fear is most successful and dangerous when it goes unrecognized and is left unchecked.

I think that comprehensive screening for everyone is a superior and fair solution. It will cost more and take more time, but if stopping terrorists is such a great concern that it would allow racial profiling, than it should also allow a lesser evil- inconvience.

[ 07-17-2004, 04:22 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

Ok, maybe not an outright racist, but certainly guilty of stereotyping based on appearance and place of origin.

One last point to expand upon/bring up: what do you suppose the Arabs felt, surrounded by (primarily) white people who exuded fear? Did they not notice? Why didn't they make friendly overtures to the other passengers?

Probably because they felt singled out, and/or felt those overtures would not be met halfway. Besides, pride also enters into this. A person should be proud of who they are, and part of that can include ignoring those who may make you feel guilty or ashamed or uncomfortable about your origins.

Wow.. it turns out the real psycho was the woman!?? That's right out of a movie script!

Lanesra:

Reid was an exception, because relativly few terrorists are like him. You have caught americans in the taliban lines? How many? Not by hundreds surely. Maybe one dozen if that. It is problematic for taliban to recruit people from USA an masse.

Hierophant-The paranoia is always ridiculous untill the bomb explodes. Do you really want to hear all the stories that my friend from Border Security told me? The kids looked innocent enough, but when you checked their bags... Two kilos of explosives, once he caught someone with 5. One terrorist hid his Ak-47 in a praying mat.
Another used a donkey with explosive bags. We had a bombing when the bomb was hid in a refrigerator.

The security in your air lines is a joke. You take out evrything, siccors for manicure, pensils and the like. You always miss the more obvious threats (like the little girl with the doll). How can someone not be a paranoid when he see 14 potential hijackers and a pitiful security system?

That's the thing, a non-paranoid person would not see 'potential hijackers' when they look at people of 'middle eastern' appearance (and I cringe at myself for using the term 'middle eastern' to create a racial identity, but for purposes of communication I'll leave that in...).
All I can say in reply to you Black Baron is that I have not grown up in a climate of pervasive hatred, fear and mistrust, and frankly I think that makes my mind all the healthier. I do not assume that I shall find enemies wherever I go.
Yes I realise I'm being incredibly holier-than-thou, but it's how I genuinely think regarding this issue. Constant fear begets a sick mind dude.

[ 07-17-2004, 09:38 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Haha. Oh man! I made the exact same mistake. Sorry Mr Donut man! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Be aware of your suroundings, be prepared to do what you have to do IF you have to do anything, sit back an enjoy the ride. I don't fly because I can't carry my pocket knife, I carry it for many reasons one of them being for personal defense. I will not subjigate(sp?) my personal defense to any other human, so I don't fly any more.

I have never before feltso involved in a post I have never read before :D . Thanks to all that payed me undue credit ;) . I expect Donut is mortified to learn that his work has been earning me some plaudits.

Promethius - rarely do we find ourselves in agreement, but in this case, despite your use of overly passionate language I thought you summed up my views on the article and its writer rather well. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

That's the thing, a non-paranoid person would not see 'potential hijackers' when they look at people of 'middle eastern' appearance (and I cringe at myself for using the term 'middle eastern' to create a racial identity, but for purposes of communication I'll leave that in...).
All I can say in reply to you Black Baron is that I have not grown up in a climate of pervasive hatred, fear and mistrust, and frankly I think that makes my mind all the healthier. I do not assume that I shall find enemies wherever I go.
Yes I realise I'm being incredibly holier-than-thou, but it's how I genuinely think regarding this issue. Constant fear begets a sick mind dude. </font>[/QUOTE]There is an old saying "you are not paranoid if they are out to get you" Black Baron lives in Israel and they are out to get him!

Where the "Hale" is the walking in the other guys shoes on this one Folks? I can't help but notice there is a whole lot of "walk in the other guys shoes" crowd unwilling to put on differant shoes.