I've always respected Bill Cosby, and man, this article really hit a mark. VERY well said, IMO. Talks about reading, writing, and letting CHILDREN listen to rap with n... this, and n.... that.. I wanted to get your views on this article, and I worry about this.


http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...ts_4&printer=1

By DON BABWIN, Associated Press Writer

CHICAGO - Bill Cosby (news) went off on another tirade against the black community Thursday, telling a room full of activists that black children are running around not knowing how to read or write and "going nowhere."

He also had harsh words for struggling black men, telling them: "Stop beating up your women because you can't find a job."

Cosby made headlines in May when he upbraided some poor blacks for their grammar and accused them of squandering opportunities the civil rights movement gave them. He shot back Thursday, saying his detractors were trying in vain to hide the black community's "dirty laundry."

"Let me tell you something, your dirty laundry gets out of school at 2:30 every day, it's cursing and calling each other n------ as they're walking up and down the street," Cosby said during an appearance at the Rainbow/PUSH Coalition & Citizenship Education Fund's annual conference.

"They think they're hip," the entertainer said. "They can't read; they can't write. They're laughing and giggling, and they're going nowhere."

In his remarks in May at a commemoration of the anniversary of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision, Cosby denounced some blacks' grammar and said those who commit crimes and wind up behind bars "are not political prisoners."

"I can't even talk the way these people talk, 'Why you ain't,' 'Where you is' ... and I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk," Cosby said then. "And then I heard the father talk ... Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of crap coming out of your mouth."

Cosby elaborated Thursday on his previous comments in a talk interrupted several times by applause. He castigated some blacks, saying that they cannot simply blame whites for problems such as teen pregnancy and high school dropout rates.


"For me there is a time ... when we have to turn the mirror around," he said. "Because for me it is almost analgesic to talk about what the white man is doing against us. And it keeps a person frozen in their seat, it keeps you frozen in your hole you're sitting in."


Cosby lamented that the racial slurs once used by those who lynched blacks are now a favorite expression of black children. And he blamed parents.


"When you put on a record and that record is yelling `n----- this and n----- that' and you've got your little 6-year-old, 7-year-old sitting in the back seat of the car, those children hear that," he said.


He also condemned black men who missed out on opportunities and are now angry about their lives.


"You've got to stop beating up your women because you can't find a job, because you didn't want to get an education and now you're (earning) minimum wage," Cosby said. "You should have thought more of yourself when you were in high school, when you had an opportunity."


Cosby appeared Thursday with the Rev. Jesse Jackson (news - web sites), founder and president of the education fund, who defended the entertainer's statements.


"Bill is saying let's fight the right fight, let's level the playing field," Jackson said. "Drunk people can't do that. Illiterate people can't do that."


Cosby also said many young people are failing to honor the sacrifices made by those who struggled and died during the civil rights movement.


"Dogs, water hoses that tear the bark off trees, Emmett Till," he said, naming the black youth who was tortured and murdered in Mississippi in 1955, allegedly for whistling at a white woman. "And you're going to tell me you're going to drop out of school? You're going to tell me you're going to steal from a store?"


Cosby also said he wasn't concerned that some whites took his comments and turned them "against our people."

"Let them talk," he said.

I think he makes some good points. Especially in that his messages can apply just as much to squanderous people of any particular skin pigmentation. Wasted opportunities are not genetics-specific.

However I will admit that I cringe whenever I hear the terms 'black people' or 'white people' etc... how about just plain old 'people', without the skin-colour prefix?

Yep, same here. ANYONE that cannot read or write in this day and age is sad. Reading and writing IMO is a gift, and once learned can take you as far. I see some young folks these days (12-18) and I worry they will able to make it in life. I dunno, just worries me--ANY color.

i think, personally, that bill cosby would be the perfect image for the modern civil rights expansion. i disagree, in this case, that the reference should be made to "people" as opposed to black people because we still have a volatile situation left over from a time of slavery, and oppression is being used as a scapegoat. what bill cosby is doing is trying to alleviate that sentiment by getting people to realize that it is false, that they are taking their lives into their own hands.

i would be more than happy to see Mr. Cosby continue along his current socio-political path in an effort to bring up inner city minority education levels to a level where they should be.

Bill made some great points. His attitude is the type of attitude that leads to success. Grab a hold of your own problems and not try to blame other people. Some people might say that he's missing the point, but the fact is, the sooner we can break people out of the cycle, the better. And the only way to break them out is to convince them that the have to and want to; it cannot truly be accomplished from the outside.

His comments are relevant not only to the "black" community, but also to all youth and all people in general.

This is planet Earth dude, things don't work like that overhere. It's not just skincolour, people can get in trouble for the way they dress sometimes.

True enough, but change has to start somewhere, might as well be with you. Whether or not people take notice is up to them. At least you can feel good knowing you're doing what you think is the right thing...

True enough, but change has to start somewhere, might as well be with you. Whether or not people take notice is up to them. At least you can feel good knowing you're doing what you think is the right thing... </font>[/QUOTE]An appealing outlook Hiero, but change won't happen. It's just the way people are that prevents them from taking that step forward in bettering themselves or thinking in a more positive way. The best we can do is just work at it as individuals, but when involved in the masses, people are still idiots.

That`s a very good gesture from Bill Cosby. It`s very important to know what is right and what is wrong. More people should be aware of the fact that learning and education are very important.


Young boys, you can use a lot of help, you know
You thinkin life's all about smokin weed and ice
You <u>don't wanna be my age and can't read and write[</u>

If the truth is told, the youth can grow
Then learn to survive until they gain control
Nobody says you have to be gangstas, h*es
<u>Read more learn more, change the globe</u>Ghetto children, do your thing
Hold your head up, little man, you're a king
Young Princess when you get your wedding ring

Some wise lyrics from Nas.

My good man, say not such things! [img]smile.gif[/img] You defeat yourself before you even try.

Exactly! Cultural progress stems from the individual and the individual alone. 'The masses' are, afterall, merely a collection of individuals joined in mutual mentality. All it takes is one catalyst, one voice of dissent within the ranks of the mob, spoken loudly and clearly enough, and the direction of an entire society can change. Of course there will be frustrations, of course there will be vastly contrasting views among individuals as to how the world should and shouldn't be, but so what? More power to diversity!
Decide what your morals are, and put them into practice. If you stand firm by your own code you have nothing to fear in the pressure and persecution from others. In the end, when all is said and done and you're looking back on your life from its twilight moments, you'll be all the happier for knowing that you lived as you thought you should have.

Never say never! You have more power than that! Give yourself some credit! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-02-2004, 07:29 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

<font color=skyblue>Cosby for President! </font>

Then all Americans will get indigestion from jellow pudding. :D

My good man, say not such things! [img]smile.gif[/img] You defeat yourself before you even try.

Quote:

It's just the way people are that prevents them from taking that step forward in bettering themselves or thinking in a more positive way. The best we can do is just work at it as individuals, but when involved in the masses, people are still idiots.

Exactly! Cultural progress stems from the individual and the individual alone. 'The masses' are, afterall, merely a collection of individuals joined in mutual mentality. All it takes is one catalyst, one voice of dissent within the ranks of the mob, spoken loudly and clearly enough, and the direction of an entire society can change. Of course there will be frustrations, of course there will be vastly contrasting views among individuals as to how the world should and shouldn't be, but so what? More power to diversity!
Decide what your morals are, and put them into practice. If you stand firm by your own code you have nothing to fear in the pressure and persecution from others. In the end, when all is said and done and you're looking back on your life from its twilight moments, you'll be all the happier for knowing that you lived as you thought you should have.

Never say never! You have more power than that! Give yourself some credit! [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]Alright, let me rephrase that a little bit. Yes, I believe people can change, but I also believe it will be many years into the future before it does. When it does happen, it would have required a lot of time and effort being put into it. Trust me Hiero, like you, I try to live life as best as I can, push aside any negative aspect of it, but when it comes down to it, I can't deny what I see. So, I'm going to tell you how I see it, so please keep in mind I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm right or vis versa and I'm not trying to be an asshole about it but this is my arguement.

Hiero, you said all it takes is that one person to stand out and speak their mind and with their influence, that idealogy can also spread through the masses. I agree with that, but then again I don't. I think the only way a person will ever change is if they have the will power and motivation to take a step back and see how bad their lives really are. But most of the time, you cannot just roll a few words off your tongue to change the way a person has lived for so many years.

Bill Cosby said that rap music, in essense, influences how children act until they reach adulthood and it even influences how adults act. I know people like this, these people are influenced by rap music, a bank robbery with lyrics that has only three things in it; sex, violence, and drugs. Now this has been around for over 15 years and following along with what it has said, a person is really not likely to look at what they're doing with regret and drop this as if it were a bad habit.

If nothing else, people are just outrageously stubborn Hiero. You look at people today, and they cry and moan about something in the constitution, that their children are supposedly having a gun put to their head to sing about Santa Claus because their parents don't believe in God. These are the people that I know, people I've read about and I don't know how things are in New Zealand, but over here, just a bit harder to get through a person's skull.

I think there is only one way to influence a mob or whole groups of people, and it's not through the groups themselves, it's through the people one by one. Not by the masses because there's too much confusion, influence individuals, then when enough are, then they become the masses.

I do not take away credit where it is due, I give myself credit and I do give all my friends credit, but it's just that somethings can and can't happen, it's just the way it is. But if Bill Cosby is that motivational speaker that can change lives with his words, I will admit that I am wrong and will appreciate what he's doing for the community.

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I think Cosby said what no white guy would ever be allowed to say. He hit the subject square on and put the emphasis for the problems where they belong. I gave him a thumbs up when I heard about it a while ago.
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Because Blacks have been an oppressed minority. You and I can be colourblind in America because we are part of the majority. And our European race was the oppressor. Much harder for a Black to forget 250 or so years of the horrific reality slavery was.

I once had an illuminating conversation with a Black girl who opened my eyes to the importance of not taking away Blacks right to self identity, by removing references to skin colour.

The importance is to accept, forgive, understand and celebrate DIFFERENCE, not simply not see those differences. Colourblindness is not the answer. Enjoying the rainbow is.

Hierophant, I'm using the "America" scenario, because Cosby is an American speaking to Americans, while you're in Aotearoa. ;)

Actually the one certainty in life is that nothing is certain. Meaning that change is an inevitability. People could have suggested slavery would never end, or that the Cold War would go on forever, or that feudalism just "is". Change WILL occur, Cosby is trying to give it a push in a positive direction within his lifetime.

Oh Yorick... *points up to most recent post*

Because Blacks have been an oppressed minority. You and I can be colourblind in America because we are part of the majority. And our European race was the oppressor. Much harder for a Black to forget 250 or so years of the horrific reality slavery was.

I once had an illuminating conversation with a Black girl who opened my eyes to the importance of not taking away Blacks right to self identity, by removing references to skin colour.

The importance is to accept, forgive, understand and celebrate DIFFERENCE, not simply not see those differences. Colourblindness is not the answer. Enjoying the rainbow is. </font>[/QUOTE]It has been nearly 40 since the civil rights bills were passed, 40 Years, the VAST majority of people don't give a RAT'S REAR-END about anybody's skin color. They care if a person will do what they are supossed to do. This indentiy stuff is crap, it is an IMO attempt to remain a victim and gather as much pity for one's self and/or group as they can, it serves no other purpose.

"There is neither Jew, nor Greek, Male, nor Female, Slave, nor Free." Sounds like colorblindness to me.

****************Warning****************
Anybody attempting to even kinda sorta imply I'm racist, because of what I've writen, and the location I live in. You had better think twice, I'm nearly 43 years old and I am a Southerner, who his entire life has had to deal with people assuming that because I'm from the south, I'm racist. I'll land on anyone with both feet and stomp them into the ground, I got nearly 43 fighting this fight, and I'm damn good at it.

Well of course. Blacks are only 12 - 15% of the US population aren't they? Of course the "vast majority" don't care about self identity. I think the least Europeans can do is accept the self identity issue. Considering African Americans' self identity was stolen from them when taken from Africa, and again in the second migration into the interior, and trampled underfoot and repressed for the next 250 years. I think the self identity issue means a lot more to them than it does you or anyone else who's culture, family, language traditions and history wasn't taken from them. I repeat, it is EASY for a European to rail on about being colourblind and it all being in the past.

40 years is one generation John. That's nothing. I'm reading a book at the moment called "Remembering Slavery" that includes a CD of audio recordings of interviews with the last living ex-slaves still alive in the 1930s. As it stands now, America has had slaves longer than it has NOT. How can you write it off? Undermine the enormous psychological implications? For better and for worse, the country was built on it. It's reaping the economic benefits, as well as the social/foundational ills.

And no I don't think you're racist.

As for "no Jew/Greek", this is the context of that:

It's referring to the body of believers in Jesus. That the unity we have in Christ outweighs any temporal divisions and differences.

In other parts the bible clearly celebrates the myriad peoples following Jesus -

Tolerance is accepting that which is different, or difficult to accept. That which is alien, odd, strange, or combats ones current mode of behaviour, life or belief. Tolerance is not incorporation or absorbtion. Tolerance recognises difference and loves, frees, allows and/or celebrates it.

[ 07-03-2004, 03:47 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

In any case, what I heard spoken from the mouths of some people in Nashville was not indicative of a lack of skin colour induced prejudice. The suspicion some white folks held against any black person in took me by complete suprise. I had actually never encountered such prejudice.

On an aside, I recently suffered some prejudice myself. From an "old moneyed" Yankee. A totally unfamiliar experience. My nation of birth was held against me, as well as my faith and my choice of career. Interesting country.

Yes, when you go from an essentially monolithic society to a highly diverse one, you have to realize some people are that way...

Gangs of New York deliciously illustrates the point...

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Prejudices can be found if you look for it, however, I do not believe that in most of our society that it is a real factor...out in the boonies where the family trees don't branch much maybe but in the corporate world and in the world of businesses and companies...the only thing that matters is if you can do the job...except for govenrment service, then it only matters that you NOT be a white male as only Females and people of Color really are being hired in the cities for those positions.

In EVERY company I have worked for since 1990 it hasn't mattered what color your skin was..it was what skills you brought to the table....and what work ethic you displayed.
</font>

Yorick, Paul refers to more then just the body of beleivers, He is also refering to the fact that we are all HUMAN, we all bleed the same color, sweat the same color, if our heads are broke open it hurts. Our bones all bleach white in the desert sun. What does Chirst say to the woman at the well about racial devides, in this case where to worship, pay attention to the end of His statment. In one of the quotes you had it says "all men" then come the qualifiers so we as humans understand just how important the phrase "all men" means.

"None should parish but all should see the glory of God" (parapharsed by me).

"No man comes to the father, but by me","Lord, Lord when did we see you hungry? or thirsty? or naked?
"when you did this unto the least of these, you did it to me"
In none of those do you see anything about race, because THERE IS but one RACE, HUMAN.

There is nothing wrong with being proud of what and who a person is, the problem comes in when we as people say "You have to respect me and my background but I DON'T have to respect yours". Me, I say "respect what ever you want and I'll do the same." I'm not worried about being called a racist, I don't answer to any one calling me that, unless their hands, and feet were nailed to a cross for my sins. My feeling can't be hurt unless they are were thay aren't suposed to be!

I put the warning in there to inform people I'm not a victim and will not act like one, IF anyone wishes to step on the battlefield (in this case of Ideas) with me they had better come loaded for bear, and pack their lunch cause they are going to be there ALL day long. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for the Psyco effect, boo-hoo, boo-hoo, anybody that wishes to cry about what "X"'s grandfather did to their Granfather has a screw loose. As for me and mine we'll compain about what "X" has done to us. Their self identity was stolen? Who the "Hale" stole it? Maybe their ancester's(sp?) self Identity was stolen but their's sure WAS NOT. If they wish me to treat them as if their self Identity was stolen they had better show me the legal papers from the court case where a judge has ruled so. The Europeans can feel free to accept what ever they want, I'm not a European, I'm a Citzen of the Unitied States of America.

"the time is coming when NO Longer shall the father eat sour grapes and the son's teeth be set on edge. Each man shall pay for his own sins"(paraphrased by me) That time came nearly 2000 years ago.

40 years, I don't care if it was last week, the past is the past, what is done is done. Move forward from where we are NOW. "Any man that sets his hand to the plow and looks back is no fit for the Kingdom of Heaven." the same principle works for everything else in life.

Hey John, if I step onto the battlefield loaded with BEER, will you join me? [img]smile.gif[/img]

I concur with the points you raised, especially the part about respect; as long as it's mutual, there's no problem. I think Yorick is bringing up situations where it isn't mutual. Much as we'd like to think otherwise, there are many people who will take the "opportunity" presented by a person's ethnicity or "race" to denigrate them. I don't, however, think it's a reflection of actual belief of inferiority. It's just the easiest and most obvious way to hurt someone. To some degree, use of racial slurs may also be culturally ingrained.

That said, anyone who makes unfavourable comments on my (or anyone else's) ethnic background can expect me to view them with distrust for the rest of their lifetime. Anyone who makes them twice can expect further consequences.

Make it a battlefield loaded with that most wonderful of Canadian Exports "Crown Royal" and I'll stumble across it with you. ;)

I agree people's ethnic background doesn't mean squat, There a great and wonderful people of all ethnic backgrounds or genetic make up, there are also SOB's of all ethnic backgrounds and genetic make up.

Ah, yes, Crown Royal. The only royalty that belongs in Canada, in my humble, anti-monarchist opinion. [img]smile.gif[/img] It's a deal.

If only we could weed out all the SOBs and send them somewhere to get it out of their systems.

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LOL Aerich..the only problem being is that some people don't distinguish the SOB's the same as others. :D However I do like your suggestion of battlefield.
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Man, sorry for the late reply, life has been hectic, and still is, so I'll just quickly state that by and large I agree with you to the extent that individuals make better discussion partners than ecstatic mobs :D But I also don't believe that universal truth exists and that attempting to 'convert' others to one's beliefs is a futile operation in that true communication (the total and utter sharing of memory, thought, emotion and experience: in essence, the total merging of minds) is impossible, thus, conversion (ie: attempting to implant your truths into someone elses mind, essentially 'cloning' your ideas) is also impossible. All that exists is your truth, by which you make sense of the world. In living in accordance to your truth, and your code, you can achieve fulfilment and satisfaction.

Discussion of ideas is a wonderful thing, but the agonistic competition involved in 'debate' is what often taints the exchange of thought. Discussion, rather than debate, that's what I like [img]smile.gif[/img] There are no winners or losers when it comes to defining personal truth.

Yorick, dude, you're awesome! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] But I'm really running late for kung fu training (should have left the flat 10 minutes ago) so I'll keep my reply brief and merely state that any insinuation of colourblindedness on my part was only in the context of how you initally treat strangers. Ie: culture, rather than genetic ethnicity, for me, plays the fundamental role in determining someone's identity. So, until I talk to and get to know someone, and find out what they think their identity involves, I will try to disregard the colour of their skin in determining what I think that person is all about. If you get my somewhat rushed and addled meaning... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hiero, sorry, but as I am so tired, isn't what you're saying contradicting everything you mentioned earlier in this thread?

Aye, too bad there's not more discussion here than flaming debates. But there are those people here that just says things intentionally to get under your skin, I won't say who, but you know who you people are [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Well, my bed calls for me, so I'm off to sleep. Night.

[img]graemlins/sleeping.gif[/img]

Well, *obviously*, MagiK, we here get to pick the SOBs. Otherwise there's no point. And if *we* have any differences of opinion, it gets settled by food fight. [img]smile.gif[/img]

(Watch out for my cupcake mortars; they're lethal!!)

[ 07-06-2004, 03:20 AM: Message edited by: Aerich ]

No no [img]smile.gif[/img] Just because people can never fully communicate, does not mean that some people cannot successfully employ language to convince other people to follow their personal visions and ideas. The execution of such, I think, is essentially the essence of politics. But, I don't think that 'language' necessarily denotes 'communication'. Language is a device, a very human mind-control tool. But like most tools, its effectivness depends upon the skill of the person that wields it. Right? Some leaders are able to more readily harness the labour and goodwill of their servants than others?
Hey, wow, bed. Sleep! What a novel idea! You've convinced me to follow your ideas and actually get an early night tonight! :D

Man, i really want to continue this conversation. I like where it's going. But this isn't the thread to do it in, and since semantic philosophy isn't really a 'current event' we'll have to go to pm or make a new thread in a different forum to keep this discussion going... [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 07-06-2004, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

Oh ha ha [img]tongue.gif[/img]

My good Hiero, you have never heard of spam? It is a miraculous thing! Sure the moderators can shut this thread down if we do it too much, but we must march on, we cannot be opressed by them. Follow me :D

Yeah, it probably would be better to start a thread elsewhere, but anyway thanks for the discussion, later Hiero.

If no universal truth exsists how can one be for or against anything? If we are all equal and we each have our own truth how can anybody ever disagree with the actions/thoughts of anyone else? By what authority does a person have to say that the action of another are wrong/ close minded/ antagonistic/ agruementative/ incert negative term of choice here? If living in accordance to one's truth/code is the standard that is to be applied. Then if one's truth/code was that they have the right to steal/ rape/ murder/ incert negitve activity here, then there can be no one to say their actions are wrong. ie: death pentalty, War in Iraq, terrorism, crime, No one can disagree with another taking those courses of actions. After all it is the person's version ofyour truth and your code that must be applied to their actions. It MUST be the standard in which their actions are viewed, not the viewers version of your truth and yourcode.

I would submit the following alterative: There is your truth, my truth and THE truth. THE truth does not require the acceptance, acknowledgement, or the agreement of either your truth or my truth to exsist. The real question is does your truth, my truth seek to become one with THE truth. In my life I've discovered there are some very simple ways to find if a person seeks to know THE truth.
1) Do they acknowledge THE truth exsists? (This is the foundation, for without this foundation then there is NO such thing as wrong. If there is no wrong, then there is no reason anybody can give to disagree with anything, genocide/torture/murder/rape/stealing/lying/incert what ever you disagree with here. If no THE truth exsists one cannot complain about how another argues their version of your truth and your code without being hyocritical and violating one's own version of your truth and your code.)
2) Do they back up their truth with logical reasons, and try to explain their logic or do they just throw their truth out without any supporting reason/logic and expect others to accept it as if it was a pronouncement from on High?
3) Do they apply the same standards to their truth as to another truth? Questions to ask to find out if they apply the same standards. When presented with another truth do they dismiss it out of hand, yet complain when another dismisses their truth? Are they willing to entertain their truth being questioned, or when their truth is questioned do they seek to dismiss the question as Irrelavant/ changing the subject/ scoring points/ incert term of choice here? When asked questions do they answer the question as asked, or do they give an answer to a question that wasn't asked? If anybody's truth can not standup to some questioning how much of THE truth exsists within their version? If a person will not answer questions possed to them about their version of the truth, how can they even think of NOT accepting another's truth out of hand/ whole heartiedly?

Oh yes, you're getting quite close to my truth there ;) [img]tongue.gif[/img] Which is, that there is no right or wrong, save what you decide to be right or wrong. Reason for disagreement arises from the actions of others not conforming to your belief of how people should behave. Just because no one can ever be 'universally' right does not mean that they cannot or will not try to impose their desires upon other people. There is nothing inherantly, universally 'wrong' with killing another member of your species (I've heard you advocate such actions time and time again JDH [img]smile.gif[/img] ) or with forcing sexual procreation; such actions only become 'murder' and 'rape' when an individual judgment call is made in accordance with one's own belief structure, and within the belief structures of others within your social group. Which is absolutely fine, there's nothing good or bad about that in my mind, it seems to work, by and large.

However, agreement between individuals does not constitute universal truth. If you and I were to witness a man being killed by another man, we could both agree that the action was murder, however, this doesn't mean that the action universally was murder. Another witness, operating under a different belief system and personal truth could just as easily see the 'murder' as an 'execution', and their conclusion would be just as valid as ours. And who cares? Their disagreement doesn't have to be perceived as a threat to our judgement. We know we are right in accordance to our truth, they are more than welcome to be right in accordance to theirs. If we decide to escalate our differences to the level of physical conflict, then so be it, but none of us involved in such contest would ever be universally right to do so, we'd simply be excercising the dominance of our personal belief systems through violent subjugation of others. Which again, is only good or bad if you choose to think it is.


You raise some really interesting points here and I really want to talk about them, but I have to get to a meeting. It is my personal belief that being punctual for meeting the head of the university classics department is a wise move [img]smile.gif[/img] So, after that's done, we can keep this going.

[ 07-06-2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: The Hierophant ]

The Hiero,
I see where you are coming from and understand the logic used. I have some major problems with it though.
1)If there is no ultimate truth then "might does indeed make right". Because it is the domination of one's ideas/actions/thoughts over another, and therefor would be OK. If "No ultimate truth" exsists.
2)If there is No ultimate/absolute/total truth. Then that statement testifies against itself. "No ultimate truth" is an ultimate truth regarding the exsistance of ultimate truth, but since there is "No ultimate truth" then the statment there is "No Ultimate truth" is false by it's own standards. That would make it an oxymoron and not a paradox.
3)Since there is "No Ultimate truth" I never advocated killing of any one, you just interpted it that way. If there is "No Umltimate truth" then any links to any of my posts on this board supporting the statement advocating killing, do not exsist. You just believe they do. ;)

I believe there is a confusion of perspective and truth, the two are not the same. That then begs the question, does one realieze(sp?) there is a differance between their perspective and THE truth, and do they seek to overcome their perspective in favor of THE truth?

NY TIMES
GUEST COLUMNIST
The New Cosby Kids
By BARBARA EHRENREICH
Published: July 8, 2004

It was such a dog-bites-man story that I almost skipped right by: Billionaire Bashes Poor Blacks. The only thing that gave this particular story a little piquancy is that the billionaire doing the bashing is black himself. Bill Cosby has been attacking the poor of his race, and especially the youthful poor, for a range of sins, including using bad words, "stealing poundcake," "giggling" and failing to give their children normal names like "Bill." "The lower-economic people," Cosby announced, "are not holding up their end in this deal."

They let me down, too, sometimes — like that girl at Wendy's who gave me sweet iced tea when I had clearly specified unsweetened. She looked a little tired, but, as Cos might point out: How hard can it be to hold a job, go to high school and care for younger siblings in all your spare moments while your parents are at work?

But it's just so 1985 to beat up on the black poor. During the buildup to welfare "reform" in 1996, the comfortable denizens of think spas like the Heritage Foundation routinely excoriated poor black women for being lazy, promiscuous, government-dependent baby machines, not to mention overweight (that poundcake again). As for poor black youth, they were targeted in the 90's as a generation of "superpredators," gang-bangers and thugs.

It's time to start picking on a more up-to-date pariah group for the 21st century, and I'd like to nominate the elderly whites. Filial restraint has so far kept the would-be Social Security privatizers on the right from going after them, but the grounds for doing so are clear. For one thing, there's a startling new wave of "grandpa bandits" terrorizing rural banks. And occasionally some old duffer works himself into a frenzy listening to Cole Porter tunes and drives straight into a crowd of younger folks.

The law-abiding old whites are no prize either. Overwhelmingly, they choose indolence over employment — lounging on park benches, playing canasta — when we all know there are plenty of people-greeter jobs out there. Since it's government money that allows them to live in this degenerate state, we can expect the Heritage Foundation to reveal any day now that some seniors are cashing in their Social Security checks for vodka and Viagra. Just as welfare was said to "cause poverty," the experts may soon announce that Medicare causes baldness and that Social Security is a risk factor for osteoporosis: the correlations are undeniable.

And the menace posed by the elderly can only get worse, as ever more of them sink into debt. What's eating up their nest eggs? In many cases, drugs. How long before the streets are ruled by geezer gangs mugging us to support their insulin and beta-blocker habits?

All right, before the AARP issues a fatwa against me, could we please acknowledge that the demonization of welfare recipients wasn't based on reality either? Contrary to the stereotype, welfare moms in 1996 averaged two children per family, not six, and in surveys always expressed a desire to work, should child care become available. Incidentally, only a minority of them were African-American.

As for the black youth who so exercise Cosby, their pregnancy rates aren't "soaring," as he reportedly claimed; in fact, they're lower than they've been in decades. Ditto with crime rates. And if Cosby's worried about poor grammar and so forth, why isn't he ranting about the Bush 2005 budget, which would end a slew of programs for dropout prevention, recreation and school counseling?

Or, if he's looking for tantrum fodder, what about the fact that a black baby has a 40 percent chance of being born into poverty? You can blame adults for their poverty — if you're mean-spirited enough — but you cannot blame babies, and that's, in effect, what we're talking about here.

As the sociologist Michael Males, who monitors youth-bashing outbreaks, told me: "Younger black America today is struggling admirably against massive disinvestments in schools, terrible unemployment, harsh policing and degrading prejudices, and they're succeeding amazingly well. They deserve respect, not grown-up tantrums."

But it must be fun to beat up on people too young and too poor to fight back, or the elderly rich wouldn't do it. Cranky old rich people: now there's a demographic group that qualifies as a genuine Menace 2 Society.

Thomas L. Friedman is on leave until October, writing a book.

Heh, you know, I could ALMOST be persuaded by that article (It did scare me about the dangers of geezer gangs I shudder to think about the crowd of Hell's Angels my poor old grandma is running with [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) if it weren't for the fact that Jesse Jackson (A man who I have little respect for, but that's another matter) hadn't been behind Cosby 100%.

I have enormous respect for Bill Cosby, he's one of the few comedians who is funny without being dirty, or vulgar, and is a huge promoter of family values.

Good to see you back TL! Are you trying to make ammends by going after the Right wing Cobal(sp?), the vast conspriacy? Best be careful, I can hear the secret board meetings now and they are going to plan to crash the stock market, polute the world and kick old ladies out of their houses to get back at you. ;)

BH's article/editorial has got to be prehaps the most ignorant, as in unlearned, mass of words I thunk I've ever read. I want to see if I got this right Mr. Cosby can't say anything because he's rich, yet BH doesn't even bother to explain how Mr. Cosby became rich. Did He just happen upon his fortune while stumbling around sipping on a bottle of Mad Dog 20/20? Or prehaps he inherited it? Maybe his wealth comes from threatening to boycot companies and orginizations if they don't donate to his cause? I know he married into money right? I'd bet BH has no problems with being rich by those methods, It just seems BH has a problem with becoming rich by working for it. I wonder would BH turn down a raise when time comes for her new contract? You know a raise that would make her CLOSER to being rich. BH would surely turn any raise down in fact I bet BH has already gone to her employer and demanded that she is paid less so she can be poor. Yeah right! Mr. Cosby is qualified to make each and everyone of his statements, he's paid his dues, he left his acting career to go back and teach. A career that he was at near the top of at the time he left. He came from a poor background and make it good. No BH's problem with Mr. Cosby is not he's rich, but rather he isn't picking their cotton, working their fields, their plantation. He's made something of himself and is telling others how to do it also, how to get off the Gov't and victim teat. That makes Mr. Cosby very dangerous.