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Alright Mods...not sure if this is too hot a topic to discuss here or not, if it is please feel free to delete or lock the thread.

My personal views on Affirmative action in the US are that they are just a different kind of discrimination at best and harmful. So I found a blog entry by Jonah Goldberg kind of interesting. Im looking for some other peoples views to see what they think about what Jonah points out.

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Friday, June 25, 2004

BLACKS IN THE GLOBAL MARKET [Jonah Goldberg ]

I didn't get a chance to comment on this yesterday, but I think this story is fascinating. Harvard -- like a lot of schools, I'm certain -- is going oversees to get many of its black students. Lani Guinier and Henry Gates find the trend troubling and for not entirely illegitimate reasons. If affirmative action was intended to even the playing field for the descendants of slaves, then importing blacks from Bali or Niger doesn't really do that.

But that's what is so delicious about this story! Folks like Guinier have set up a system of bean counting and quotas so as to get more "blacks" into colleges and elsewhere. Now it turns out that maybe they are the wrong kind of blacks. I should note that it's not just immigrant blacks that are "troubling" but the kids from mixed race marriages are disproportionately getting in as blacks.

Anyway, the problem is that in order to sustain, defend and expand the racial spoils system liberals have had to argue that affirmative action is no longer a "remedy" so much as an educational benefit in itself, i.e. "diversity." So now Lee Bollinger the former President of the University of Michigan whose case was decided in the Supreme Court last year, must now defend diversity as educational tool and not as a remedy. "I don't think it should matter for purposes of admissions in higher education," said Lee C. Bollinger, the president of Columbia University, who as president of the University of Michigan fiercely defended its use of affirmative action. "The issue is not origin, but social practices," he told the Times. "It matters in American society whether you grow up black or white. It's that differential effect that really is the basis for affirmative action."

But one of the numerous ironies here is that the diversity fixation has created a market for qualified blacks that -- despite the protestations of Guinier & Co -- cannot be satisfied with the domestic supply. So, in the era of globalization there is a flight to quality. I think it's all just really, really interesting.


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Edit: I believe that all applications for schools, jobs and or Government service should not have any entries for Race, Sex or Religious information on them.</font>

[ 06-25-2004, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">I agree totally. It should be based on merit alone.</font>

[ 06-25-2004, 01:56 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">I agree totally. It should be based on merit alone.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]I'm conflicted about this subject. Merit has to be the primary consideration, of course, but what if two candidates are exactly equal except in racial/ethnic background?

I think affirmative action is a good tool to help correct imbalances, but it loses its effectiveness and rationality if it is not race that is the determining factor, but merit. That is to say, if the inequality is based on race (e.g. blacks prevented or discouraged from attending a private school based on their race, but have the grades to do so), affirmitive action is a positive thing. However, it is negative when meeting racial quotas is more important than the merits of the candidate.

Affirmative action is mostly a surface solution. The real (and very difficult) way to deal with the problem is provide more education and opportunities to those in the ghettoes.

<font color = lightgreen>You flip a coin. [img]graemlins/laugh3.gif[/img]

Seriously, that is why personal interviews exist. An in-depth interview will also have the candidate meet several current students and teachers (if a school is involved) or current employees (for businesses), to see how the current people and the candidate react to one another.

To be truly fair, applications should proceed through a double-blind system. Human resources person A accepts the applications, put the qualifications on a standard form, assigns the form a number, and passes the standard forms on to human resouces person B. Person B reviews the forms and chooses candidate numbers for interviews.
In reality, though, affirmative action is not needed. Equal opportunity already exists, thus is doesn't need to be enforced.

In the end, the only color that makes people equal, at least from an economic point of view, is green--money.</font>

Pistols at 20 paces? ;)

I never thought of Balinese people as black as the author of the rant in the original post apparently does.

Wow, the students who got in must be thanking their lucky stars eh?

Ah I never it noticed it was Jonah Goldberg at first.

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And exactly WHAT has this got to do with anything? The person pointing out the practice has no bearing at all...and I do believe he said they were seeking BLACK candidates from Bali...not Black Balinese...or is it your contention there are no black people in Bali?

Edit: and while I am at it...would it be too much to ask for you to actually comment on the subject at hand? rather than to complain about the source that brought it up?</font>

[ 06-27-2004, 12:36 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Hold up a minute, Magik. It's not necessarily a bad thing to consider what perspective the source is coming from.

That said, Djinn Raffo, it would be helpful if you would expand a little on how you think this particular author's "slant" influenced the article. I personally know nothing about Jonah Goldberg, and didn't read anything in the article that I would characterize as racist or demeaning. Instead, I would say that he brought up a legitimate point about the failure of affirmative action to address the root of the societal imbalances that it was originally designed to combat.

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Aerich Jonah is a well known "Right Wing Conservative" Author...so the lefties aroundhere automaticly just discount anything they write....rather than actually read it..and if they do read it..it is just to criticize the author rather than to address the issue....actually it's kind of standard fare here. (some times it does work the other way too with the right wing knocking a left wing person...such as Michael Moore)....but usually the substance of Left wing publishers articles get involved...not so much so in the reverse.


Edit: Wait let me say it before someone else says it... Pot, Kettle....black! :D </font>

[ 06-27-2004, 01:42 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

Yes, MagiK, im contending that there are no black people from Bali. Only South Asians. I've been to Bali, have you?

And I actually like Jonah Goldberg. Of course i don't like that he believes he's the man who was on the inside of the Clinton take down (thanks mom) but i cut him some slack because he is an entertaining writer.

If Goldberg is idiot enough to cite the Blacks coming out of Indonesian Bali as being a part of the problem with Affirmative Action in America (and i really hope that there is actually at least one black exchange student who came to America on some roundabout route via Bali to give him the justification to say YES.. black people are from Bali)..

Well if this is the contention that you are actually trying to justify then you and Goldberg himself i can honestly say don't deserve the respect i was willing to give you before i read your post. By the way.. i'm anti affirmative action.. I just don't think South Asian Black Balinese are needed to back up my claims.

Thanks for opening my eyes to Jonah Goldberg's lunacy MagiK.

Definitely no black people in Bali MagiK - I will back up Djinni Raffo on that one. I am going to go out on a limb and put that the author had one of those geographical grasps at the air and just barely missed the black African nation of Mali.

On the subject of affirmative action - I am against it and for it :D . I don't like anything that is not merit based on principle. However - if extra places are part funded by a government program under the aim of closing the socio-economic divide, and those places have minimum standards set to an acceptable tolerance of the standard course (say must be within 5-10% of standard), then I am happy with the principle. Just taking someone that is well below the standard on the basis of race would piss me off that my tax dollars were wasted on someone that doesn'thave the credentials to be there.

I guess I am more anti-affirmative action than pro, but I guess that stems from the fact that I am quite lucky to have my high paying job with an American Multi-national. The HR department that employed me had been under strict instructions that they were to find the best female candidates, but after sifting everyone they ended up shortlisting 4 that were all guys. Forttunately for me, the company did not get in as early as some with their recruiting. The best girls in our class (and in classes acoss the country) were snapped up early, with the two that had better grades than me sorting through 15-20 firm offers - they were in much demand.

[ 06-27-2004, 12:06 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

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Davros weather there are or aren't is not Jonha's contention. He has said that the Schools Amdinistrations are filling their racial quota's by pulling people from places like Bali and qualifying them as black.

We do run into a problem with definitions....Some of the Balinese people appear to be quite dark and not yellow skinned so don't fit into the Asian catagory and don't qualify as Anglos...so perhaps the schools are fudging....or perhaps there are some blacks in Bali...as I said if you look around on their Tourism site there are a fair number of locals who look pretty dark skinned.
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[ 06-27-2004, 04:10 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

LOL - or it really could be that he meant to say Mali like I said :D Logic says that I am right dude, but don't let that thought get in the way of a fantastic theory. It's just a pity we can't ask the author - excuse me - Bali? You did mean Mali and Niger didn't you?

As you say though, the point of locale is irrelevant. I was interested though that you would so find the need to defend the guys words (which you will note given the body of my response I was within reason receptive to) that you would even defend his obvious geographical slip on the basis that it could possibly be right. Too funny [img]smile.gif[/img] .

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It irks me that the person gets attacked instead of the subject matter...was my reasoning. Rather than look at the facts, and where they originated the IW member just decides that "Oh Jonah's a right wing guy, Im just gonna rip on him rather than the real issue!" I really let that irritate me too much. I suppose I should let it go, but I still maintain that there do appear to be dark skinned folk in Bali....and I refuse to believe Mr. "I been there and there ain't no black folks there." Hell Even Bob Hope Showed black people living in Bali [img]smile.gif[/img] (Ever hear of a show called the Road to Bali?) :D
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Dude - if you know enough about both countries, the socio economic backgrounds, the cultures, and where they have their children educated, the bookies would frame the payouts for a $1 bet as :

Bali - pays $5
Mali - pays $1.05.

If you will note my response, I didn't rip on your guy that badly at all. Well - apart from the obvious typo or poor grasp of geography.

Oh - there are two places that the beter off Balinese go to get an education (and the numbers are extremely minor indeed) - one is Singapore and the other is my state of Western Australia - the closest contact that that Island has to western civilisation. You did note that the Balinese are a people and not a nationality did you? The Balinese people are Indonesian. Do you import students from a country like Niger or say Mali, or an island like say Bali or Tasmania?

The native Balinese are light brown in colouring, with suntans resembling the California beach culture. There are no native Balinese that could be considered black.

The natives of Mali however ....... :D .

with suntans resembling the California beach culture.

i dont think youve been to california enough to know this...

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Davros Im sorry really...I guess I didn't word my response well at all..I was notin any way saying that you ripped him or that you were being...a "butt pain" about the issue. [img]smile.gif[/img] I was trying to explain why I bothered trying to defend what could have been a simple typo more than anything else [img]smile.gif[/img] I just guess I was being too weird to communicate properly...really sorry for the misunderstanding. Im not familiar with Mali at all by the way [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: :D just for the sake of argument however, the people being imported from mali or bali do not necessarily HAVE to be natives...just residents of. The real point of the issue is that the quota's set in place were supposed to be there to repair damages done to descendants of american slavery......so filling the ranks from overseas sort of cheats the intent.
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[ 06-28-2004, 02:53 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

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Maybe, maybe not, but I think he may be right, though the tourism office video clips show some people who could pass for "black".
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black people in California? I never would have guessed! "Brown" skinned people are considered east asian ,middle eastern or hispanic in my school not black so I guess in the case of the AA, and Jonha's article, the people were misindetified (at least by my school's standards) Still basing one's entire argument on whether black people come from Bali instead of the point is...strange to say the least.

no, magik, i am from california, we arent as tan as TV shows make us out to be... although the hispanic population IS very dark skinned.

At dawn suh, at dawn. Now I say, I do say, is that mince meat pah?

Honestly, my logic is, take the best applicant for the job. Cut the slice equal? Find a computer, insert the numbers, and have it randomly pick a number using a 10-stage operator formula. Why 10? Because 9 isn't enough and 11 is too many, that's why! Besides you can say, "but our statistical model used 10 operators in the random determination!"

Then there's always personal interviews, which can establish in detail the applicant's personality, their sensibility, and their capabilties for the job on more mundane levels.

ROFLOLWP Just how many times don't you think I have been to California dude? [img]smile.gif[/img]

And if the correct answer had been nil instead of you needing four of the five fingers of your right hand to count it, I will still trump your statement by saying that they are a lighter tan than you will see on your average episode of Bay Watch [img]smile.gif[/img] .

Sir Degrader - you are right and you are wrong - I am not distracting the issue. I made my views clear on the topic in my first and only post which was on topic. My other posts object to the contention that the writer said Bali so black people must come from Bali. That is a falsity, and from my point of view it has been interesting to see that Ray chose to dig in and defend somthing like that rather than throw away the obvious crumb of "hmm - could be a typo - couldn't it". The deeper he digs his hole on that point the more inclined I am to want to correct him.

Lastly - Ray - there is no bad blood at all dude - to pinch an American phrase "We Good".

And my last word on the topic is "MALI" :D

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What about Maui? :D </font>

What is it with you and Islands - he was talking about Countries ;)