Isn't it about time the international community actually did something about this sort of thing?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3728681.stm

I mean, fair enough if they want to destroy tunnels, but this is pretty outrageous. Also watched a camera crew following the troops, and rather than go into a house, search it for a tunnel and move on (keeping in mind that most of the occupants have fled in the last week) they just knock walls down so they can walk through houses without going out on the street.

I think i'd be pretty gutted if it were my house. Or my children being shot in the street.

[ 05-19-2004, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Untill we know for certain what happened there we can not judge it. There was a story of the kid behind a barrel that was supposedly shot by us. Later investigation showed that he was killed by palestinian fire.

If we indeed shot the crowd without warning or because the officers merely wanted to lop some heads off, it is regrettable and wrong. Reparations are in order, though i hardly see in the nearby furure that we will pay them.

The operation must continue neverthless.

Some interesting thoughts that may relate:
___________________________________________
Well, yes, to be sure, civilization has its dirty work to do. "He [Kipling] sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilized, are there to guard and feed them"-G. Orwell. (He knew what he was talking about, having once worked as a policeman.) Still, it is an extreme kind of moral obtuseness that refuses to notice the difference between a people who strive to minimize noncombatant casualties and a people who do their best to maximize them. I note also that when Arabs are injured in an Arab terrorist attack against Jews, they are cared for in Israeli hospitals, to which they have been transported by Israeli ambulances. Imagine the converse, if it were possible: Jewish inhabitants of an Arab country, injured in a Jewish-terrorist attack on Arabs. They would be torn to pieces by ululating mobs of Arabs, and the pieces would be paraded triumphantly through streets crowded with laughing revelers, the whole thing broadcast on Al-Jazeera to general rejoicing around the Arab world.

There you have the difference between civilization and barbarism. If you can't see it, I can't help you: You are morally blind. The wars we are fighting now — the war against Islamic terrorism, and also the war against the desperate, degraded, dangerous state of Middle Eastern political culture at large — are wars of civilization against barbarism. There is no guarantee of victory, and it is possible that our people's will might waver and fail; but these are not contrived or unnecessary wars against equal cultures — this is no "clash of civilizations." The enemy we face today is the same that Emperor Wen faced, and Aetius, and the monks of Lindisfarne, and Otto the First. We are not fighting against Islam, or against Arabs, or against Iraqis. We are fighting barbarism, the ancient enemy, the most ancient enemy of all.
__________________________
Source.

[ 05-19-2004, 02:35 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

A very interesting piece TL, although I've just watched a handmade video and this is nothing but barbarism.

There was a peaceful demonstration, there wasn't even much shouting. They were marching in ranks, there were no weapons on display.

Then there was a helicopter in the sky which fired a "warning missile" - the blast of which landed right in the middle of the crowd.

Next we had a tank firing "warning shells" which, suprise suprise went straight into the crowd.

I didn't see much civilisation reflected in that video.

The facts are still coming in, Shamrock.
_____________________________________
May 19, 2004
Israeli Shells Hit Crowd of Palestinians, Killing at Least 9
By JAMES BENNET

RAFAH REFUGEE CAMP, May 20 — As a throng of Palestinians marched in protest here today, an Israeli tank and helicopter gunship opened fire, leaving at least nine people dead, including children, and dozens wounded, witnesses said.

The incident began when more than a thousand Palestinians responded to a public committee's call to demonstrate this afternoon by walking down a central avenue toward the Tel al-Sultan neighborhood on Rafah's outskirts, where Israeli forces seized control Tuesday in what the Army called a hunt for militants.

As the leading edge of the crowd of men and boys approached an Israeli tank position, two thunderous explosions rang out, interspersed with jackhammer blasts of machine gun fire. Clouds of dust rose in the air as debris and blood sprayed across the road. The Palestinians turned to flee, some carrying bleeding children in their arms.

The Israeli Army expressed "deep sorrow over the loss of civilian lives" and said it was investigating the "very grave incident," but it said its troops did not fire deliberately on the marchers.

In a statement, it said that a helicopter had shot flares and "warning fire" of one missile toward an open area. It said that, because the crowd "continued to converge toward the troops," machine gun fire was opened at an "abandoned structure," and four tanks shells were also fired at the same building.

"It is possible that the casualties were a result of the tank fire on the abandoned structure," the statement continued, adding that this was "an area of combat" and that Palestinians had planted explosives in the road.

Palestinian witnesses angrily denied that any gunmen were present in the march. A reporter who was present saw two young men with semi-automatic rifles standing on the sidewalk at the rear of the marchers' route, but did not see any guns or other weapons brandished among hundreds of protesters.

In wailing ambulances and battered sedans, the wounded were rushed through rutted sand lanes to Al Najar hospital. There, shouting, shoving men converged on each vehicle, grasping for the wounded and rushing them up a concrete ramp that was spotted crimson and into the hospital.

Inside, one boy wearing only blue shorts pressed a hand to a bulky white bandage over his right eye. He lay on a flowered mattress on the floor, his face a mask of bewilderment and fear. Someone had scrawled his name in ink on his chest.

Medics lowered another boy on a stretcher onto the floor beside the first. His left pants leg, which had been torn open, was soaked with blood, and his left leg was heavily bandaged below the knee.

Turning his face as he fought back tears, Kemal Breika, 38, hovered beside the stretcher of his son, Atta, 10. "When they fired the shell, I was knocked to the ground, and my son fell on me, with shrapnel in him," Mr. Breika said.

Hisham Ashoul, 45, said the marchers had just crossed Tel Zarub square here when a hovering helicopter unleashed a missile, and a tank on a hill about 150 yards ahead opened fire. "I saw the tank fire," he said. "When we were collecting the children from the ground, they fired again."

Hospital officials were still trying to identify some of mutilated bodies this evening, but they said they had identified at least three children, aged 12, 13, and 15. One of them died not from shrapnel but from a gunshot to the head, the officials said.

Together with several other Palestinians, including a 14-year-old boy who was killed in Tel al-Sultan today, the fatalities among the protesters brought to at least 33 the number of Palestinians to die since Israeli bulldozers and tanks rolled into southern Gaza on Tuesday.

Palestinian officials called the incident an Israeli war crime, and the Palestinian prime minister, Ahmed Qurei, demanded an immediate Israeli withdrawal.

At the White House, the press secretary, Scott McLellan, said that the Bush administration had asked Israel for "the facts about what happened today." He said, "We are very concerned about reports from Gaza and the number of Palestinians who are said to have been injured and killed."

And Mr. Bush said: "I continue to urge restraint. It is essential that people respect innocent life in order for us to achieve peace. And we'll get clarification from the government."

The deaths and injuries of the protesters received widespread news coverage in Israel, feeding a growing debate about this Israeli incursion and a broader one about any presence of Israeli settlers and soldiers in Gaza.

The justice minister, Joseph Lapid, a leader of the centrist Shinui faction, seized on the deaths as further evidence that Israel should withdraw. He called the incident "A mistake, a human and diplomatic tragedy that is a result of the army's presence in Gaza."

At the Israeli parliament, Zeev Boim, the deputy defense minister, said, "We must express regret at the loss, regardless of the numbers and details."

But, he said, the demonstration was not entirely innocent. "It's not the May first parade," he said. "This is a war zone, and there are civilians in war zones. Some of them are innocent. Some are far from it and are deeply involved in terror, even when they remain defined as civilians."

Until today, Rafah had been relatively quiet, as, to the residents' surprise, Israeli forces concentrated instead on Tel al-Sultan, just to the north. Palestinians here say that militants in the area are based in Rafah. Here, Israeli forces demolished more than 80 houses last week in what the Army said was a search for weapons smuggling tunnels under an Israeli-patrolled zone and across the border with Egypt.

Israeli drones buzzed overhead today, and residents kept a wary eye on passing helicopter gunships. But those are familiar sounds and sights here, and for the most part residents of Rafah went about their business, while in Tel al-Sultan, thousands were shut in their homes by an Israeli-imposed curfew. Electricity and water was also cut off from the area, Palestinian officials said.

Before the deaths here this afternoon, an Israeli colonel leading the operation briefed reporters on its goals and tactics. Although higher-ranking officers on Tuesday had stressed the search for smuggling tunnels, this officer, identified only as Colonel Erez, said that Israeli troops in Tel al-Sultan were going house-to-house in a search for ammunition and wanted men.

"The roads and alleys are all lined with bombs and many homes are booby-trapped," he said.

He argued that Israel's decision to use ground troops, rather than simply bomb the neighborhood from the air, showed its concern for Palestinian civilians and "maintaining our moral posture."

Several wounded Palestinians interviewed in the last 24 hours said they were shot by snipers when they stepped out into the street. Noting the curfew, Colonel Erez said, "Someone who exits is obviously someone who is looking for trouble" and was therefore "a legitimate target."

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">
This is the first time I have heard of warning missile and warning shells. Hell up here we are giving hell for using pepper spray against protestors. I don't think anything fired like that from a tank or helicopter can be said to be a warning and the people doing the firing likely know that such a warning will kill at least a few. Well then again the few deaths are probably the actual warning they are trying to give. No one will care about one or two dead children. Looks like the Israelis got more deaths than they bargained for.

As for Timber I am pretty sure most Palestinian Doctors would surprise you in the treatment given to a Jewish patient if said patient survives the crowd. The barbarism you describe can also been seen in America in your own backyard if you want to find it. Currently we might see some Muslims as targets of some vigilante punks, before that gays, and before that blacks. Barbarism seems to change with the political climate. Mind you it is usually only shown on local news as it is small stuff when broadcasting to the entire country. I mean does someone in New York actually care about abuse or a couple insignificant murders in say Hawaii.

This is similar to what took place in Iraq. It became so big in the news, yet you may never hear about child abuse, or nursing abuse of the elderly by officials in certain states if you don't live there. Barbarism exist at home as well.
</font>

[ 05-19-2004, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Ugh... I could have guessed the source even if you hadn't put it at the bottom.

[ 05-19-2004, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

First of all ptitchke-you may not know but we also had our "dance with a cut head" by hamas & islamic jihad productions LTD. Arafat forbade it because it harmed the palestinian propoganda. The film was published in al jazeera for a while.
Do we have it on our side?


A warning shell can exist with no lethal casualties what so ever, provided that it explodes in an abandoned building, and provided that the demonstrators were far off enough.It did not happen? It is war. **** happens. It is not nice, but you will never name a single war where civilians were unharmed. Getting near a tank while you could be a suicide bomber (yes, that though did not cross your mind? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) is well, a suicide. What could soldier think? -I can be dead in a few moments. I can not verify thier innocense. Lets kill/scare them before i am killed and the hell with GC.
It is a very problematic situation in the best case, and must be viewed with caution. In all history of warfare there were too few wars with usage of powerfull suicide bombers. Israel as strange as it sounds has more experience with this kind of warfare. It is very easy to criticize. When you ask yourself- what the heck am i supposed to do then? you realise that there are not easy solutions nor harmless regarding the civilians.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/429428.html

The late news. Only 8 killed instead of initial 23 and 10 that came later. Still a lot, but that is (probably) the final number.

Grolschjolilac wrote:
The source alone doesn't invalidate the comments. The full article is actually pretty good.

[ 05-19-2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Yes, but it gives the more accurate number.

Edit-a found another piece of info

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//545211

it is in hebrew- the english translation is not yet ready it seems.

In summary according to IDF: 7 killed out of them 5 armed.

Can't say that it is exactly the horror of 23 killed 20 of them little children.


Needs to be verified, but if that is the truth the "massacre" get's down to somewhat "bearable" level.

[ 05-19-2004, 04:08 PM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

Lets not forget that this, the largest military incursion for decades was sparked by the deaths of five Israeli soldiers. That certainly didn't seem "bearable" to the Israeli people, and that was only five. Just because the lives being lost are Arab ones doesn't mean they are worth any less or should be accepted casually.

Whilst Arabic media is obiously quoting more, the BBC's current figures are 20 dead, a further 60 injured. Certainly from the video footage I saw, there were a lot more than 7 in the blast, I saw at least one child being carried away, and then hospital footage of one child who'd lost a leg and one who'd lost an arm. As much as Israeli media would love to portray the killed as militants, there just was not a gun in sight, and children were caught up in the explosion.

But the solution really is so so simple. 'Stay in Israel'. The entire world with the exception of the US is united in declaring the occupation illegal under international law...even a monkey could tell it is plainly illegal. It is the single biggest recruiting agent for terrorists and the biggest anti-western rallying point. If you want to win the war on terror, then surely we should address the causes of terrorism and end the occupation. I would imagine that a few more terrorists have been born today.

[ 05-19-2004, 05:35 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

At least ten Palestinians were killed and 35 wounded when Israeli forces fired on a crowd demonstrating against the invasion of a Gaza refugee camp today, according to hospital sources.

Witnesses and Palestinian security sources said tanks and a helicopter had fired on the crowd in Rafah. The wounded were taken to a nearby hospital in ambulances, private cars and donkey carts.

It is believed that around 3,000 people were taking part in the protest against the Israeli invasion of the Rafah refugee camp.

Protesters scattered in panic as the air and artillery attack took place, dragging bloodied people from the streets as smoke rose from the area.

Palestinian hospital sources cited by the Associated Press said the 10 dead were children and teenagers.

Israel's military acknowledged it fired four tank shells, one missile and machine guns to stop 3,000 Palestinian demonstrators it said were heading toward a battle zone in the Gaza Strip.

The incident prompted international condemnation. The EU said Israel's actions were "completely disproportionate" and showed "a reckless disregard for human life".

Irish Foreign Minister Brian Cowen, speaking on behalf of the EU presidency, said: "The killing of children does not serve any legitimate cause and degrades any purpose which it purports to advance."
<font size="1">Guardian</font>

<font color="#C4C1CA">With all due respect to Brian Cowen, he is wrong. This is a battle against a monstrous enemy that has been waged for a thousand years and the IDF has been fighting it for its entire existence.

The hordes of Vandals found that same enemy in the form of the Romans - fought it and lost; the viking fleets fought those same monsters on the shores of the British Isles and nearly won - only to find themselves shackled by it, Atilla the Hun came up against it, won many battles but was seduced by it and slain by it. Hitler thought he could beat it - but it still ended his life.

We shouldn't be condeming the shelling of peaceful demonstrators but praising the brave actions of the tank and helicopter crews for helping to rid the world of a few terrorist children. Those crews are all that stand between us and civilisation - they deserve our support before its too late, before we all end up living peacefully together in complete boredom, devoid of action.

The human race is barbarous by nature - it isn't too late to turn the clocks back a thousand years and give in to our base instincts. The tank and helicopter crews know this and are doing their best to make it come about - so don't criticise them. They're only 'culling' the population - not wiping it out - so that makes it alright, doesn't it?

Shamrok-We had terrorrists even before we had israel. "staying in israel" while you are bombed by katyushas, kasams, and suiciders is not an option. Untill iran and saudia exists we will have suiciders and bombings no matter what.
Notice-we had almost 0 casualties among civilians in the past few monthes. Invasion pays off!!

And about the usage of the word bearable. I live in a country that has TA as the way of life. I am sorry but i simply developed a "non sensitive" skin. To you 5 death is a lot. To me it is daily news.


Skunk-you failed to refer to my argument that the soldiers coud not possibly know who the demonstrators were.

Besides-these demonstrators had a common sence of a mugerrs from BG2 that attack korgan and minsc. Getting close to a tank while shouting, during this situation, is not wise. You may also forget but we had a couple of suiciders that were children.

Now about "international condemnation". Look who opens his mouth. USA that killed 40 people in a wedding. Annan and Company that failed in ruanda. Or should i say Annan and company that failed to achieve anything at all. The brave organization that helped hizballah to kidnap and kill 3 of our soldiers. I can continue the list if you like.

"International condemnation" is not worth anything. While no one demands from USA to pull back from iraq,and actually doing some things-like embargo, i call that kind of behaviour a hypocrite one.

I'm shocked that you even visit the NRO site Timber!!! Shocked I am! Shocked!

;)

Does anybody ever really care about anything that doesn't have any impact on their lives?

I'm sure you're not that shocked. I'm sure you have surmised -- I was led there. ;)

Skunk. Wonderful comments, great to see you coming around. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Nice to see you finally realize that some societies are simply inferior to others. Welcome, brother. :D

[ 05-20-2004, 09:44 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

When you take into account the Palestinian penchant for strapping bombs to kids what else could the Israelis do?

It's only a very short article and not all that news-worthy, but I was under the impression that China never tried to proliferate itself on any International matter outside of their direct sphere of influence, making this condemnation all the more remarkable. And there's probably some hypocrisy in there somewhere just the same...

China condemns Israel's killing of Palestinians in Rafah

BEIJING, May 20 (Xinhuanet) -- China on Thursday condemned the killing of Palestinians by Israeli army in Rafah of the Gaza Strip.
"China condemns the Israeli troops' firing at Palestinian demonstrators which resulted in heavy casualties on the Palestinian side," said Foreign Ministry spokesman Liu Jianchao at a regular press conference.
At least 10 Palestinians were killed and dozens of others injured on Wednesday when Israeli troops fired on a group of demonstrators who were protesting against an Israeli military operation in Rafah.
"We urge the Israeli side to respond to the appeal of the international community, and immediately halt its military operations in Palestinian areas to avoid further deterioration of the situation," Liu said.

XinhuaNet

<font color="#C4C1CA">
I *have* been there in that same situation on several occasions - but acting under very different (and very clear) rules of engagement.

What are you supposed to do when you are unsure about the target? WITHDRAW and perform a reconnaissance to establish the exact target, then use APPROPRIATE force. A tank shell is NOT appropriate when large numbers of non-combatents are assembled.

In time you are going to be serving in those areas yourself (if I remember correctly from your posts). When you come back, we can discuss this on a more equal level and compare notes.

I served in Northern Ireland as best as I could with as much humanity as I could muster - but then, I had strict orders to follow - orders that would have seen me court-martialed and charged with MURDER had I done the same as that tank crew. Despite that, I was disillusioned by the end of my tour of duty - convinced that it was right for troops to be there, and unconvinced by the way things worked in practice.

This bloke serves up the same kind of experiences (although his are worse) that caused me to resign my commission. He has more courage than me - I won't repeat all of the things that I saw - I'm a little too ashamed (if I'm really honest about it) that I never formally complained about the same kind of abuses (even if they were on a much lesser scale).
</font>

An interesting point skunk. (btw i will go back to the IDF at 8.6.2004, so expect me to stop spamming then. :D ) . I will have to think about it.

The US abstained from the UN's censure on this one.

Another revalation. It seems ( according to israely newspapers and idf) that a armour-piercing shells were fired. One shell of that type cannot kill such many people. A possibility that this shell detonated palestinian land mines, arises.

One wonders why palestinians that knew about these landmines, went there in the first place.

Edit:


http://news.walla.co.il/?w=//546407


the news in english are apparently not ready yet. This information was published in the official radio station-"kol israel", as well as on the "walla" site.

IDF version is : the "demonstrators" wanted to cut off a small israely force that was undercover there. IDF asked PA to prevent this demonstration but it has not done anything. The little force that was undercover did an extremely important task, so it could not pull back.

The rest is more or less known. Of course the question what killed the palestinians still stands.


Provided that this version is a correct one, that will be an answer to your suggestion, skunk. ;)

[ 05-21-2004, 10:24 AM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

Your contribution on this thread, as someone who is actually from the area we are referring to, is always welcome here, BB. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Moderators-notice that it is not useless thread necromancy, we have new developments in that case.


According to IDF it posess pictures of palestinians armed men firing at kids at this peaceful demonstration.

IMHO: It may be regarded as truthful or at the very least possible, since that "kid that hid behind the barrel wit hhis father" was also shot by palestinians, as the independant investigation found out.

Source-alas in the internet none. I could direct you to israely press, but it is unlikely that you will understand hebrew.