I'll let you folks find the links and do your own research*HINT* most if not all major news services have the story.

Now for all who have claimed there are NO, as in Zero, Nada, Zip WoMD's, even ONE shell contaning a gas destroyes that position. If My math is correct 1 is not the same as 0. Bring forth the justifcation of numbers now, I look forward to nickle and diming that position down one shell at a time until I get you to one shell is too many. In the interest of niceness and fairness I'll save you the time and effort, and show how the arguement will go and the end result before hand.

Agruement:
Well they said there were more WoMD's then that, approx 560 shells.
Counter:
OH, so 559 shells would be ok, one less shell means there are NO,ZERO,ZIP Womd's?
(Continues removing one shell at a time until the number reaches 1)

I write all that for them that have screamed about NO WoMD's, and give them the opportunity to correct their now mistaked postion and change it, or come up with a new justification for their postition of not agreeing with the war. NOBOBY has to agree with the war, just somebody please stand up and say well the ZERO WoMD's is now wrong, they in fact do exist, so the position that President Bush Lied because Zero WoMD's have been found is infact NOW a position based on a falsehood. That doesn't mean you like President Bush it just means you can reconzies the truth and say it.

<font color=deepskyblue>Now, Now, <font color=white>Mr. "Hale"</font> - let's not try to muddy the waters with irrelevant facts.

When asked about the shells found today, Hans Blix replied that these were much older weapons and had probably been there since the 80's. Now, exactly how that makes them exempt from the U.N. Sanctions isn't really clear. Maybe they had passed their Expiration Date. You know "Bomb is most deadly if used before this date - DD/MM/YY".

But it does put a kink in the argument that Saddam did not have WMD and that it was all a BIG LIE!!! ;) </font>

I found this small article at Reuters. Enjoy!

-------------------------------------------------
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - The U.S. military said Monday it had found an artillery round loaded with the sarin nerve agent in Iraq.

© Reuters 2004. All Rights Reserved.
-------------------------------------------------

Wow - they found one measly shell - glad we killed 10,000 people to get or well, god knows how many might have died had it gone off - maybe at least 10 people!

<font color=deepskyblue>Yep, one measly shell - so far. ;) But - as <font color=white>Mr. "Hale"</font> pointed out, that is still one more shell than Hans Blix and several IW members claimed were there.

OH..and you could ask the Kurds just how many people "one measly shell" can kill. They should be able to give you some good figures...well, the ones that are left anyway.

Then again - maybe you're right. Maybe we shouldn't have killed 10,000 people to remove the threat of Saddam Hussein and the possibility of him using these measly shells. Maybe we should have just left him in power and let him continue killing his own citizens without having to use up any of those measly shells. At least then, the U.S.A. wouldn't be condemned for their deaths...well, except for the condemnation we would recieve for taking NO ACTION in the face of such atrocities. :rolleyes: </font>

While this takes some wind out of the argument that WMD's were a lie or a false excuse, let's not make a mountain out of a very small molehill.

Right, lets just wait and see if there's more shells where that one came from.

You have to start somewhere though TL, and any long journey starts with a single step. If we have found this shell in a little under 15 months, just imagine what might be uncovered in the next decade.

i wonder if upon closer inspection you might find a stamp on the side saying "made in the u.s.a."?

Well here's really neat nugget from the original story it seems Pentagon officals were not happy about the news of the WoMD shell being found, was released, because it was Classified. HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM? What other evidence of WoMD's is there that is not being released because it is classified? after all there is rampid conspiracy talk going on amoungst some sectors of this debate worldwide, Lordy they even got films about this or that conspiracy ;) . But there couldn't possibly be a conspiracy to keep what has been found secret, only a conspiracy about what has not been found.

I want some honest thinking going on here. As T.L. has pointed out on many occasions the UN and nearly every gov't in the world agreed Iraq had WoMD's up to right before the U.S.A. attacked. What the UN and the others didn't know was how much, They thought they had an Idea but not an exact figure a rough guess. Let's call that guess "X" The U.S. goes in and finds .2X right off the bat, that leaves .8X still out there. Over the next year they find another .5X. That still leaves .3X out there still unfound and potentially could be used to kill. What seems more reasonable that the U.S. would keep the total classifed, and denies the enemy the information of how much has been found, a very vital piece of Intel, and help keep the troops that are in harms way a little safer. or release every teany tiny bit of info on WoMD's so the rest of the world can "Feel" better about what is being done, while alerting the enemy about what has been found and giving an enemy that's back is against the wall a heads up. An enemy that has clearly shown by it's current and past actions to have little reguard for Human life. Anybody ever heard of the USE IT OR LOSE IT philosophy?

You people can make the call, but just chew on it:
One hand not wanting Intel to get out to save lives or what ever reason that rattles arround in the heads of spooks(American slang for the intel community). On the other hand letting Intel out to make people "Feel" better but giving the enemy the heads up, on vital intel.

[ 05-18-2004, 08:04 PM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

Ok, Ole offender of the offactory senses,
So the numders are 10,000 and 10. Well would it make you feel any better if only 9,999 were killed and the shell could kill 11? I can play this game all day long [img]smile.gif[/img] but that still doesn't change that it seems a shell has been found, when so many were shouting from the mountain tops that NOTHING HAS BEEN FOUND. Please show me the math were 1 = 0. ;)
As I have writen admitting a WoMD shell has been found, in no way is agreeing that the war was right, it only destroys the agruement that there were no WoMD's. I wasn't the one that has latched onto that arguement and logic, who has built their house on that now seemingly shaky foundation. In fact you'll find I've stated there were several reasons given for the War, 7 IIRC. Any number of which were enough for me. My foundation stands unshaken ;)

Old tried worn out arguement that has no shread of evidence. During the Time the U.S.A. was supossed to be exporting those WoMD's(1980's) would you care to venture a guess at who the #1 arms supplier to Iraq was? The U.S.A. ****Wrong**** How about #2? The U.S.A. ****Wrong**** how about #3? the U.S.A ***Wrong*** How about #4? the U.S.A. DingDingDingDing ****Right****

Now for the bonus round:
What percent did the #1 number sell to Iraq?
How about number #2?
How about #3? which countries were they? *Hint* which countries were in the for front against the U.S. lead invasion?
Of those countries which one also have the tech capitabilities to make and sell WoMD's?

Just a few questions to chew on ;)

#1 ... USSR
#2 ... China
#3 ... France

Oh .... and those are post UN sanctions rankings .....

Erm... isn't germany supposed to be in there somewhere. They produced all kinds of gasses, and if i'm not mistaken, sold several agents to Iraq among others.

They are on the list, but not the top suppliers.

The mistruth that Iraq was a immenent threat with military-strike WMD capablity still stands as undisputedly a mistruth- lies and/or errors.

Colin Powell admitted just a few short days ago that his slam dunk presentation at the U.N. before the invasion was almost totally based on false information.

This news about the IED made from an old left-over artillery shell hardly validates the Bush administration's pre-war rhetoric. If anything it accents just how wrong they were. Whether or not they were liars or simply mis-informed remains a topic under investigation and for a different discussion.

Close 2 out of 3 not bad
#1USSR 50%+-(maybe high on USSR it was upper 40's IIRC)
#2France 27%+-
#3Germany 18%+-
#4 U.S.A. 10%+-

[ 05-19-2004, 12:01 AM: Message edited by: John D Harris ]

Ok Chewie pick a date the weapon must have been made by to disqualify it as a WoMD [img]smile.gif[/img] You know what will follow next I'll ask if it was made 1 day earlier, you will disqualify it as a WoMD? I'll nickle and dime you back to the stoneage ;)

Nice try, but the assesment they are liars was in the most part made on the foundation that NO WoMD's had been found. ONE HAS!!!! yet the foundation will not be abandoned while the house crumbles around. Even with the saftey line thrown in: that admitting the existance of a WoMD in Iraq is not the same as admitting the war was right. The WoMD must be somehow nullified.

Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, it's like stealing candy from a baby. I'm just having too much fun remembering the thread started about 6 months ago demanding an apology since No WoMD's had been found yet. IIRC the evil warmongering amoungst us said to give it time but we would have no problem saying they were wrong and there were no WoMD's. because we knew there were more reasons then just WoMD's. IIRC there were even some on the otherside that said if WoMD's were found they'd be doing the apologizing Now I Know this thread is still new so not all have seen it, but I wait with bated breath. ;) [img]smile.gif[/img] :D

Yet another nuget to digest:

"As we know, the Baathist regime had a track record of using" these chemicals against people in Iraq, such as the Kurds, Ziad continued. "He's [Saddam] never kept any commitment he's ever made to the international committee nor to the people" to not use such deadly materials.


Ziad said the United Nations, the World Health Organization and others had not "bothered" to travel to the Iraqi Kurdistan to see the firsthand effects sarin and other chemical weapons had on people and to get proof that Saddam did in fact possess such weapons.

"We have evidence — we have victims of the use of those agents, and we're still waiting for WHO and the U.N. to come investigate," Ziad said.

Where there's smoke, there is fire, my boy! Let's wait a while and see what turns up.

Skunk...skunk....skunk... always spinning it 'your' way.. ;)

How is this relevant?
No, the assessment I make that they are either liars and/or misinformed has nothing to do with whether or not WMDs ever existed in Iraq but if they existed in the capacity that Colin Powell stated in his presentation to the U.N. or if the threat Iraq posed to the me, here in the U.S., was as stated by the President and Vice-President in countless speeches including the SotU address before the war. Any fool knew Saddam had WMD's, but how much, when, and how ready they were to be used is another matter.

Who cares? One little artillery shell that was made into an IED-the people who made this IED seemed to not even know the nature of the shell they used from what I have read, so it's use may not have even been intentional. Go ahead and wait for your apolgies. I have nothing to apologize for. Some old forgotten munitions stored away somewhere and forgotten only to found by insurgents and used unwittingly years later is hardly what I would call an imminent threat to the security of the U.S.

I can see how the Fox news crowd would get all excited about this though. This is the type of small news that can be spun and spun and spun until a mountain is indeed made out of a molehill. It also helps deflect from the smorgasbord of micalculations and failures in Iraq endured by the Bush faithful since major combat operations ceased over a year ago. The folks screaming "we were right" about this does have it's comedic side.

Anyway....

You may gloat all you want at me if it is proven that the pre-war rhetoric matched what is found post-war when it is all said and done. So far it ain't even close.

You people are hilarious! I challenge you to find a post by ANYBODY which claims "Saddam did not have WMD". We know that he had them in the past. The big question was whether they were a threat to us.

They found one shell! There could be any number of reasons why this was left around. It could even have been brought in from elsewhere.

People! I have some straws here! Anyone want to clutch at them?

:D

Absolutely no chance! Virtually everything about this war is now geared to getting Bush re-elected. It's being politicized.

"Stealing candy from a baby"? Actually the analogy I have in mind involves a mythical large box of candy, someone boasting to his skeptical friend he'll be able to pry all of it loose from the old lady whom he suspects owns it, the same guy whining and searching for months on end and finally managing to scrape one measly, half-chewed and downright icky piece of winegum off the carpet, and then doing a "HA! Told you so! You were WRONG, a LIAR!" routine plus embarrassing victory dance in front of his skeptical friend - and the analogy ends with the friend sighing deeply, rolling his eyes and deciding to go out to meet other friends who at least have *some* sense of realistic perspective, even if they may have been looking for the very same box of candy.

Anyways, if this news is truely gloat-worthy to you, then so be it - even though I actually think it's more sad and tragi-comical straw clutching at this point than an actual retortion to those who have been critical of the US's failure in locating the "promised" WMD up to this point.

If I claim that monkeys will fly out of your butt, that'd be a lie, and I'd be a liar. I'd still be a liar, even if monkeys suddenly flew out'a your butt, as I really had no idea that they would...

Didn't Bush kinda, admit that they wasn't all that sure 'bout the WoMDs after all a while back?

Did we go to war for WOWD or "the shell of mass destruction"? I have no problems with finding things - I have always hoped that things would be found that substantiated the call for war. We might have the "Liberating Iraq" call to arms now, but back when we were ready to send in the troops (and I was keen for that) it was on the basis that there would be just shitloads of WOMD. After all - our finest intel said they would be there - didn't it.

I don't discredit the find, but it ain't what George and Johnny and Tony promised me we would find. If this molehill becomes a mountain I will be one happy camper, but until that happens I will not have the gall to be be callin for apologies and gettin into any states of righteous indignation - at the moment it is still a molehill dreaming of being a mountain.

The fact is that finding the damn things is just as much of a suprise to them as it is to us. Even if there were WMDs there they didn't have sufficient evidence to know that and as such the entire war was a gamble from that point of view. But I should also stress before you knock this post down that I've always been against the war WMDs or not, and have made that clear on numerous occasions. Even if everything Bush and Blair said was true I don't think we should have gone to war.

Absolutely no chance! Virtually everything about this war is now geared to getting Bush re-elected. It's being politicized. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=deepskyblue>Absolutely no chance at all? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] I didn't realize you were so knowledgeable on classified intel.

As much as I would LOVE to save this post for future reference, it usually takes 20-25 years for such info to become DE-classified...and I simply don't have your tenacity for saving posts by members to be used months down the road in an effort to embarass them.</font>

You can add my incredulity to Donut's then Cerek, because if Bush had the evidence that he said he would get - the evidence that he told the world would be found - he ain't goin to sit on it and classify it for 25 years and look like a world class drongo. Let's credit him with enough intelligence to rule out that path. I agree that classified material sits undercover for 25 years, but lets not fool ourselves. The alliance has been under pressure from day 1 to produce the proof that backs up their pre-invasion beliefs. To have people believe that they would classify now, when their intent at every turn thus far has been to run to the press beggars belief. I would be more inclined to consider that the intel people classified it because they wanted to be sure before if became news - let's face it they have jumped up and cried wolf a few times already over the past 12 months.

Cheers to everyone for a fine performance so far. We're all doing really well sticking to our scripts. Okay -- break a leg out there!

[ 05-19-2004, 11:21 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Absolutely no chance! Virtually everything about this war is now geared to getting Bush re-elected. It's being politicized. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=deepskyblue>Absolutely no chance at all? [img]graemlins/wow.gif[/img] I didn't realize you were so knowledgeable on classified intel.

As much as I would LOVE to save this post for future reference, it usually takes 20-25 years for such info to become DE-classified...and I simply don't have your tenacity for saving posts by members to be used months down the road in an effort to embarass them.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]LOL Cerek you should try it - it's very satisfying albeit often too easy. I expect the "about time you all apologised thread to be re-run any time now.

I'm not one of the spy types on IW but I know how politicians work. This intel was leaked because they think it will make Bush look good. That's how I'm CERTAIN that there is no previous find. I'm happy to enlighten you at any time.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">So if they find The Pandora's box, or some other legendary artifact with WoMD potential under some sand will that be considered WoMD that were what they went to war for? I don't think that finding something that has probably been lost for 20 or 30 years in the sand in some forgotten war was the WoMD's that Bush was wanting to find or stressing over. The Republicans are being ridiculous to use that find has justification to kill peoples children.</font>

[ 05-19-2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

To stick up for the anti-war crowd on this point I'd have to say that if it ain't broke don't fix it. We're not arguing this point because of the peculiar degenerative mental conditions we all have (or at least I'm not ;) ) but because we actually think we're right. I know its hard to grasp that, what with us disagreeing with you and everything, but its true I'm afraid. This doesn't change our attitude to the war as it doesn't affect the original arguments we put up against the war.

Thats our excuse. Whats yours? [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color=deepskyblue>Yes...I'm sure it is. [img]graemlins/dontknowaboutyou.gif[/img] </font>

<font color=deepskyblue>Don't hold your breath. I seriously doubt it will be from the source you're "anticipating" if it does occur.</font>

<font color=deepskyblue>LOL. I'll be waiting with baited breath. :rolleyes: </font>

And besides all that... it wasn't a weapon they found, it was ammunition. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

One can easily use this shell in a terroristic act. Artillery is only a tool of delivery. I believe that we will find relativly few shells in iraq. In syria though... :D

Many a critic said "none were found-> he destroyed them all". Well, the critics are wrong.

[ 05-19-2004, 02:09 PM: Message edited by: Black Baron ]

I agree with Black Baron and JDH on that part johnny - the shell counts as a WOMD. It looks to be a verified find this time. In no way am I disputing that - I only dispute the size of the "mountain" [img]smile.gif[/img] .

My comment was in jest, relax. :D

I'm one of the people that believe there were, and probably still are much more of those things. He used them in the past, the whole world was a whitness, and i simply don't think of Saddam as someone who would voluntarily give up his arsenal just because the outside world wants him to. I just don't see any reason to start festivities now that they found a rotten firecracker, seems a bit childish to me.

I could easily use a butter knife in a terroristic act.
(NOTE TO GOVERNMENT: I am loyal American citizen. I would never do such a thing.)

I, personally, am shocked that this was found. I was under the impression that the Iraqi government was a well-oiled machine that kept meticulous records of everything it did a decade ago.

Yes you can use the knife in a terroristic act. You even will kill 1-2 people with it. The sarin gas will kill 100 people, at the very least.


Now about the well oiled machine. If you want to destroy every WoMD you can. You have numbers of how much did you produce and where. Piece of cake to someone that wants to do it.

Our problem is that USA looks for things and fights there. They lack the experience, they lack the knowledge, so their findings are too few and too seldom. Give them a few more years (or our instructors) than we will see results in monthes.