Well here in Europe it is already the first of may, so the new countries are joining today. (along with Hungary!! [img]smile.gif[/img] )

What do you think this enlargement will bring for Europe and the rest of the world?

I won't post an article. If you want to see any just go to a news site and you should be able to find several.

<- me: looks at the european union and ponders bi-superpower world again...

Then look at China and imagine the wonders of the tri-superpower world.

I think it's a good idea although everyone here is worried about immigrants. I don't see what the problem is as most countries in western Europe (especially Scotland) have falling populations so we need a good old influx of immigrants. So I've been told in my Modern studies class.

[ 05-01-2004, 04:12 AM: Message edited by: General Nosaj ]

I think this will benefit us in the long run. Besides, recent government studies have indicated that the flow of immigrants into The Netherlands won't be as bad as people feared.

You've got to be kidding! Government studies have been *desperate* to show that immigration won't be as bad as the general populace expects it to be - and frankly, the Dutch government has never been afraid of publishing *clearly biased* reports to prop up an official position.

A recent independent survey in Poland found that 20% of 18-25 year olds planned to move to the 'established' EU states within five years - that doesn't sound like the older member states have 'nothing' to worry about.

I've also heard that most of them regard Holland as the ideal spot to start building up a new existance. I'm afraid they might be a little misinformed, because there are hardly any decent jobs available here, and unemployement is rising each month.

No jobs for them? Let me think, do I hire the ex-east block guy for half the going rate (who is very pleased with the 'massive' salary) or hire the Dutchman... who won't work for less than a fair wage...

I think that they will find jobs even in the Netherlands.

Then look at China and imagine the wonders of the tri-superpower world. </font>[/QUOTE]Then consider India in 50 years joining the party [img]smile.gif[/img]

As far as the UK is concerned, migrants will only be allowed here to work (because we do have a real shortage in industrial skills) and will only be able to claim benefits etc after one year of continuous employment. Healthcare treatment like the NHS will be paid for by their home countries if needed so they still have access to basic medical needs. Existing refugees from these countries will have to find work or will be sent back as now the countries are considered safe enough.

It seems like it shouldn't have that bad an impact on us, even if it was 'last minute' legislation. The biggest threats are the transfer of funding from poverty stricken areas in Old Europe to New Europe and also fiscal management - the EU cannot sustain its current budget especially re agriculture with the new members as well. This makes the upcoming referendum on the new European constitution all the more important of course...

[ 05-01-2004, 07:10 AM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Well, if they're going to prostitute themselves like that, i guess you're right. But don't you think that educated young Polish know how much they can really make ? And that they would still do it for much less than Dutch citizens would, just to get that job ?

Poland must be one giant shithole if they want to leave THAT desperately.

[ 05-01-2004, 07:12 AM: Message edited by: johnny ]

Whether it actually is or isn't is irrelevant. It's whether the kids think it is that counts. It's like New Zealand. Most university graduates can't wait to get out of this isolated, bottom-of-the-world 'shithole' (myself included), just because they want to have an adventure and go somewhere unfamiliar. It's not until they do their OE ('Overseas Experience') to the over-crowded cities of Asia, Europe and America that they realise how nice it is here. Our dollar may be weaker than other Nations, but when you are living here, and everyone is using our money, it doesn't really matter.

heh? india, a superpower? in fifty years?

not happening. china, US and the EU (if it actually forms a nation) have the potential to be/remain superpowers. india is severely lacking in certain aspects that it would need to become a super power.

MAYBE in 50 years we will see india as a world power, but not until they fix a few issues. china, im willing to bet, will remain only a world power until it switches to democracy and the EU wont even be a power until it becomes a legitimate government over the "nation" of europe.

at which point, america is going to have to buy mexico and send a platoon up to invade canada in order to keep in the runnings.

Regardless of how many people are willing to move here, we won't allow more then 22 000 in. Of course, I've been told there are about 40 000 people already in The Netherlands.

Hm.. the BBC has opened a message board about the European Enlargement. A few interesting opinions there. It can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/talking_point/3660227.stm

[ 05-01-2004, 04:55 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]

Unemployment in Poland is very HIGH. I don't have figures for Poland, but how about some statistics for another new EU member, Lithuania:


1. Average earnings in Lithuania (pop: 3.6m) = $4,800 (4,000 EUR) per YEAR
2. Unemployment = 10% (officially), (unofficial estimates have it more like 25%)
3. Social security - only available for six months at a massive $150 eur per month (you must work before you can get this, so young people out of university may not apply). No housing benefits either
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0...208786,00.html

The word 's-hole' is a bit strong, but it is clearly disadvantaged, and if you are young and have brains, you are going to migrate as soon as possible. Afterall, you get more on the dole in the Netherlands/UK/Germany than the average person earns from working in Lithuania and a job paying the minimum wage in the Netherlands is still 3.5 times higher than the average wage in Lithuania...

And for those Lithuanians who do not come (along with the nine other countries), their relative poverty will take the lion's share of EU financing (development aid/economic assistance etc.) for years and years to come.

22.000 is 22.000 too many. Why would we wanna import Polish workers, when there's hundreds of thousands of people already living on welfare ? And where will they live ? Isn't there a huge waitinglist for people who seek a house ? I know there is, because i'm on it myself.

They won't be doing the decent jobs, they'll be doing the jobs we won't do.

They won't be doing the decent jobs, they'll be doing the jobs we won't do. </font>[/QUOTE]We're talking about educated people, aren't we ? Do you really think they would come all the way down here to clean our toilets ? There's plenty of jobs like that where they come from i reckon, so they must be coming here looking for something better. Why else did they get an education ?

22.000 is 22.000 too many. Why would we wanna import Polish workers, when there's hundreds of thousands of people already living on welfare ? And where will they live ? Isn't there a huge waitinglist for people who seek a house ? I know there is, because i'm on it myself. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color="#C4C1CA">The public housing system works the same here as in (almost) every other EU country - those with the greatest needs are allocated housing first, no matter how long they have been on the waiting list.

Thus, if I arrive in NL with my family in tow and claim 'homelessness', then I have a right to go to the TOP OF THE LIST - meaning that people who have waited for a long time are shoved that much further back in the queue:
My wife waited for <u>15 years without getting a home!</u> before meeting me and then having enough money to buy.

Right now Den Haag, Amsterdam and Rotterdam, gain an additional <u>30,000</u> immigrant residents per year between them from Morroco and Turkey alone - that's why the waiting lists are so long. Imagine the extra pressure from new EU-states and it won't be worth being on the list (is it worth bothering with now?)

And whether we want east-block workers is irrelevant, as they now have a RIGHT to come, regardless of whether that is desirable.
</font>

<font color="#C4C1CA">
Correction - they'll be doing the decent jobs without the decent wage, resulting in a downward wage spiral as market forces kick in.

Business leaders are rubbing their hands at the chances to reduce their payroll overheads, ex-east block workers are rubbing their hands at the thought of doubling their incomes and the existing workers in established EU countries are going to have to accept pay cuts and wage-rise freezes if they want to keep their jobs after the immigration restriction periods end. :(

You don't really think that a Polish business grad, software engineer or college educated kid is going to clean toilets in waterloo station, do you? You not really suggesting that a carpenter, bricklayer, mechanic is going to settle for cleaning pots and pans in a restaurant?
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[ 05-04-2004, 07:43 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

To the dutch-men in here...

I think your situation in Holland is worse than in the rest of EU...since there is a LOT of imigrants in holland to start with.
I remember the news telling about Piet Van sumthin ( that plitician that was killed )and they always marked him as a fanatic and a rascist...for some weird reason, I just keep thinking that he might have had the best grap on realities in the dutch political system thus far.

Anyway...in Denmark there is the usual hype about polish youngsters stealing work from danish people...and I suppose that the risk is serious...but to be frank...I am not going into the field and harvesting carrots and cucumbers so if the farmer wants to hire cheap polish labour for that he has my blessing....it might even make him competative against the new farms from the east.
The highly educated people ( of whom I am not one ) will probally have little to fear, since there have been a flux between the countries on these positions in advance.

What we have to think about is that this migration-period we are living in is fairly new and that the world is an ever-changing place...surely it is happening a LOT faster today with airplanes, boats and cars...what I am getting at is that just 50 years ago this migration was not happening...with the sole exception of USA...everyone wanted to go there and did so!

My point being...in the future...with the mix and flux of nationalities we might indeed see EU turn into the superpower that equals USA.
I think that India and China will follow closely after, China is a place of opportunities at the moment and India is in the proces of turning into a "wealthy" country.

What we really need to look out for, is the constant threat of the smaller states around the world...the threat-assesment of the world has changed over the last two decades.
From having two superpowers fighting in the shadows to having smaller threats fighting in the open with the superpowers...i.e. Tjetinia and Iraq gives us all a certain amount of insecurity...EU does not have these issues at the current moment...of course we have some involvement in Iraq...but certanly not on an EU-plane of decision.


*pheeeeow* a lot of cheap words from the dane

If we pay them 10 times more then they will clean our toilets.

Immigration is so bad. So evil. Why... look at America and Australia. So many immigrants there. Did nothing for the economies or multiculturalism or other cool stuff. They weren't built on immigration were they? All Aussies and Americans are aboriginal aren't they?

And fear. I love fear. I love to sit and wallow about how bad the world is going to be.

Everyone complains about the rain and worries about the flood instead of builing an Ark. ;)

COMPLETELY different situation that has absolutely NO RELATION to the discussion at hand. Or are you saying that the US and Austrailia were both densely populated when immigration first occured and that there is still a wide open door to anyone who wants to come, regardless of whether they have no college degree?

Oh, and as I recall, when the immigrants arrived in the US and Austrailia, they slaughtered/enslaved most of the native populace and stole their land... Perhaps these are not the best examples to give, eh?

[ 05-12-2004, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

Um... actually I spend my time burning Arks -- for a fee. :D

Is it just me or does "EU Enlargement" sound like something you need to see a doctor about?

Immigration hurts -- it's exceedingly painful to the generation that suffers through it. My economics professor told me there would be long-term gains, but other than crappy bilingual math classes taught in Spanglish, I don't see them anywhere in the immediate future.

Yorick is right about the diversity thing -- multiculturalism is and will be continue to be neat for a few generations. Until we all f* each other so much that we become one color, of course. ;) S'okay, I'm doing my part. ;)

COMPLETELY different situation that has absolutely NO RELATION to the discussion at hand. Or are you saying that the US and Austrailia were both densely populated when immigration first occured and that there is still a wide open door to anyone who wants to come, regardless of whether they have no college degree?

Oh, and as I recall, when the immigrants arrived in the US and Austrailia, they slaughtered/enslaved most of the native populace and stole their land... Perhaps these are not the best examples to give, eh? </font>[/QUOTE]Oh I think it's very apt. It's about time Europe reaped what it sowed.

Nonetheless, antiimmigrationism is one short microstep away from RACISM. You're a bigot Skunk. Antisemetic, vocally antiIsrael, and here vocally antiimmigration. What is so bad about Europeans - yes Poles and Czechs are Europeans - moving into your neck of the woods. They're human beings. Your distaste for your fellow man is appalling.

I brought up Australia and America as nations where immigrancy - Mexicans continue to pour into America, and Vietnamese pour into Australia - is STILL providing positive benefits to the two nations.

I for one am against borders entirely. You go down to El Paso/Cuidad Juarez. Over an imaginary line, you have millions who want to cross it, and other humans who won't let them. Yet the land features are the same either side of this imaginary line. Bizzarre when you break it down.

In any case, property prices and rent are natural inhibitors. Neigbourhoods in NYC change accross a street. You'll keep your rich western European life skunk, while the poor Poles come in to do the shit jobs and live in the shit neighbourhoods, and yet be grateful. Give them a ■■■■■■■ break and lose the elitism.

[quote]Originally posted by Skunk:

Quote:

Originally posted by johnny: [qb] Correction - they'll be doing the decent jobs without the decent wage, resulting in a downward wage spiral as market forces kick in. Business leaders are rubbing their hands at the chances to reduce their payroll overheads, ex-east block workers are rubbing their hands at the thought of doubling their incomes and the existing workers in established EU countries are going to have to accept pay cuts and wage-rise freezes if they want to keep their jobs after the immigration restriction periods end. :( You don't really think that a Polish business grad, software engineer or college educated kid is going to clean toilets in waterloo station, do you? You not really suggesting that a carpenter, bricklayer, mechanic is going to settle for cleaning pots and pans in a restaurant? </font>

This completely ignores precedented reality. REALITY. Skunk, you never post proof. Never. Your views are based on delusion.

The number of times I have run into DOCTORS. University trained specialists from India, Pakistan or the Philipines, doing "menial" work outside their chosen field is so commonplace it;s not funny. Australian wages haven't gone on a downward spiral. Even if they did, you have a government than can decree wage minimums.

Polish business grads - based on real PRECEDENTS - will take on whatever menial work they can if it pays more than what they would earn at home. Be that waiting tables, kitchenhand work or whatever.

Again, your elitism is sickening. What is wrong with cleaning toilets? It's a job. If it puts food on a table, and puts a child through school who cares? People are more than their job. Power to them Someone has to clean toilets. I'm very grateful to the Chinese lady that cleans the toilets where I work. She's happy for the money, I'm glad she does the job. It makes the world go round.

"It's a dirty job but someones gotta do it".

Skunk, I probably agree with you about the immigration issues more than I do on most topics. But, it's interesting to note your vehement compassion for the lesser peoples of the planet ends at your country's borders. ;)

The poor huddled masses. Let's help them!

Oh... but don't invite them over! Keep them in their hellholes! Let's just rant about injustice rather than actually do anything remotely resembling generosity of spirit.

<font color="#C4C1CA">
Which is what?
</font>


<font color="#C4C1CA">
Well for a start I'm not against immigration. But I am pro-immigration control. No economy can afford to simply throw open its doors to all and sundry without suffering ruination. You would be *very* challenged to find any country in the world that does not have such a policy - and to suggest that immigration control is racist is label every country in the world as racist - and as such, just plain daft.
</font>

<font color="#C4C1CA">
Read the forum rules before you make statements like that.
</font>

<font color="#C4C1CA">
Austrailia is desperately attempting to limit the flow of immigrants into the country using questionable tactics (see: http://www.refugeesaustralia.org ) as a way of deterring would be migrants. Such is the damage to the economy that an unrestricted flow represents.

The United states is also seeing problems from the ever increasing <u>uncontrolled</u> flow of Mexicans - esp. social problems (see: http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...CLE_ID=25920).
</font>

<font color="#C4C1CA">
Or in other words, the immigrants can live in shanty towns on the edge of the city, cleaning your toilet, eh? How generous!
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<font color="#C4C1CA">
If you are not allowed to work in your profession by the immigration authorities or suffer from a racist atmosphere where 'the guy from the eastern block aint good enough to work here', then yes I imagine that they will take whatever work they can find - but Europe isn't like that.
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<font color="#C4C1CA">
Sheer pragmatism - it serves neither country's best interests.

Many EU states are already fighting a losing economic battle as it is, and workers are already been shafted - extra unskilled/semi-skilled workers are not required and professionals are only useful in small numbers for specific industries.

For the originating countries, the problems are even more severe.
For the countries to develop, they *need* the unskilled/semi-skilled workers to drive industry. And as for the professionally trained - the cost of training say, a doctor represents an *ENORMOUS* investment - which is then lost to the country when the worker leaves.
And so those left behind are further impoverished by the outward migration.

It's far better to assist those countries to develop with development aid (as indeed the US Government has been doing successfully for many years via USAID - resulting in an ever growing level improvement in a long list of countries [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] )

Better that than to have them move from one 'hell-hole' to another. Better to have doctors working as doctors in their own county than have all that investment wasted as they clean some rich person's toilet instead...
</font>

And besides, there's plenty of people here who can clean those toilets, except they don't want that. Instead they choose to stay home and live on welfare, the easy way out. I have nothing against Polish people who go abroad in search of jobs, but they need to clean out our own list of unemployeds first, before they bring in any new FUTURE unemployeds. Not to mention the ever growing list of people who simulate handicaps and illness. Once that's all sorted out, and there's still need of foreigners to fill the gaps in the economy, they're welcome as far as i'm concerned. Otherwise i can't think of anything why we should let them in.

Because it's the same nation? Sorry... will be the same nation.

"The United States of Europe" isn't it. ;) :D

<font color="#C4C1CA">
Which is what?
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]As I responded to your comments on European colonialism/imperialism, that would be immigration. A movement of peoples into your neck of the woods.


Well for a start I'm not against immigration. But I am pro-immigration control. </font>[/QUOTE]Er.... that would mean you are anti-immigration.

In any case your views here are pretty well clear. You're a racist who wants to keep the Poles away from your neighbourhood. Pretty clear where you sit from where I stand.


Who's talking economics? I'm not. I simply said that open-door immigration built the federations of America and Australia. Economic sense, and human compassion do not always marry. It may not make economic sense to let the boatpeople or war refugees, or starving jobseekers into your country, but it sure is immoral to turn them away. I'm not arguing an economic case, though I am pointing out the realities of the rapid development that flows from immigration. From demand of services, to manpower.

As Timber pointed out, you have an interesting set of double standards there Skunk.

It shouldn't be insulting to you. They're your views your espousing. You're preaching discrimination. "Stay at home immigrant". Racist bigot parties like "One Nation" in Australia preach the same thing.

I am well aware of the immigration issues with both countries, having lived in both. I am also aware of the arguments in government circles arguing FOR greater immigration.

States like Tenessee turn a blind eye to the Mexican immigrancy issue precisely because of the economic blessing they are.

Er... no, an immigrant lives in my house and cleans my toilet. That would be me. I am not American.

As far as the Chinese immigrant who cleans the toilets at work, she's a blessing. Someone has to do the job.

Unless you're suggesting the job shouldn;t get done, or that somehow humans who do these jobs are lesser than those who don't?


Oh yes it is. Certain qualifications don't transfer across languages and cultures. Even from Western nation to Western nation if regulational laws are different.

Because it's the same nation? Sorry... will be the same nation.

"The United States of Europe" isn't it. ;) :D </font>[/QUOTE]Good point, but it's more a group of nations working together economically. We are and never will be one people, there's just too many differences, and i'm not just talking about the language. We would do better to invest in the Polish economy, so they can create jobs of their own, instead of inviting 22.000 well educated Polish who are willing to work for half the salary a Dutchman would make. That isn't fair to our own well educated people, who all have high hopes of good jobs. After all, that's what they've studied for. It would be bitter if next years college graduates can't find jobs, because they are taken by eastern Europeans who are willing to do the same job for much less.

That's not helping eachother economically, that's asking for trouble, creating intolerance.

Then look at China and imagine the wonders of the tri-superpower world. </font>[/QUOTE]If they ever get around to developing transport systems sufficient to move their army out of SE asia, then we'll have a problem. Until then China's just a mad old hermit who waves his old Hawkins rifle at strangers.

I doubt the EU is going to go head-to-head in a bipartisan war of egos with the US. No one's putting up with that shit TWICE in 100 years. Would be kinda fun from one angle, but totally unacceptable from the other, more perceptive angle.

Did you move to America recently??? ;)

Did you move to America recently??? ;) </font>[/QUOTE]I wish. :D

Hmmmm. That sounds like the United States of America... You may need a little thing called "European Patriotism" to unite you all.

Europe's unification ios probably inevitable. History is repeating
if
Europe = The German Empire
then
Germany = Prussia,
England = Austria,
France = Bavaria.

England could, like Austria, get left out of the eventual union for example.

As for Poles... loads of them came over to America. Helped build the country into what it is. I know some very wonderful Polish-Americans. [img]smile.gif[/img]

So a mad old Hermit kept your boys out of Vietnam and Korea did they? That was when they were slumbering. Now the Dragon is waking up.

Quote:

I doubt the EU is going to go head-to-head in a bipartisan war of egos with the US. No one's putting up with that shit TWICE in 100 years. Would be kinda fun from one angle, but totally unacceptable from the other, more perceptive angle.

They already are. Economically they already have. Like England going head to head with Holland economically when she first started becoming a mercantile sea power, let's hope it doesn't spill into arms.

Hmmmm. That sounds like the United States of America... You may need a little thing called "European Patriotism" to unite you all.

Europe's unification ios probably inevitable. History is repeating
if
Europe = The German Empire
then
Germany = Prussia,
England = Austria,
France = Bavaria.

England could, like Austria, get left out of the eventual union for example.

As for Poles... loads of them came over to America. Helped build the country into what it is. I know some very wonderful Polish-Americans. [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>[/QUOTE]You can't compare the US with Europe, not in any way. The Europeans who went there, all shared the same dream, and together they created what the US is today. Europeans have been at eachothers throats for as long as europe exists, varying from minor annoyances, to pure hatred. I don't believe there are two states in the US who have the same relationship as Greece and Turkey, just to name one. But there are more, such as the Croats and the Serbs. Those people don't just not like eachother, they are willing to kill eachother. Can you name two factions in the US who are willing to go that far ?

And another example of how diverse Europe is, is Spain. Within Spain you have several groups who would like nothing more than to seperate from Madrid, the Basks and the Catalans. Think of Spain as an example for the rest of Europe, a small powerful group tries to unite the whole thing, while the majority simply hates eachothers guts.

Too many things have happened in the past, things that won't be put aside that easily. I wish it was that simple, but it isn't.

Luckily, people do have the ability to change over time. France and Germany for example. Through out the course of history, they've been at each others throats. In fact, Two World wars were the result of their hatred for each other (with WWII being the aftermath of WWI). Now, they're each others closest allies. I'm not saying things are simple. But such changes are not impossible. Only improbably. Besides, we don't have to become 'One Europe' the work closely together. Everyone can keep their national identity.

[ 05-15-2004, 05:23 PM: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]