http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/video/40...8_myrie_vi.ram

(real media stream)

Can't really think of a comment for this, it speaks for itself. Also witness the common practice of sensory deprivation amongst Iraqi's in the streets, plus of course the stories of torture coming from guantanemo.

Not particularly looking to start a debate on this one (maybe it'll be spontaneous [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) but it's current and an important event, so here it goes [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 04-29-2004, 08:01 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

[img]graemlins/uhoh1.gif[/img] Yeah, well, isolated incident or not, it doesn't look good, does it. The obvious comeback is that Iraqi soldiers were guilty of much more heinous war crimes, but two wrongs don't make a right. Apparently six soldiers are being courtmartialled for these hijinks, but these pics will do wonders for regional trust and unity, eh. :rolleyes:

actually, memnoch, the obvious come back would probably go more along the lines of "no torture actually occurred."

the courts martial will probably send those soldiers home, but realize that the "torture" those people were put through doesnt even amount to one day in the life of any american POW's in vietnam. last time i checked, it isnt against the geneva convention to scare the crap out of a prisoner and make them think you'll torture them, only to actual things which will cause harm.

although, i agree, for regional stability and healthy public relations, these soldiers should not have done this, shouldnt have taken pictures, and should be courtsmartialed and sent home.

Sorry, my realplayer is busted (access issues/firewall, etc. with my firm) -- so I'll just have to imagine it. Wish I could view it.

It is against the Geneva Convention to subject prisoners to "degrading or humiliating treatment" however. Some of the pictures now being shown (that were blanked out in the clip) have two marines doing a thumbs-up for the cameras beside a heap of what looks like 10 naked iraqi's made to lie on top of each other.

But seriously promethius, if we forget regional stability and public relations for the moment, you would consider that kind of behaviour acceptable in a marine?

We should perhaps remember the American outrage over the footage of the three US pow's shown (fully clothed i might add) on television. Imagine if the situation was reversed, and those were American prisoners and Iraqi guards...I can't help thinking that your stance might be a little different then.

What i'm really amazed at is the media censorship going on in the US though. Despite it being front page news across the entire world, in the US only one newspaper carried the story, and that was only a local one because most of the marines were from that area. On CNN.com you have to hunt really hard to find it, and I can't see it on abcnews.com at all.

[EDIT] Just for you Timber [img]smile.gif[/img]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/rdon...18DE54510B.jpg

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/image...nergrab203.jpg

I can't find anymore individual pictures than that, they're all in video I'm afraid. [/EDIT]

[ 04-30-2004, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

And for promethius, the relevent article of the geneva convention. Note the reference to 'intimidation,' 'public curiosity' and 'humane treatment.'

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment
of Prisoners of War

Adopted on 12 August 1949

Article 13


"Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention. In particular, no prisoner of war may be subjected to physical mutilation or to medical or scientific experiments of any kind which are not justified by the medical, dental or hospital treatment of the prisoner concerned and carried out in his interest.

"Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.

"Measures of reprisal against prisoners of war are prohibited."

[ 04-30-2004, 12:49 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

Thanks for the images. Enough to whet my appetite to see more, but not enough for me to really comment yet. Still, much appreciated.

Bush "disgusted" over Iraq abuse

President George W Bush says he shares the widespread international revulsion at the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by US guards at a notorious Baghdad jail.
As the graphic pictures were beamed across the world, Mr Bush said he was disgusted and vowed that those responsible would be "taken care of".

One of the images shows a hooded and naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals.

Last month, the US army suspended 17 soldiers over alleged prisoner abuses.

Elsewhere in Iraq, US marines have begun withdrawing from the Iraqi city of Falluja after a month of bloody clashes with rebels.
Two battalions have been pulling back from front-line positions and are set to move further out during the day.

A new Iraqi force, led by one of Saddam Hussein's former generals, is expected to move into the city while the US maintains a presence outside the flashpoint city.

Slow reaction

Six soldiers - including a brigadier general - are facing court martial in Iraq, and a possible prison term over the POW pictures taken at the notorious Abu Ghraib detention facility in Baghdad and broadcasts by CBS television on Thursday.

The naked prisoner standing on a box with wires attached to his genitals was told that if he fell off the box, he would be electrocuted, CBS said.

Another image shows naked prisoners being forced to simulate sex acts. In another, a female soldier, with a cigarette in her mouth, simulates holding a gun and pointing at a naked Iraqi's genitals.

CBS News said it delayed the broadcast for two weeks after a request from the Pentagon due to the tensions in Iraq.

"I shared a deep disgust that those prisoners were treated the way they were treated. I didn't like it one bit," President Bush said in Washington.

The people who are alleged to have carried out the abuse "do not reflect the nature of men and women we sent overseas", Mr Bush added.

"That's not the way we do things in America."

The pictures did not initially cause much of a stir in America.

This is partly because any criticism of US troops while they are dying in Iraq is liable to be extremely unpopular in the US, says the BBC's Justin Webb in Washington.

The political debate in America has turned now to the issue of the numbers of US soldiers dying in Iraq.
ABC's Nightline, an influential evening current affairs television programme, is to hold a reading tonight of all the names of the American dead.

Politicians in Britain and the Middle East have expressed disgust at the images.

A spokesman for UK Prime Minister Tony Blair said he was "appalled" and described the incident as regrettable.

Adnan Al-Pachachi, a member of the Iraqi Governing Council, said it would create a great deal of anger and discontent among Iraqis already concerned about security in the country.

But he rejected a comparison with the treatment of prisoners at Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad during the days of Saddam Hussein.

"I don't think you can compare the two. Saddam Hussein's prisoners were not only tortured but executed. It was much worse than what is there now."

One of the suspended soldiers, Staff Sergeant Chip Frederick, said the way the army ran the prison had led to the abuse.

"We had no support, no training whatsoever. And I kept asking my chain of command for certain things... like rules and regulations," he told CBS. "It just wasn't happening."

[Source: BBC]

shamrock, i think you misunderstand...

what i was saying is that the geneva convention violation is debateable, but i still advocate the courtsmarshal for the offenders. i dont think what they did was right, but when compared to the torture that other countries employ, its not going to be labelled a violation of the geneva convention.

New photos show British soldiers torturing Iraqi

The British army has ordered an investigation of the abuse of an Iraqi prisoner at the hands of British soldiers. The Daily Mirror newspaper published eight photos on Friday showing a blindfolded man being kicked and beaten. The newspaper says it got the photos from two British soldiers involved in the incident.

The publication of the photos is deeply embarrassing for Prime Minister Tony Blair. Hours earlier, he strongly condemned the US soldiers who tortured Iraqi prisoners. He then had to repeat the condemnation, but this time about his own soldiers.

(rnw.nl)

Ah, I apologise my friend, was reading between the lines and got it wrong.

And that's terrible news Dreamer, one of them said "We are not helping ourselves out there. We are never going to get them on our side. We are fighting a losing war." It doesn't bode well for the future.

Me and a German friend were discussing this, and he had to do National Service of course and reckons that behaviour like this is inevitable given the training that occurs in the army.

heh, it appears the brittish 'policy' isnt so much better than the american 'policy'.

well, at least americans soldiers by and large support the war. if the media can hunt around until they find one willing schmuck to support their agenda, then thats fine with me, but i feel bad for the decieved american public.

somedays i wish the media was controlled by some outside source... but who would do it without SOME agenda?

I think we should hold fire on the British photos. There are some inconsistencies in them.

I bet the family of this woman are real proud of her

However, let's keep this in perspective.

heh, there are inconsistancies in the american photos too, but that didnt matter so long as it wasnt the brittish was it?

what a double standard. both groups, the brittish and the americans should be put to the appropriate trials and be sentenced for them through their own nations military justice.

i still dont get how if someone says american soldiers everyone jumps on the bandwagon, and when they say british soldiers everyone feels sorry or doesnt beleive it. flipping double standards...

heh, there are inconsistancies in the american photos too, but that didnt matter so long as it wasnt the brittish was it?

what a double standard. both groups, the brittish and the americans should be put to the appropriate trials and be sentenced for them through their own nations military justice.

i still dont get how if someone says american soldiers everyone jumps on the bandwagon, and when they say british soldiers everyone feels sorry or doesnt beleive it. flipping double standards... </font>[/QUOTE]What are the inconsistencies in the American ones? According to Amnesty International they had already informed the military this was going on.

As for the British ones, they are rather large inconsistencies: the rifles shown weren't issued to Iraqi troops, the hats weren't worn; only beret's or helmets in Iraq, the truck shown also wasn't sent to Iraq. The prisoner doesn't have any bruises/mud/blood on him which you would expect after an extended beating.

As for double standards, this is surely only natural? As an american you will always be rooting for american troops, whilst as a brit i will always be hoping that our guys shine out there.

It is present within the armies as well - the British think that the US army is too unsubtle and brutal with not enough experience in this kind of operation, whilst the US thinks that the British aren't firm enough eg their willingness to deal with former army officers (although a practice that the US has now adopted).

I think this is inevitable when you have two countries that both have a different way of doing things working side by side...it's not something that anyone should get too hung up over as the important thing is that we're both working towards the same goal. The US and Britain are two very different countries so it's only natural that there will be disagreements.

As for the media double-standards this is again understandable. If you read arabic media then you will see stories of American brutality towards Iraqi's almost on a daily basis whereas British troops never seem to feature as much. I'm sure that the different political climate in southern Iraq has allowed the Brits to be less heavy handed (rather than the 'softly-softly' approach making things calmer by itself) but I would imagine that is the reason for the different media stances.

I'm right with you there, but only in an ideal world i guess :( . I suppose the best we can do is combine lots of sources and hope to arrive at a representative view.

Myself, i use www.cnn.com and www.abcnews.com for the American view,
http://news.bbc.co.uk and www.telegraph.co.uk for the British view and http://english.aljazeera.net for the Arabic view.

[ 05-02-2004, 12:36 PM: Message edited by: shamrock_uk ]

heh, there are inconsistancies in the american photos too, but that didnt matter so long as it wasnt the brittish was it?

what a double standard. both groups, the brittish and the americans should be put to the appropriate trials and be sentenced for them through their own nations military justice.

i still dont get how if someone says american soldiers everyone jumps on the bandwagon, and when they say british soldiers everyone feels sorry or doesnt beleive it. flipping double standards... </font>[/QUOTE]Regardless of the authenticity of the British pictures I really liked their reaction to it. Instead of debating around and telling people not to jump to conclusions their first reaction was to send a deeply shocked officer who just stated that the perpetrators "are not fit to wear the queens uniform" Period.
Maybe I'm just biased, but that's exactly the way I want things like this handled.

President Bush and Generals have condemned the acts. I agree -- who couldn't? And, yes, Donut, if she were a part of my family, she'd be an instant black sheep in my eyes.

One of the problems the commanders who were "in the crosshairs" identified was the lack of rules or oversight policies to guide them. While I think some of this is obviously OTT, even for a Jarhead, I still think this is a good point. Our Army/Marine/Military shoud have a general 1-2 page "cheat sheet" of the Geneva and other rules that it hands out to guid commanders.

Oh, I do want to note that in our criminal trials in the US, cases where the police hooked a defendant up to a collander (turned upside down) wired to a Xerox copier and told "if you lie, we will know" ( the phrase "he is lying" was printed on the copier when needed), the confessions resulting from those acts were upheld. In my mind, there is nothing wrong with the police lying to defendants to extract a confession -- it is done all the time (e.g. "your buddy who we arrested said X,Y, and Z").

[ 05-03-2004, 01:47 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

heh, there are inconsistancies in the american photos too, but that didnt matter so long as it wasnt the brittish was it?

what a double standard. both groups, the brittish and the americans should be put to the appropriate trials and be sentenced for them through their own nations military justice.

i still dont get how if someone says american soldiers everyone jumps on the bandwagon, and when they say british soldiers everyone feels sorry or doesnt beleive it. flipping double standards... </font>[/QUOTE]Silly comments promethius. The American soldiers have admitted to it and their faces are shown in the pictures. The BriTish photos show no faces. I'm not saying it doesn't happen with the BriTish army, only that these particular photos are dodgy.

Some serious paranoia showing here.

Link

Ahhh it is so good to see that we have shut down the torture and rape rooms in Iraq. Score one for the good guys!

Random acts of individuals is far different than systemic torture, Rokenn. I'm sure I don't need to point that out to you. The comparison is cute, but warps the issue.

The fact that this torture and humiliation is not systemic (assuming it is not) is not the issue. It is still detrimental to world peace, let alone peace in the region, and it is also indicative of the wider perception of Iraqi's in the eyes of American soldiers. That is not saying that the majority of American soldiers support this kind of thing, but that they are all presented with the reasons for doing so. Does it not worry you that these are the kind of people the army culture is producing? Even if they are being produced in small numbers I'd want to know why personally...

Why? It's obvious. Silver souls are aggressive by nature -- most I've met have a bit of a bully in them. It's the type of person that is drawn to the job that creates these problems. It's why there will be instances of bullying among police forces and warriors everywhere. It's a culture thing.

Sure, bemoan human nature all you want. It is regrettable. But, given a statistically significant number (like the number of troops in Iraq), it is inevitable. The key is that the system must squash it like a bug when it is found -- leaving no question as to what is unacceptable.

You got that right TL.

Now on to the fun for those that are rejoicing in their own minds that the US military did something wrong. I feel it is only right to apply the same standard to them, their countries, their whatever's 6-12 out of 115,000 plus is what .006%. So that is the standard your glee sets. Hmmmmmm JDH wonders to self what the crime rates/Criminal populations are in the world and is willing to bet they far excede .006% of the populations of any country.

You got that right TL.

Now on to the fun for those that are rejoicing in their own minds that the US military did something wrong. I feel it is only right to apply the same standard to them, their countries, their whatever's 6-12 out of 115,000 plus is what .006%. So that is the standard your glee sets. Hmmmmmm JDH wonders to self what the crime rates/Criminal populations are in the world and is willing to bet they far excede .006% of the populations of any country. </font>[/QUOTE]I do agree with you. Although there's frequent reports about police abuse in our media, I have recently witnessed several situations which made me extremely impressed by the professional attitude of our police force. It's always just a small amount of black sheep that give the force a bad name.
However, these are the guys that make the front page and in this case it's a major disaster.
The Iraqi people don't care if it was "just 0.0002%" of their population tortured by "just 0.006%" of the American force.
Like most Americans won't concede that "only 0.001%" of their population were killed by "only 2 lousy Arab terrorists".
I am not comparing these two events on a quality basis, just noting that it makes you mad when you look at a front page stating that fellow countrymen have been killed/tortured/mutilated for no apparent reason. And you don't stop to think that it's only a small number of crazies who did that.

Whoever DID torture this Iraqis will also be responsible for intensified firefights and more casualties on both sides.

Djinn, nice cartoon. Very poignant.

And very true for the "aggressors" ( [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) as well.

Actually it is not only that the job as you say draws bad apples, but more that the job creates bad apples. Go read up on the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment. Where people were randomly assigned the role of 'guard' and 'prisoner' and knew it was all not real. Within 5 days the experiment was cut short and ended because things and spiraled down so quickly. As I recall 3 or 4 of the 'prisoners' had emotional breakdowns due to the experience. Even though all participants had been given extensive psychological tests prior to the experiment to make sure there were no bad eggs or fragile personality types.

NPR also did a show on this just yesterday which had some good discussion in it about the subject.


Here also is a good paper about the experiment and it's fallout (or lack there of)

Haven't time to read those now, but I've seen them before -- I'll check them out a bit later.

When you think about the types of jobs warriors/protectors are asked to perform, you kind of want to draw aggressive personality types. It's not just that those people are drawn to the job, it's also that the job fits certain personality types. It's hard to sort the bad eggs out until something specific happens.

Absolutely wrong. When contractors were massacred, I didn't see any Iraqis on TV trying to apologize for the behavior of their fellows. Yet, we are taking this very seriously in the US -- the president will be addressing Iraq directly on TV (today, I think) about this issue. It may have been a joke, but it's very wrong. I think this thread itself is additional proof.

From The Smoking Gun


Army Report Details Iraqi Prisoner Abuse

MAY 5--Below you'll find a copy of the military investigative report into abuses perpetrated by soldiers working at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad. Prepared by Army Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, the 53-page document details mistreatment of prisoners held in the section of the lockup where some inmates were interrogated. The classified Taguba report, completed in March, concluded that soldiers "committed egregious acts and grave breaches of international law" at Abu Ghraib, where detainees were subjected to assorted sexual and psychological degradations--some of which were photographed by Army jailers.
------------------------------------------------

To download the report (in pdf format) go to The link above or go to The Memory Hole for an HTML version of the report.

[ 05-05-2004, 01:25 PM: Message edited by: Rokenn ]

I can't believe how long that frikkin document is. If I wrote something like that, I would be fired within 24 hours. I can't believe how the government gets wrapped up in its own BS. Federal courts, on the other hand, require you to make a motion to file anything longer than 15 pages. I've heard of judges ripping the last pages off a document and tossing it back at the attorney for violating the rule.

We need more rules about rules. We need bigger gummint, dammit! More, give us MORE!!!

Erm... lesson here, folks. If your document makes you look like an idiot, regardless of how awesome the substance is, you should redesign it.

That's a kick in the balls for the Coalition.

Wow. That really hits home. My current assigment is to train the Reserve Component. Sheez, I wonder what that units Active Component guys feel like after seeing this? Probably not good for their moral either.

<font color="#C4C1CA">These are *not* random acts. There are many of us on these boards who have been pointing to similar humiliations, random punishments and unfair treatment at the hands of the US forces FOR MONTHS. It was not long ago when I posted this article, where a Senior british army officer stated:</font>
"My view and the view of the British chain of command is that the Americans' use of violence is not proportionate and is over-responsive to the threat they are facing. They don't see the Iraqi people the way we see them. They view them as <u>*untermenschen</u>. They are not concerned about the Iraqi loss of life in the way the British are. Their attitude towards the Iraqis is tragic, it's awful."


<font color="#C4C1CA">*untermenschen - literally "sub-human"; the term employed by the nazi's to describe jews, homosexuals etc.</font>

[quote]Originally posted by Rokenn:

Quote:

Actually it is not only that the job as you say draws bad apples, but more that the job creates bad apples. Go read up on the infamous Stanford Prison Experiment. Where people were randomly assigned the role of 'guard' and 'prisoner' and knew it was all not real. Within 5 days the experiment was cut short and ended because things and spiraled down so quickly. As I recall 3 or 4 of the 'prisoners' had emotional breakdowns due to the experience. Even though all participants had been given extensive psychological tests prior to the experiment to make sure there were no bad eggs or fragile personality types. NPR also did a show on this just yesterday which had some good discussion in it about the subject. Here also is a good paper about the experiment and it's fallout (or lack there of)

Very true stuff - I've seen that effect on people in Northern Ireland. The key to avoiding it is fast troop rotation, so that the troops are not there long enough to suffer the effects. Six months was the recommended maximum in a hot zone, and two years for everywhere else.

US troops have been in the hot zone far too long - and the callous disregard for innoncent lives in the tactics ordered by their commanders has only speeded up the need for rotation.

Bush has appeared on Arab TV to attempt to calm the situation. Notably he didn't use the A word or the S word although Rumsfeld used the A word 5 times on his behalf.

Unfortunately Bush's natural facial expression always makes him look as if he's sneering.

[ 05-06-2004, 06:34 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

This is This is an article about the US Military's investigation into the torture. The British Army's investigation is ongoing.


'Sadistic, wanton, criminal abuse'
By Patrick Sawer, Evening Standard
5 May 2004
American troops guarding prisoners in Iraq today stand accused by an internal US army investigation of a shocking catalogue of " sadistic, blatant and wanton criminal abuses".

The allegations follow the revelation that two Iraqi prisoners have been murdered - by a US soldier and a CIA contractor - and another 10 deaths are still being investigated.

Guards at Abu Ghraib prison have abused detainees in at least 20 different ways, according to the report, including examples of beating, sodomising, photographing them naked and forcing male prisoners to wear women's underwear.

The investigation also found that military police took photographs of naked women detainees and that a male guard was reported to have had sex with a female prisoner.

Details of the report have stunned senior US politicians and are expected to have a devastating effect on public opinion in America and throughout the world at a critical time for the coalition forces in Iraq. The US army has admitted to "a complete breakdown of discipline" in the prison. The abuse, by the 800th Military Police Brigade, was "systematic and illegal" and " intentionally perpetrated". The abuse inflicted on prisoners in the cell block by US Military Intelligence includes:

Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees.

Threatening detainees with a loaded 9mm pistol.

Pouring cold water on detainees.

Beating prisoners with a broom handle and chair.

Threatening male detainees with rape.

Allowing a military policeman to stitch the wound of a detainee injured when he was slammed against the wall of his cell.

Sodomising a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broomstick.

Using military dogs to frighten detainees: in one case a detainee was bitten.

The abuse of detainees by military police officers includes:


Forcibly arranging detainees in sexually explicit positions for photographing.

Keeping detainees naked for several days.

Forcing male detainees to wear women's underwear.

Forcing groups of detainees to masturbate while being photographed and videotaped.

Writing "I am a rapist" on the leg of a detainee alleged to have raped a 15-year-old fellow detainee.

Forcing a dog strap or chain around a detainee's neck and photographing him with a woman soldier.
Republican Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist said: "The prisoner abuse is so disgusting, so degrading, that I think humanity has been hurt broadly."

A US army official said a soldier was convicted by military justice of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but not jailed. A private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.

The inquiry, led by Major-General Antonio Taguba, was started at the end of January and reported in secret at the beginning of March. Senior US politicians have been briefed over its contents and congressional hearings are expected to start next week.

Military officials have revealed there have been 35 criminal investigations into claims of prisoner abuse and deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan since December

2002. Ten investigations into deaths and 10 into assaults are under way.

The report outlines at least 20 ways in which US guards abused prisoners and is backed by photographs, confessions and sworn witness statements.

It concludes that soldiers have " committed egregious acts and grave breaches of international law".

SPC Sabrina Harman, of 372nd MP Company, stated in her sworn statement about the incident in which a detainee was placed on a box with wires attached to his fingers, toes and penis and a bag over his head "that her job was to keep detainees awake". She said: "Military Intelligence wanted to get them to talk."

The abuses, which took place in one of Saddam Hussein's most notorious prisons, will cause further outrage in the Arab world and provide a propaganda coup for those arguing the US is an army of occupation.

In response, the American authorities in Baghdad have said they would halve the numbers of prisoners being kept at Abu Ghraib prison to 1,900.

A former detainee at the prison, who claims he was hooded and beaten by US guards, said: " The Americans' behaviour to us was unbearable. With that humiliation they brought Saddam back to our lives."

----------------------------------------

The bit that jumped out at me was "killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock........not jailed" ??

I'm sure the president of Iraq is very sorry 'bout how the army of Iraq massacred them contractors <_<