I've noticed there are quite a few people here who are against gun-control. Personally, I don't think the 2nd Amendment allows you to pack THAT much heat! (Rocket Launchers, Heavy Artillery, MP5, etc.) Here's some experiences that have made me pro-gun control (Note: I don't really give a damn about the issue, I just wanna know what crawled up your butt and died about this issue, I'm just throwing in a few jokes because I can!)

WARNING: THESE JOKES ARE HELLA NASTY!!!

I was down in Texas one time. I come across this young lady with a baby carraige, I look in there and I see the baby looks like a Mini-Rambo! He's got the machine guns in there and everything!

I was up on my roof the other day in my German Leiderhos-- lierderhos -- thingy to do a little yodelling and some freak sends an RPG round right up my ass and I find myself flying around until the rocket runs out of feul at which point, I fall into my neighbor's backyard and he has a dog that was in heat! All I can say is that thank god I had that RPG round up the Wazoo!

just yesterday, Heston of the NRA came over to my bunker. Some little punk took away my "Do Not Solicit If You Want To Live" sign and there were salesmen just rushing the gates to my home. Heston, like the crazyman I always took him for (but really, I don't know him that well, save for that he loves his guns and his right to use 'em!) went out there with this gatling gun about the size of me and mowed them down shouting "Come get some, Damn Dirty Apes!" Now there's body parts all over my front lawn and the entrance of my bunker has a new coat of red paint, if you know what I mean!

This morning, I was balancing an apple on my head and I went out to get my mail which is outside the bunker. Some nutcase shot the apple right off my head with a Springfield Sniper Rifle! "Perfect Aim!" I shouted. He replied with "Perfect aim? I missed!"

And those are the experiences that have made me pro-- *gun shot*

Yeah, we haven't had one of these discussions in at least a week.

Damn, has it been that long? It feels like yesterday.

Believe it or not, an MP5 isn't THAT much heat... If you won't trust your fellow citizen with one, why should you trust your fellow citiznes with one when they're wearing funny clothes?

Funny clothes? Like uniforms? Probably because the funny clothes mean the gun wielder has things like training, discipline and mental control and things like that. Just little things, that mean silly little events like people dying, kids being shot by kids and stuff like that doesn't happen.

Hey... here's an idea... why not allow everyone, no matter how old they are, to drive a car anywhere, as fast as they like, in any lane! Do away with road rules, drink driving laws, age requirements etc.

Because as we al know, car accidents don't kill people, people kill people!

An MP-5 has way more heat that any citizen should have. However, in any environment other than room clearing it is rather eqivalent to a pile left in your yard from a lose dog!

There are times and places for gun control. Out here in the West (God's Country) there is very little. While in NYC there are too many. How do you compromise the difference? I can't answer.

In the arms room I have a Beretta M9, and a Colt M4.
Here at the house my thoughts are different.

I do feel that assault guns are more of a fad than anything else. Have you ever fired an AK? It ain't all that impressive, and needs all that ammo to hit the mark. A high capacity hand gun? Well if you shoot like they do on TV, then you might need many shots!

I was born around guns, and was taught right from wrong when I was old enough to shoot one. I have 20 years of military experience, and really do enjoy the hunt. Be it paper, or critter.

I live in NYC, and there are not enough gun control laws.

Yorick,
NYC has too many gun control laws. One cannot "Legally" own or carry anything in the city. Now, just because it's illegal, doesn't mean it won't happen. But, for 'Law abiding citizens' that is a straight act of un-constitutionalism!
For a fresh look, compare the entire state of Oregon (where we have open carry) VS NYC were guns are flatout outlawed, to the gun related crime rate. I'm betting bling 4to1 odds NYC is greater. Why? Because you'd be a fool to use a gun where every citizen is either packing or has the right to carry. In your adopted city, only 'outlaws' are packing. How to fix? Allow open carry.

And there is the problem. It's the well-armed fools that cause the tragedies.

Many states have carry concealed laws that work well. I know Kentucy has one, and the class you have to take to carry concealed is a really good gun safety and responsibility class. On the other hand, all handguns are illegal in chicago and our death by handguns goes up every year. Responsible ownership is the way to go.

I could be wrong, so I am happy to stand corrected, but is your comparison a case of apples with apples or apples with oranges?

How well I ask does NYC, a place where millions of inhabitants are packed in close proximity, with its racial tensions ("wrong suburb"), economic tensions (not the same as us), homeless rate and underground drug culture stack up against the relatively unsullied widespread beauty of a state like Oregon? I am sure that Portland has its "big city" issues too, but is the mix of the powderkeg and the history of gang culture as strong and prevailing? I don;t even think Portland stands up in a proper comparison to NYC let alone shifting that base to the lower crime rural heartland of the state.

I think where the tensions are highest the rules need to be stricter. I think if you put open slather on guns in NYC the effect wouldn't be that less people would pull them because they are worried who else has them - more people would have them to pull out and more people would be needlessly "blown away".

Let me guess, you still got a beef with me. That's why you're trying to start a riot.

First, I didn't say I was pro-gun control or anti-gun control: To tell you the truth, I could care less about the issue. I don't even have a gun or know anyone else who does.

Second: Whatever beef you have with me. I advise you to let it go. I've changed since then.

Now we return to our regular topic.

Davros:
That was the same exact thought Liberals had a few years back when Florida went open carry. Guess what? Their violent crime, guns in crime has gone down drastically.

And there is the problem. It's the well-armed fools that cause the tragedies. </font>[/QUOTE]This must be the reason NZ has a no gun clause!

I agree that Kentucky has one of the better CC programs. Is a partial open carry state, and also has a lower violent crime, gun related crime rate.

California has a good course for CC, but does not make it easy for Joe citizen to carry. One must have 1Mil in personal insurance once you have passed the course.

I somehow doubt that Yorick had you in mind when he was writing that particular post.

<font color=orange>Tennessee has a pretty good CC permit course as well. Involves both class work and range time. You have to prove you know the law and how to safely use your weapon. Personally, I'm against MOST gun control, but I don't have a problem with an instant background check and even required training in the safe use and storage of a firearm. </font>

MP5 is alot of heat. It's the choice of most CT units around the world for a reason.

You're really missing the more important target. Maybe I should have included a color: BLUE!

You'd be surprised how LITTLE police officers know or are able to handle the firearms they use. They are able to handle MP5s in certain situations, under circumstances I'd rather trust a fellow citizen than a police officer. I don't know how much or how little you've come to absorb the reality of living in America, but our cops are BAD! They're really bad, to the degree that the supreme court has decided they're not directly responsible for our safety nor are they required to protect us. The practical difference between a police officer with a gun and a citizen with a gun is paper thin.

Also, most automotive vehicles are far more dangerous than most firearms. If you've ever handled a pocket pistiol, you'll agree, beyond card table distances, the damn things can't shoot for shit.

As for 'assault weapons.' They're nothing more than semi-automatic rifles that look modern. The laws on the AWBAN of 94 are redundant, and clearly motivated to simply ban guns as a knee-jerk response, rather than an insight gathered from practical experiences and reliable statistics. The same can quite lucidly and logically be said for any gun control law passed in the US. Guy shoots a bunch of unarmed people, ban guns, to stop further maniacs from buying guns illegally. Then some maniac does it again, and what now? Ban something else? Impose regulations on daily life? Install surveillance cameras in homes? It's all tangentially related in the most unpleasant manner conceivable.

Understand that gun control can't get RID of firearms, all it does is make them illegal. That's like making anal sex illegal, concealed carry illegal (some think it's 'only fair' that the list of concealed carriers be released to the public) dope illegal, gay marriages, or most famously, alcohol.

The law CANNOT SAVE YOU! All it can do is define the parameters for which actions contravene the government's recognized authority. It's a question of enforceability, and enforcement. Gun Control is unenforceable in the US. With the presence of manufacturing technology, firearms themselves, and stockpiles of ammunition that last more than 50 years under adverse conditions, there's no way the people who want to do nefarious things with firearms are going to be stopped. New York City has some of the most Draconian gun control in the US, and it also has some of the highest gun crime rates... Kalifornistan is even worse... Ridiculously oppressive laws, in direct violation of the constitution (you can't get around the fact that gun control itself is illegal in the US, moral arguments aside, it's completely illegal, and thusly has no legitimacy) that have no effect in reducing crime. Much ado was made about the least used firearms in crime, and the ban has had no proveable effect whatsoever.

Actually, I think the small design of the MP5, its accuracy (for its barrel length) and reliability (not jamming) are the main reasons it has reached ubiquity. That, and the fact that HK has made so many varieties of the thing, including the MP5SD as well as the various front-grip handle, folding stock, attachable stock and other options.

Actually, I think the small design of the MP5, its accuracy (for its barrel length) and reliability (not jamming) are the main reasons it has reached ubiquity. That, and the fact that HK has made so many varieties of the thing, including the MP5SD as well as the various front-grip handle, folding stock, attachable stock and other options. </font>[/QUOTE]That's right.

I'll say it again. I live in NYC and there are not enough gun laws. You can't just keep saying "there are too many" because I and the voting New Yorkers who support gun laws will always disagree with you.

As for gun related crime... ah.. as has been pointed out, take a look at the population size for starters.

You do understand of course that the city of Miami is in Florida right? The 'Mecca' of machinegun crime and coke smugglers? There's a reason the central location of the 1983 Brian DePalma film in Scarface is Miami, and why the main character is such an animalistic monster. Taken together, it's an effective, if rough cross section of the wave of Cuban criminals of 1980...

Crimes of all sorts skyrocketed. The Florida legislature, in all their wisdom, came to the rather obvious conclusion that there was no way the police presence could even begin to crack the shell of organized crime, so they legalized concealed carry. Crimes of the sort preying on ordinary citizens has gone down faster than the general US average. Taking that into consideration, it can be shown, with a town suffering from some of the most violent cultural clashes in American History (Haitians and Cubans don't get along with eachother, or the Puerto Ricans, or the Caucasians, or other immigrants abroad) that legalizing concealed carry works to the benefit of the populous.

But once again, I don't even have to debate this with you! The Gun Control laws in place are already illegal, and need to be repealed. The fact is, they'll NEVER get a majority enough vote to ammend the constitution that far, you just can't screw with the bill of rights. So they pussyfoot around it by passing 'ordinances' and things which skirt around the law by working over people's ignorance.

There are too many laws Yorick... They just don't do any good! Ever gun-control measure EVER enacted in the US or abroad (that is, in the world in General) was either a serious abuse of individual rights (some laws, if attempted to pass in the US and then enforced would have violated the 2nd, 4th, and 5th ammendments), or completely unenforceable. This is the case in the US. It's like I said, why not put a ban on Snuff Films, anal sex, gay marriages and alcohol while you're at it! We know you can stop those things by legislation! It might be important to note that no one has ever even found a snuff film...

You have to grasp the following concepts fundamental to this argument:

Guns, on their own, are harmless. It takes action to hurt someone with one.

All Gun Control legislation affects only those willing to obey the law. Criminal types will remain untouched by new legislation.

Expanding on that, criminals find new opportunities in banned firearms. Selling silencers, machineguns or ordinary pistols to users in various parts of the world, ordinary citizens and criminals alike are a lucrative market.

The statistics, statements by Organized Crime convicts (including guys like Joe Bananno) and other data, as well as the overall response, support these statemnts.

Nowhere where concealed carry has been legalized has crime with a firearm or such things gone UP!

It is indeed reasonable to demand that citizens carry in some small towns, where there isn't even a police force.

<font color=orange>Well, here we go again! Sometimes, I wish Gun Control debates would be banned like religous debates have been. It's the worst kind of thread for circular arguments. It just becomes this HUGE waste of time. That said CYA!</font>

CYA? You mean CIA! It's all a conspiracy man! They want us to sit around talking about guns and religion so they can steal all our weed....

oh God, that was bad, but I'm gonna post it anyway...

;)

Oblivion, when you are prepared to engage in discussion with an open mind, instead of blindly regurgitating others arguments it will be worthwhile discussing this with you.

Until then, get out of America and go live in a mythical land of gun control like England, Australia, France or practically any other western nation outside the Americas.

Then come back to me and tell me
1.How gun laws don't work
2.How we all live in a dictatorship
3.How crime is rampant because of gun laws.

Until then, you are hypothesising from a sheltered and somewhat naive corner the world, using others arguments instead of personal experience (as per Chewbacca for example).

Until then, adios.

Take a look at the numbers on violent crime after the gun bans in Britain Yorick... Then again, you won't actually bother to argue my points, merely relying on ad hominem tu quoque attacks (a logically fallacious argument, go to forums.firearmsmod.com and tell THEM they're wrong, you'll get a sound thrashing) to drive an emotionally driven viewpoint that concerns itself little with practical reality. Let me ask you this: Did the ban on alcohol in the US work? Even a bit? It worked for a little while, until the gangsters stepped up to the plate and took a few swings at being the brewers/distillers and distributors of America.

Oh, how do we live in a Dictatorship, maybe you didn't notice, but we're getting there...

Patriot Act, Homeland Security Act, Patriot 2, (maybe they're the same thing, but the bits I've read were likely various versions, or Patriot 2 was just another name for the first, as it wasn't on scans or reprints of any documents I'd read) FCC, the new campaign finance law which illegalizes campaign speeches attacking a rival candidate less than 60 days before a vote... We're getting there...

Also consider that the right to trial by jury was on the table to be suspended for material reasons in Britain, with the civil rights of the British citizens a secondary concern.

If I were to move to any European nation, it would be Switzerland. At least they're decent enough folk to realize that human beings are at least as trustworthy as invisible government entities. Besides that, I could always use sound financial advice...

Yorick, you don't seem to understand... Laws don't protect people. That's been established. Human will prevents bad things from happening.

I've already argued (quite effectively) why there are too many laws, and the fact that those laws don't work because they're:

A. Unenforceable
B. Illegal
C. Aimed at the wrong target - Laws affect the law abiding...

Also, maybe you don't watch the news, but I do. I read the news. I read old news. I read trends. I read and watch and listen to a lot of information. You could say I'm a little more 'plugged-in' than most people. I've read as much data on the subject as I can. It all blatantly says that depriving citizens of their right to self defense is nothing more than a knee-jerk feel good response by politicians, and always has been. The results have been the exact opposite, and no amount of scare media or fact-distorting polemicism can change that fact. I'm not talking about Michael Moore, I'm talking about Dianne Feinstein, Charles Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Bill Clinton and in New York exclusively the founders of Project Exile. These people want to ban guns and increase police powers. If worst comes to worst, civil rights will be an alien concept of ages past... To these people, for whom civil order is the only thing that matters (when you're rich and powerful, rights of ordinary people isn't a necessarily high priority, securing your wealth is) the death of freedom isn't a big issue. To me, a man who is unlikely to achieve considerable wealth in his lifetime, I fail to support these ideas. I'd much rather have my freedom, thank you...

<font color=deepskyblue>Sounds good to me. The arguments are circular and the comments become very heated very quickly with members <font color=yellow>flamebaiting</font> or just plain <font color=yellow>flaming</font> each other in general.</font>

It's so emotional because there are so many issues involved. Gun control raises issues regarding safety, crime, freedom, governmental control, ethics, self-sufficiency, and civic responsibility just to name a few. Luckily, there are places in the world you can go if you prefer a different "flavor" on this issue. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img] As long as some states have it, and some don't, at least we can choose to go to the place that suits our fancy. ;)

Yes. Barring changing the whole system, I'll move to Arizona... Barring that, I'll learn a new language and go to Switzerland..

You won't have to learn a new language. All Swiss are taught to be trilingual in school, including English. I had no trouble getting around. [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

All right! So it's Switzerland or Arizona, either place is perfect for me and my inborn physical health problems!

Actually, Oblivion, FYI, all males in Switzerland have compulsory military service continuing until death. Even the older guys still serve -- usually a few weeks a year being guards at embassies or UN locations. It's quite the interesting system, and from my limited knowledge of it I respect it a lot.

Oblivion, I think you've mentioned the gun bans in Britain before, what gun bans ? I would imagine the last time guns were legal over here was around the 1700s, so if thats when you're talking about crime increasing from, then I agree.

But as proved before on this board gun crime in the UK, is still a long way behind gun crime in the states.

This one statement proves that you don't know what you are talking about. Only members of the Swiss armed forces may keep firearms.

And they have to keep them locked away
And they only have a finite amount of ammunition
And the ammunition has to be kept sealed
And it is checked and counted annually
And you can't buy it anywhere

Oblivion - you are totally obsessed with guns. It isn't healthy.

And please don't speak about increased violent crime in the UK without providing facts. There are many reasons for the increase.

[ 03-24-2004, 05:45 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

This one statement proves that you don't know what you are talking about. Only members of the Swiss armed forces may keep firearms.

And they have to keep them locked away
And they only have a finite amount of ammunition
And the ammunition has to be kept sealed
And it is checked and counted annually
And you can't buy it anywhere

Oblivion - you are totally obsessed with guns. It isn't healthy.

And please don't speak about increased violent crime in the UK without providing facts. There are many reasons for the increase. </font>[/QUOTE]<font color=deepskyblue><font color=orange>Donut</font> - Enjoying gun ownership and expecting our government to actually UPHOLD the 2nd Amendment of the Constitution is a far cry from being "totally obsessed with guns".

Many Americans - including myself - enjoy the privilege of gun ownership. While I don't get to do it often, I do thoroughly enjoy doing target practice with my pistols. Also, as <font color=white>Oblivion</font> keeps pointing out, our Constitution specifically grants individuals the right to own guns. I also agree that all gun-control legislation enacted by various state or city gov't entities is nothing more than a knee-jerk reaction to specific incidents..and all of them are at least indirectly in violation of the U.S. Constitution

I'm also growing very tired of seeing members here make insulting and judgemental remarks about others when they disagree with their position on an issue.

When I joined IW 2 years, members here could discuss controversial issues without insulting each other. But I've seen the trend become more and more prevelant in the last year. I've seen members just be outright insulting to those they disagree with instead of trying to offer a good counterargument and I've seen topics completely banned because a handful of members couldn't discuss a particular issue without hurling insults.

All of this has led me to visit here less and less. And the more I browse here, the less change I see. It's the same old topics divided along the same lines. And since all the arguments have been presented before, the threads quickly degenerate into contest of subtle flaming and judgemental accusations.

It's absolutely shameful.</font>

Aww c'mon Cerek, don't be like that. Sit back and enjoy the fireworks ;)

You're well wide of the mark here Cerek. I have no problem with the pro-gun lobby in America. It's your country.

My remark about Oblivion's obsession with guns is not based solely on this thread. If I started a thread on my pressed flower collection Oblivion would find a way to introduce a post on guns. I could count thre number of his posts that don't relate to guns and gun control on the fingers of one hand.

I think you'll find that I haven't argued for or against gun control here. I agree that it's pointless, nobody will change their minds on the subject.

And whilst we're on the subject - you seem to be somewhat judgemental of me in your post.

[ 03-24-2004, 07:31 AM: Message edited by: Donut ]

<font color=deepskyblue>You're entitled to view it that way if you wish.</font>

Donut, I do most of my casual talk at other forums or with other human beings in person. For this reason, I've only posted in a few threads... The HKM4 thread was mainly about government waste, if you didn't get my point. There were numerous superior alternatives to the proposed solution to an alleged problem. The nature of how they've wasted money in that instance is the same as how they waste money anywhere.

Let's not forget that I posted quite a bit a while back, and never mentioned firearms in general, or anything specific.

Donut, you're a judgemental hypocrite.