Oh man, I guess I will have to memorize the travel almanac for my next vacation. I sure won't be holding an Almanac in my hand the next time I "observe" a historic landmark or other place of notable interest.

self-edited out racially sensitive sarcasm.
Link

******************
The FBI is warning police nationwide to be alert for people carrying almanacs, cautioning that the popular reference books covering everything from abbreviations to weather trends could be used for terrorist planning.

In a bulletin sent Christmas Eve to about 18,000 police organizations, the FBI said terrorists may use almanacs "to assist with target selection and pre-operational planning."

It urged officers to watch during searches, traffic stops and other investigations for anyone carrying almanacs, especially if the books are annotated in suspicious ways.

"The practice of researching potential targets is consistent with known methods of al-Qaida and other terrorist organizations that seek to maximize the likelihood of operational success through careful planning," the FBI wrote.

The Associated Press obtained a copy of the bulletin this week and verified its authenticity.

"For local law enforcement, it's just to help give them one more piece of information to raise their suspicions," said David Heyman, a terrorism expert for the Washington-based Center for Strategic and International Studies. "It helps make sure one more bad guy doesn't get away from a traffic stop, maybe gives police a little bit more reason to follow up on this."

The FBI noted that use of almanacs or maps may be innocent, "the product of legitimate recreational or commercial activities." But it warned that when combined with suspicious behavior -- such as apparent surveillance -- a person with an almanac "may point to possible terrorist planning."

The publisher for The Old Farmers Almanac said Monday terrorists would probably find statistical reference books more useful than the collections of Americana in his famous publication of weather predictions and witticisms.

"While we doubt that our editorial content would be of particular interest to people who would wish to do us harm, we will certainly cooperate to the fullest with national authorities at any level they deem appropriate," publisher John Pierce said.

The FBI said information typically found in almanacs that could be useful for terrorists includes profiles of cities and states and information about waterways, bridges, dams, reservoirs, tunnels, buildings and landmarks. It said this information is often accompanied by photographs and maps.

The FBI urged police to report such discoveries to the local U.S. Joint Terrorism Task Force.

[ 12-29-2003, 06:06 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

Yeah, you don't want them to do anything to try and stop terrorists, you just want to bitch about them not doing any thing [img]smile.gif[/img] Come on Chewie..do you think you are giving them a fair shake? By your own posts, they are damned if they do and damned if they don't. There is absolutely no way to win for them. Don't you think just maybe you might cut the guys who have to do the job a break?....maybe give them a bone to work with?

How would Chewbaca make me sleep safer in the USA? How would you do the job in their place? I mean if you have a better strategy....lets hear it.

Sorry, but using tourists with Almanacs as a reason to suspect travelers are terrorists, is a bit over the top. Looks like ever shadow contains a boogyman who wants to destroy all that is America.

I don't buy it.

My opinion of course... And I'm not interested in coming up with a plan to find monsters under the bed, so don't ask.

Mark

[ 12-29-2003, 07:16 PM: Message edited by: skywalker ]

This is not about me. If you would like to bitch and whine about(and distort) my posts and perspectives, feel free. This will be my last response to it.


And on topic I would love to hear a logical, reasonable (IMPERSONAL) defense of being suspicious because of almanacs. We might as well declare using the internet as suspicious while we are at.

What if having an almanac while looking at a landmark becomes probable cause for arrest for suspicion of terrorism? Is that what America the Beautiful is destined to become?

Fear-The root of paranoia and tyranny.

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] Excellent! You said better than I could.

All I can say is it is pretty scary that the people in the FBI are this paranoid.

But even more scary is the probable fact that there must be some pretty nasty intelligence being gathered in regards to Al Qaeda that is causing this level of paranoia.

I shudder at the thought.

Mark

Lets see a reason to expect terrorists touse Almanacs? Umm because they have maps and geographical data? And because your average Arab American doesnt wander around with one in his hand nor does pretty much anyone...I have roamed the National Mall in DC on many occasions...can't say as how I have ever seen anyone out referencing an almanac...maps yes, almanacs...nope can't say I ever have....and a terrorist just might?

I know you can't have any kind of profiling at all or there will be claims of racism....and now you can't use things people carry with them as an indicator it just sounds like people expect them to catch these guys by divining rod and magic.

Umm and inresponse to the internet comment...did ya know that the government has systems to track certtain usages of the internet? So I guess they thought of that before you did.

Im not making this about you. Im asking if you had any better suggestions. It is easy to be an armchair quarterback......it is easy to complain...at least when I complain I have some idea on how to replace what Im complaining about. I was hoping this would be true for you as well.

All Im trying to find out is...do you just like to complain about things or do you actually have some constructive ideas to be implemented. Im not twisting anything about your post....you complained about a specific problem...I asked...how would YOU go about addressing it.

I will answer my own question however...I would profile. Sorry, it wouldn't make me popular (no fear there ;) ) but I would use race, religion, sex, age, nationality, income average or any other metric that could legitimately give me a shot at nailing the bastards before they commit their plan. I would search every person with even a slight possibility of their being from an arabic state...politely and with some modicum of decent treatment...apologize to the innocents and nail thehell out of the bad guys caught.....thats my solution...Whats yours?

PS. If you really feel that I was distorting your post please PM me with exact references and how you see it as a distortion. Also, if you feel I am being unfair in this thread..all you have to do is ask me not to respond to your threads or posts and I will comply.

I would think, that if they had any solid intel on terrorists that there would be arrests and such. I can't blame them too much for being paranoid, with images of 9-11 seered into the brain and such. Perhaps it is just my background in psycology and martial arts philosophy that leads me to the beleif that acting out of fear is an erroneous motive by which to act. Being paranoid is one thing, acting because of paranoia is another. This just smells at grasping at straws.

Ultimatley, I, in all my armchair general glory, (it's called thinking for myself! shocking!) see this as like just another in a long line of PR stunts designed to make it look like they are doing something. Kind of like the whole Iraq war, orange alert thing, the duct tape and plastic scare amongst others.

Never mind that OBL is probably hiding in a cave in the wild tribal areas of Pakistan, virtually free from harrassment, planning the next real attack somewhere and free to be an idealogical leader for terrorists.

Bottom line is, if they know of a specific threat, they are going to act on it. If they don't know of a specific threat they have obviously have the time on their hands to come up with things like vague warnings about alamanacs.

I live 20 minutes from Boston and have lived in Boston for the last 4 years, I still use my Frommer's Boston Almanac to find new places around town. I also have a Frommer's New England Alamanc for road tours of the area. Having an alamanac proves nothing, and should not logically be probable cause for even suspicion.

Anyway, I've managed to go far and wide in this post and not all of it was a response to your post, skywalker, but more general ranting and opining.

I too shudder at the thought of sinister terrorist plots, but I must refuse to let that fear control my actions. To quote the state motto of my state-neighbor to the north- "Live free or die." I would rather die a free American than live under a blanket of paranoia and terrorism inspired fear.

<font color=deepskyblue>The problem I see here is this......IF the terrorists WERE to launch an attack on a National Landmark, and it was later discovered that some of the terrorists had "scouted" the site earlier using (among other things) an almanac to gain information about and directions to the landmark....then the media would be blasting the administration for NOT taking common-sense steps to prevent the attack beforehand.

President Bush and his admin took a LOT of criticism for not realizing the 9/11 terrorists were planning to destroy the World Trade Center. After all, these guys were living in the U.S., took flying lessons here, and had collected extensive data on the airline schedules out of Boston and other surrounding cities. There were some cries in the media of "Why didn't they DO something about this ahead of time?"

Now they come out with measures to try to do something ahead of time, and they are roundly criticized for being paranoid. Sorry, but watching for tourists - especially those with Middle Eastern characteristic - that are visiting national landmarks that would make a plausible terrorist target and carrying an almanac just sounds like a common-sense approach to at least try to anticipate an attack before it happens.

As for me, I don't travel much at all. If I did, I would not feel worried to be seen traveling with an almanac. If the police feel they need to ask me a few extra questions because of that, I don't have a problem with it. It isn't likely to happen, of course, but I'm not going to criticize them for using every resource or method available to do a difficult job.</font>

Perhaps we should also profile caucasians using almanacs if we are going to profiling arabs using almanacs:

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...;f=27;t=000564

And we cannot forget Jose Padila, the hispanic terror suspect whose basic rights of judicial process were recently reinstated by the courts

Better yet, lets just profile everybody as it seems that race doesn't neccessarily equate to terrorist activity. Everyone is a suspect just for being present and having an almanac.

[sarcasm]If you own an almanac you must contact the department of homeland security and arrange for a full search of your person and property. Then we can start registering people who buy almanacs, travel guides and maps, making sure they have full background check, maybe even a 3 day waiting period for such dangerous items.[/sarcasm]

I guess we will see if pestering tourists actually stops a terror attack. In the meantime, I do hope the police and FBI are focused on looking for far more determinable clues of suspicious behavior, like behaving nervously and/or carrying or leaving large out-of-place packages at landmarks for example.

What was that quote by an American forefather about gaining security and losing freedom? The trend here is obvious.

Your entire first post is a giant ad hominem with a question stuck at the end. Your second post has a few more ad hominens as well. I will document some of them for you here shortly

You can certainly read your own words here that were posted publicly. You made these statements so you have the burden of proof for these statements, I will comment after each one:

I can't tell if you are just using sarcasm here or making an ad hominem using reverse sarcasm.

Provide documentation for all these posts you mention where I have stated there is no way for them to win and that they damned if they do damned if they dont.
Also explain what that has to do with original article posted in this topic.

This is quite clearly about me and not the news article that is the foundation for this topic. Another ad hominem.

Actually you are twisting something right there again. I wasn't complaining, I used sarcasm as opening comments on a news article. Here are my exact words:

"Oh man, I guess I will have to memorize the travel almanac for my next vacation. I sure won't be holding an Almanac in my hand the next time I "observe" a historic landmark or other place of notable interest."

You started with the ad hominem attacks I have documented after this. If you would have merely asked your question and/or merely commented on the news article I would have no issues with your posts in this thread. Discussing the issue of profiling or other investigative alternatives is fine as well as the topic that the news article is about. Recent expiriences have taught me that the lowest form of discourse is making personal snipes at a poster rather than discussing the topic at hand.

I expect personal snipes to end or to get the attention of moderators
The rules clearly state:
and this from Memnoch's fair play thread at the top of the forum:
Recently folks have gotten away with calling me anti-this and resentful-of- that both here and elsewhere simply becasue I held a different opinion or expressed that opinion in way they didn't like.

Perhaps your suggestions that I don't support the efforts of law enforcement to stop terrorists and that all I do is complain and not offer solutions is poorly timed and maybe ill-advised as well.

I dont mind having mindful discourse about the topics at hand. like the news article that was posted. But clearly making personal snipes and using ad hominem debate tactics and making defamatory implications violates the forums rules. Perhaps you haven't broken any of these rule and you have just skated close. Maybe I am just a bit over sensitive becasue of recent events?

I do know that if I get anymore "You are this, Your posts, You only do this" type posts I will ask for moderation and clarification of the forum rules with regards to making topics too personal.

Besides- making it personal takes the fun out of having discussions. Who can learn from divergent veiwpoints and new perspectives if the discussion consists of "you are this and you are that"?

Take Care,
Chewy

<font color=deepskyblue>In reference to the highlighted text here, I am clipping the paragraph that you highlighted in the original article....


<font color=white>The FBI noted that use of almanacs or maps may be innocent, "the product of legitimate recreational or commercial activities." But it warned that when combined with suspicious behavior -- such as apparent surveillance -- a person with an almanac "may point to possible terrorist planning."</font>

If you will notice, the last line indicates that the FBI is NOT using the presence of almanacs as a sole indicator. They specifically state that the presence of an almanac "when combined with suspicious behavior"...may point to possible terrorist planning.

It is seems evident to me that the police won't be arbitrarily "pestering tourists". Instead, they will be looking for other indicators in addition to the presence of an almanac. This fact is ignored in the paranoid scenarios you and <font color=white>skywalker</font> presented.

I realize you are using sarcasm to make your point, I simply think you are exaggerating the reaction officials will take regarding this issue.

As I said in my first post, I doubt I would have much to worry about if I decided to observe a national landmark and took my almanac with me. My lack of fear is NOT because I'm caucasian - it is because I would have my wife and kids with me. The A.Q. terrorists generally travelled either individually or in groups of 2-3 when visiting areas in preparation for the attack according to information uncovered about their preparations after the 9/11 attack). And, of course, they were all male.

If a group of 2-3 Middle Eastern men showed up at a national landmark that is a potential terrorist target, that would be one indicator. If these same men seemed interested in learning detailed information about the landmark, that would be a second indicator {most tourists just ask general questions in reference to whatever info is provided by the tour guide or recreation center...if someone started asking for much more in-depth info, that would indicate an unusual interest}. By themselves, these indicator could be perfectly innocent...but when combined, they would certainly warrant a little extra attention from the authorities charged with protecting the landmark, IMHO.

I'm sorry - I simply don't see the idea of including the presence of almanacs as one possible indicator of suspicious behavior as an infringement of my rights or freedom.</font>

Why not just ban almanacs. We could have an "almanac burning party".

So it is not feasable that a possible terrorist could visit sites with a woman and child in tow?

I'm not really paranoid, at least in regard to myself, maybe I am for innocent others. I guess it all depends on how far the investigation could be taken.

There are few targets of opportunity in Central Vermont, I think. So I doubt there's much for me and my family to fear locally.

And of course, it does not mean I am insensitive to the fears of others across the World.

Mark

<font color=deepskyblue>Certainly a possible terrorist could travel with a woman and child in tow, but that has not been the normal pattern for the A.Q. terrorists. They have always been individual (or very small groups) of men. Given thier disdainful attitude towards women in general, I don't know if they would change modus operandi or not - but it hasn't been their pattern in the past. And that is what the FBI is warning authorities to watch for. Again, it is just a common-sense approach to try to predict if and/or when an attack may occur. An extremely difficult job under the best of circumstances.

Certainly there is a potential for this measure to be abused, but I just don't believe most authorities are going to detain and interrogate tourists simply because they have an almanac in their car. I may end up being wrong about that and I will be the first to sadly acknowledge that if I am. But only time will tell if that is the case or not.</font>

Well, after all the criticism logical pointers to police officers is getting, I think we just need to go back to the tried and true method of terrorist identification....

SKIN COLOR [img]graemlins/heee.gif[/img]

[Edit] Let me elaborate a bit. Racial profiling is wrong, mkay. But, so is making any presumption based on circumstances and facts. Single man travelling alone, PFLP keychain and wierdly annotated almanac in hand -- but, no factors to look at. Nope, nothing to see here. Wierd fuse sticking out of his shoe -- must be a fashion thing. Nothing to see here. Move along.

Any such investigation to develop probable cause, such as a visual "look" at someone, needs to take in a number of factors to make a decision. This IS a helpful hint for law enforcement -- it's one more factor to look for. No factor is determinative, but what some of you seem to be advocating is NO factors may be used at all.

Which relegates us to waiting until the next tragedy happens rather than acting to prevent it. The over-PC-ness of this is silly. And the Ben Franklin photoshop was not even funny, because it relies on a misinterpretation of the situation rather than on the reality -- which is a reasonable alert as to a relevant factor.

Um.... skywalker, now that the Old Man in the Mountain fell apart, I don't think there are ANY targets north of Mass. :D

[ 12-30-2003, 11:23 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">I know, make people register their almanics. :D

$50/year for registration, and a $1000 fine if you are caught with an unregistered almanac. :D

Sometimes I feel like an insane leader. :D </font>

[ 12-30-2003, 11:54 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
As TL aptly pointed out....it makes absolutley no difference what the people in charge do..those here who criticize about almanacs will criticize no matter what action is taken...no matter what action is not taken. No win scenario for the guys who have to try to protect us....so that ebing the case...I think they should profile using every metric they think necessary....what have they got to loose? they are going to be criticized anyway.</font>

[ 12-30-2003, 12:29 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font color=deepskyblue>In reference to the highlighted text here, I am clipping the paragraph that you highlighted in the original article....


<font color=white>The FBI noted that use of almanacs or maps may be innocent, "the product of legitimate recreational or commercial activities." But it warned that when combined with suspicious behavior -- such as apparent surveillance -- a person with an almanac "may point to possible terrorist planning."</font>

If you will notice, the last line indicates that the FBI is NOT using the presence of almanacs as a sole indicator. They specifically state that the presence of an almanac "when combined with suspicious behavior"...may point to possible terrorist planning.
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]I did write: "I do hope the police and FBI are <font color=yellow> focused </font> on looking for far more determinable clues of suspicious behavior."

The key word that 'focuses' my opinion here is the word <font color=yellow>focused</font>.

My main contention, the one veiled in sarcasm in the original post, is that an entire memo was sent out about almanacs giving the impression that a focus should be on almanacs rather than a whole variety of other determinable factors.

I would think in the two plus years since 9/11 the wide-range of suspicious terrorist activities would have been documented more comprehensively rather than sending out seemingly random memos about secondary indicators that overwhelmingly more times than not will be used innocently.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
And if it is possible to focus...(and Id like ot know how) when does ones focus become too narrow and thus miss the blindingly obvious but outside your focus and thus result in the deaths of tens, hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands?

The Job law enforcement is doing re-terrorism is a task of near unimaginable scope for most people...the sheer volume of traffic into and out of the country, the number of electronic and paper mail enourmous...and all it takes is one package with the right material to slip through the cracks.....

My point is not that law enforcement/administration can do no wrong....Im saying rather than look for things to complain about...lets realize we have a load to thank these guys for.....such as no repeats in the USA in the last 2 years. And if we must criticize...at least be ready with an alternative.....it is only fair.

Id say it is quite unfair to say "No your doing it all wrong" and then when aksed "Oh really? How should we do it" to not have a reply forthcoming.</font>

[ 12-30-2003, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
The key fact being..thats all YOU (not you , you just an in general you..as in the public you) know about. because that is the one that got leaked to the press or that the press decided to print....the fact is, you cannot believe that this "memo" is the summ total of the plan by federal law enforcment types......Im mean government workers are notoriously lazy and unimaginative in general...but they really aren't all that way....it is just a stereotype.</font>

[ 12-30-2003, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

FBI grunt observation: "You know, sir, we've noticed some of these terrorists use almanacs as a source of information, and will often carry them around -- we've found them in the possession of some terrorists we caught."

FBI management: "Okay, that's useful, let's get that tip to law enforcement."

IW Forum: Today we will have an in depth discussion of this miniscule issue and blow it up to gargantuan proportions class. Pencils and keyboards ready.

Ugh.... I can feel my IQ lowering with each post. This thread sucks at my brain like a ravenous illithid.

If Big Brother really annoys you, rant about the Patriot Act or a REAL issue. I have seen the term "almanac profiling" created here today, and I am a bit dumber for the experience.

I agree. I actually initially posted with the thought this was kinda humorous in a "Daily Show" kinda sarcastic way. I mean really, a whole memo for almanacs, It just sounds kinda silly.

edit:

If some type of serious discussion evolves out of it that doesnt involve posters making personal swipes at other posters, I see no harm in the thread, unless of course it is sucking away your IQ! Then stay away!

[ 12-30-2003, 01:40 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

<font color=deepskyblue>I am personally more worried about ravenous illithids running loose on the forums than the prospect of "almanac profiling". :eek:

As for the personal swipes, they have been taken by both sides so it should be easy enough for both sides to agree that they have given as good as they got and move on. ;) </font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Well I seriously didn't mean to take personal swipes, but to just be brutally honest and up front about people trying to do a tough job with criticism coming in from all angles.

I have been told I am too direct some times [img]smile.gif[/img] all I can say is....you won't have to wonder what Im thinking [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now about these ilithids.....how do we go about stopping them?</font>

[ 12-30-2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

ROTFLMAO anybody notice the words: SOME, COULD, MAY, MIGHT and words of simular meanings? Instead of words like: ALL, ARE, WILL, DEFININTLY(sp?).

The sky sorta coulda may might be falling :D

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Well if you don't use words that allow for some slip, then no one will cut you a break if you use </font>
the wrong word. [img]smile.gif[/img]

TL,TL,TL some advice from and OLD COOT, (I saw your pictures on the IW photobook & You look to young to have a sheep skin.) ;)

Sitback and enjoy the show, Here's a special helmet for you it's one I just recently found. "The Helm of Windmills" a +5 helm that will stop all illithid or other mind sucking attacks, by reminding you that a "Windmill is a Windmill" it's blades are fixxed and it spins in only one direction, and always faces the wind.

How about this TL:

Patriot Act II: WITH A WHISPER, NOT A BANG
David Martin - San Antonio Current

Bush signs parts of Patriot Act II into law — stealthily

Excerpt:
On December 13, when U.S. forces captured Saddam Hussein, President George W. Bush not only celebrated with his national security team, but also pulled out his pen and signed into law a bill that grants the FBI sweeping new powers. A White House spokesperson explained the curious timing of the signing - on a Saturday - as "the President signs bills seven days a week." But the last time Bush signed a bill into law on a Saturday happened more than a year ago - on a spending bill that the President needed to sign, to prevent shuttng down the federal government the following Monday.

By signing the bill on the day of Hussein's capture, Bush effectively consigned a dramatic expansion of the USA Patriot Act to a mere footnote. Consequently, while most Americans watched as Hussein was probed for head lice, few were aware that the FBI had just obtained the power to probe their financial records, even if the feds don't suspect their involvement in crime or terrorism.

By signing the bill on the day of Hussein's capture, Bush effectively consigned a dramatic expansion of the USA Patriot Act to a mere footnote. The Bush Administration and its Congressional allies tucked away these new executive powers in the Intelligence Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2004, a legislative behemoth that funds all the intelligence activities of the federal government. The Act included a simple, yet insidious, redefinition of "financial institution," which previously referred to banks, but now includes stockbrokers, car dealerships, casinos, credit card companies, insurance agencies, jewelers, airlines, the U.S. Post Office, and any other business "whose cash transactions have a high degree of usefulness in criminal, tax, or regulatory matters."

Rokenn, I think that news deserves a thread of its own.

Imagine, Mr. integrity sneaking a bill signing like this in on the Saturday of the perhaps biggest news story all year. No fanfare, no speeches on how and why we are all safer now.
Creepy.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I agree with Chewie in part...seperate thread...as for the rest....I love conspiracy theorists [img]smile.gif[/img] so fun to watch [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

Praise from the Right and the Left, must be my lucky day [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Hey, I ain't that young! I just had my 30th B-day, and I'm feeling older by the day. As for sheep skin, sorry, but I'm a wolf in wolf's clothing. ;) Sheep are for Scotsmen. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

BTW, does that helmet protect me from tilting at windmills??? [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] :D

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I thought they were for NewZealanders.......


As for Windmill tilting..I think that is a time honoured tradition and that the Helmet will just give you better head and neck protection.</font>

NO you're on your own on that one, that's a hard leason and one that can easily be forgotten even by OLD COOTS ;)