People actually question whether such a school is neccessary to protect gay students from hate and harassment...

Story

Why didn't they just deride them for going to a "special school" based on sexuality. I mean, really, who actually KNOWS anything about their sexuality in high school? It's absurd.

Harvey Milk -- guffaw [img]graemlins/1drinkspit.gif[/img]

Hey, do they ride a short bus?

Am I getting this correctly? They are actually making a SEPARATE school for gay kids? Isn't that segregation at its worst?

It is an optional school for students who face and/or fear harrasment at other schools. AFAIK You dont even need to be gay to attend. It is an optional school that has been around for many years, but just recently recieved more $$$ in order to expand and so it has recieved alot of media scrutiny. I think calling it segregation is a bit far-fetched.

LOL...irony at its best is sometimes unintended.

[ 09-09-2003, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

No one told me that Fred Phelps was in town.

It is an optional school for students who face and/or fear harrasment at other schools. AFAIK You dont even need to be gay to attend. It is an optional school that has been around for many years, but just recently recieved more $$$ in order to expand and so it has recieved alot of media scrutiny. I think calling it segregation is a bit far-fetched. </font>[/QUOTE]Still I don't think it's a good idea as it is the first move towards segregation. "You don't have to be gay to attend" means to me that parents will send their kids their if
+ they are gay
+ the parents want their kids to learn "tolerance lessons"
+ the parents don't care if their kids classmates are gay or not (which is the way it should be

Yet the parents and kids who do not want gay students at their school would have succeeded in mobbing them out of there.
Well, we're harrassing you. What you're gonna do about it. If you don't like it go to a <s>black</s>, <s>jewish</s>, gay school.

personally I thing they should just send the bullies, haters to their 'special' school. Formally known as juvenile hall [img]smile.gif[/img]

TL,
Just checking you do know who Harvey Milk is right?

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
So where does the segregation end? And Ummm is it really too much to ask, that kids in school, keep their sexuality to themselves?....of course being a father makes me want to think my kids wont be exploring that till they are adults...but I know better.
</font>

hahaha you can't be serious can you? Would this 'keeping their sexuality to themselves' apply to hetrosexual kids as well? These poor kids are bursting with hormones. Trying to keep kids in HS from exploring there sexuality is like trying to stop a mack truck with a sheet of paper.

New HS rules:
No hand holding
no goo goo eyes
no kissing in the halls
no dating!
No dancing! (because you know where that leads!)
did I miss anything?

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

Going to school with somebody who is different than you can make you learn important things and it contributes to being able to deal with this issues without either negative or positive discrimination.

Example:
If you go to high school and a gay boy hits on you, you tell him you're straight and not interested. If he keeps hitting on you he's a jerk. Not a "poor homophile who can't help it" and not a "f***ing faggot" but a plain jerk.

Once kids start to learn that there are decent people AND jerks of any gender, sexuality, skin colour, origin, ... and that neither nice guys nor bad guys are limited to one of the above our future society will be a lot easier.

So what is the bigger crime? What causes more outrage? What should really be discredited in the article I posted? A "safe" school for kids to learn "separate" from their hateful peers or the behavior of those hateful peers and their parents?

The article I posted wasn't about the school itself, but the reception the students received on the first day. People are so quick to deride the school but so far few have no comment about the hatemongers standing out front "protesting" the students supposed sexuality.

Is it okay to hate the homosexuals but its not okay to make a safe school for them to attend?

If I had the choice between sending my kid to a school where they would be heckled, harrassed and beat up for simply being themselves, or to a school where the staff and student body were indifferent or even supportive of the kid's individuality I would choose the later.


And MagiK the idea that these kids should keep their sexuality to themselves, well I could just as easily tell you to keep your opinions to yourself but that would be just as stupid and unfair as what you proposed. How about people keep their religion to themselves? How about people keep their politics to them selves? How about people keep their likes and dislikes to themselves. Keep your nationality to yourself? keep your personality to yourself? I could go on and on... Where does it end?

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I am quite serious. In answer to your question. Yes. I really like the idea of all boys and all girls schools AND I do believe that it is possible for kids to keep it in their pants....it used to be "The NORM".
</font>

Tell that to the trans-gender kid who, after daily swirlies and beatings in the the bathroom and threats that if he tells he will be dead, finally has a place where he can go to the bathroom with out fearing the throngs of junior gang bangers just itching to kick somebodies ass.

We are talking an American inner-city school district here...The types of environments that inspired movies like Lean On Me and The Principal.

It's an admirable idea that people can learn from diversity as well as adversity, but if the darn kettle is whistling you gotta take it off the oven or the water will boil over.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
So what is this kid who cannot cope going to do the day he graduates? Move to an all gay community and get a job at an all gay corporation?

Edit: for typo's and to make sure Chewie knows, Im being serious and not sarcastic here.
</font>

[ 09-09-2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I am quite serious. In answer to your question. Yes. I really like the idea of all boys and all girls schools AND I do believe that it is possible for kids to keep it in their pants....it used to be "The NORM".
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]The norm? When? I've heard my dad's stories of when he was in HS in the late 50's (in Indiana). It sure wasn't the norm then! May have to got back another 50 years or so I guess [img]tongue.gif[/img]

This just goes to show what happens when you let the loony left run the schools. everything falls apart and anarcy reigns supreme.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
So what is this kid who cannot cope going to do the day he graduates? Move to an all gay community and get a job at an all gay corporation?

Edit: for typo's and to make sure Chewie knows, Im being serious and not sarcastic here.
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]Lacking a safe refuge he is probably more likely to bring a weapon to school one day and show those bullies once and for all what it feels like.

Besides you miss the point its not about the kids sexuality or what what hes going to do after high school, but about the way he is treated in the hypothetical scenario. I guess that must be okay to you since you are more concerned where the kids gonna end up after being able to go to school in a safe enviroment rather than what is happening to cause the neccessity of that safe enviroment.

edited for clarity.

And to ask if people get beat up and given swirlies in todays corporate enviroment?

[ 09-09-2003, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Im not that old. [img]smile.gif[/img]

It was the norm that there was no fratrenizing in several of the schools I attended. The dances were formal affairs and were VERY well chaperoned of course this was in a community where moral values were set by christian religious churches and "alternative" life styles were not encouraged or welcome.
Kids did not hve the "right" to privacy and their lockers were open for inspection, and the principle was encouraged by parents to paddle their kids if they misbehaved and on the occasion that some tough kid thought he was so baaad a shop teacher or one of the other male teachers would wait till they caught him being a bully and would deck his ass.....yeah I know can't do that any more...might bruise his ego or heaven forbid, damage his self esteem.

I know, those days are gone. Doesnt mean I have to like it.
</font>

[ 09-09-2003, 04:46 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Ummm Chewie...where did I ever hint that it was ok to mistreat the kid?

I was pointing out that sheltering him from the real world isn't going to be doing any favors for him. As for killing people, if that is the only way he can deal with bullies, then he is as seriously mentally unstable as the bullies are. The kid needs to learn to cope and to blend into his environment, its all fine and dandy to be gay if you want to, but you need to realize that choice (or if not choice then life style) or just being different carries a price.

Nothing in life is free and it is NOT only the gay kids that have to contend with bullies. Skinny kids do, fat kids do, jewish kids do, ugly kids do, poor kids do...every one has to learn to cope with it and has to deal with the same exact bullies. Being gay doesnt mean you are suffering more than any one else is.
</font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Ummm Chewie...where did I ever hint that it was ok to mistreat the kid?

I was pointing out that sheltering him from the real world isn't going to be doing any favors for him. As for killing people, if that is the only way he can deal with bullies, then he is as seriously mentally unstable as the bullies are. The kid needs to learn to cope and to blend into his environment, its all fine and dandy to be gay if you want to, but you need to realize that choice (or if not choice then life style) or just being different carries a price.

Nothing in life is free and it is NOT only the gay kids that have to contend with bullies. Skinny kids do, fat kids do, jewish kids do, ugly kids do, poor kids do...every one has to learn to cope with it and has to deal with the same exact bullies. Being gay doesnt mean you are suffering more than any one else is.
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]No man, you didnt hint that it was okay to mistreat anyone unless silence counts as hinting. You make good points about who has to contend with bullies, and thats why it makes sense that if you can't control the bullies, you allow the bully's victims a safe refuge.

And if the victim kid becomes violent and hurts someone in an angry act of self defense this makes him unstable. Im confused...

[ 09-09-2003, 05:52 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

Segregation always causes more problems than it solves. In this case, you are sending out the message that:

1. Gays are different from the rest of society and that's why they need to attend a 'special' school and
2. Gays get 'special' $3.2 million dollar treatment and you ought (not) to resent that...

Oh goody - this is going to help reduce discrimination...Not!

The thing is this school isn't just for gays, it is for students who have faced bullying and harrassment. It has been labeled the gay high school because for some reason gay and transgender students seem to face more violence and harassment in school than others.

edit-
Here is a different article with some more details:

Story

[ 09-09-2003, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

If every kid who got swirlees and beatings for being different got a special school, we'd have goth schools, nerd schools, stoner schools -- only the jocks and preps would go to normal school. Isn't that silly?

Howabout we just let kids figure out how to integrate into society while they're young? Prejudice won't end at the High School graduation door, you know.

And howabout we let them figure out some lessons that even grown people need to figure out -- for instance, if you make your sexuality a defining characteristic of self and shove it in people's faces, you WILL get some harsh reactions. Can't we all just grow up? I mean, do you really want to know about my Mary Lou Retton blow-up doll? I didn't think so, so don't bother describing YOUR bedroom antics to me.

Anybody ever thought of actually punishing the bullies for their actions?
We have harassement laws, don't they apply at high school?
It is tragic if Klanmembers beat up an African-American. What is even more tragic is if as a result they go free and the victim is sent to another state. Physical abuse is a crime! And if people commit that at high-school age it is still a crime! And common practice in a society should be to punish the culprits and NOT to send away the victims so that the culprits can't strike. Or do you want to tell me that these bullies are so mighty that the law can't touch them?

[ 09-09-2003, 06:54 PM: Message edited by: Faceman ]

Well evidently not much is being done to take care of the bullies or this school would have become so successful over the last 20 years that they needed to expand. I would love to see the bullies taken care of, but it seems that treating gays poorly at school doesnt warrant very much attention of the school authorities or the victim's are too scared of retribution to complain.

So your saying it is okay for the striaght couple to dance at the school dance or hold hands in the hallway, but if a gay couple does that its shoving sexuality in your face. Come on. How about letting them learn the lesson that they deserve to get an education in a safe enviroment and deserve to be treated with respect and dignity. How teaching the lesson that bulling and discrimination IS NOT OKAY and that the powers that be will protect them BY ANY MEANS NECCESSARY. How about those lessons?

Is bullying okay? It is part of the rites of passage of being in high school in America or am I reading some peoples posts wrong? I guess if you can live with thoughts of suicide and low self-esteem and in constant fear then bullying is just fine. Shut down the school and send the kids back to the wolves. Real nice.

That's the way it should be, but I guess these people didn't feel it worked. Still I too, feel it will cause more problems than it solves to start segregating high schools in any way.

Well mayber bullying is a tradition in the US. It's not here in Austria. Of course we got bullies too but when it comes to physical abuse it's teachers conference and expulsion after the third incident (if not sooner). And it is not necessary for the victims to squeal because teachers notice if a kid is being bullied the hard way and take action.
This extends to bullying outside of school too (no: "I'll meet you outside")
I cannot recall more than three incidents during my schooltime that were not followed by expulsion of the bullies (in these cases they stopped bullying after the second warning).
Where were they expelled to? First to another school in case their behaviour was because of private feuds. If they continued there they were expelled to a special school where teachers also work on their violence issues.
So it's not that hard. Send the bullies to bully-school because it's them who need to sort their issues out if they can't function in a society/school without resorting to violence.

I hear ya Faceman...I wish the sort of school this topic refers to wasn't neccessary. I know violence isn't tolerated in schools here on the whole, but perhaps it is glossed over in some cases because the victims are gay or have gender issues. I guess the system needs reform or rather the people running it do.

Of course the point of this topic was how poorly some people treat gays, not the school in particular.

<font color="orange">Bullying is now treated as an inconvenience, rather than a problem. Too often, the kids who do it get scot-free, because of their parents, or their ability to lie. Administrators like to think they have more important things to do. There is almost no support for a victim.

Anyways, about the school itself: no. Absolutely not. How on earth are you supposed to know 100% your sexual orientation by the time you're in high school. Hell, some of my friend's aren't too sure, and we're on the tail-end of high school, (last year, actually.) Not to mention the obvious neighbourhood jokes, the possible embarassment when you tell your friends and family where you go to school, and how tough it could be to get into many colleges and jobs. I don't think it's a good decision. Have more orientation in regular schools towards homosexuality and alternate-sexuality. They're going to live in the mainstream someday anyway. Plenty of adults are as cruel towards homosexuals as teens are.</font>

That's a very good point and one that will not be lost on the 'gay-haters' either. "Hey! All we have to do 'clean' our school of this 'gay trash' is to harass them a little. So why don't we"

So it is possible that the creation of this school will increase harrassment at other schools...

Quite true. Unfortunately, bullying doesn't always end after high-school, there are plenty of bosses who love to do it too. In a perverse way, bullying in high-school teaches you to deal with the world after school, where the bullying and mal-treatment by others is often far worse.

Obviously I am not condoning bullying in schools but, I remember from my own time at school how the system worked. Bullies picked on the kids for any excuse, brown skin, glasses, obesity, father is a teacher - any excuse they could find. The way to avoid the bullying was always the same though - when they came for you, you stood up for yourself and fought all of them if neccessary - even though you knew you would lose. You'd come away bloody but they wouldn't come back to you again - too much trouble.

A valuable life lesson I think.

[ 09-10-2003, 03:30 AM: Message edited by: Skunk ]

That's a very good point and one that will not be lost on the 'gay-haters' either. "Hey! All we have to do 'clean' our school of this 'gay trash' is to harass them a little. So why don't we"

So it is possible that the creation of this school will increase harrassment at other schools...
</font>[/QUOTE]First off Timber's point misses the fact the being a homosexual isn't like being in a social/fashion clique like being a goth, stoner, nerd, prep, or jock is. Second off the kind of harrassment a gay kid faces is more akin to hateful racism than social bullying. Thirdly, people who practice hate crimes need no additional excuse to practice hate. They do it out of ignorant hate and prejudice rather than because of idiotic conflicting social spheres.

Actually if you fight back in school in America you get the same punishment as the aggressor, suspension or expulsion in most cases. The adults at the school are responsible for the safety of the kids. Taking the matter into your own hands is frown uponed and punished.

I stopped encountering bullism when I reached junior high. In grade school I was a constant target becasue I had a severe stutter and I have a funny last name. Every instance of fighting back landed me suspended and in dire threat of being held back due to failure although I never once started any of the altercations.

I would think the macho gang of hatemongers, rednecks, or gangbangers would be infuriated that a wimpy little 'fag' would have the nads to actually fight back and would just intensify the harrasment.

For example my friend John finally decided to fight back and was stabbed repeatedly on the school lawn during lunch several days later ( after serving suspension for fighting) because the gang-banger whos nose he broke was embarressed and wanted revenge. His spine was severed and he will never feel his legs again. That is a valuable lesson about fighting back I think.

Sad and ironic that he wasn't even gay, just a bit fem. But the assholes who harrassed him up over and over again, beat him bloody, and finally stabbed him sure thought he was gay. Perhaps it was brave of him to fight back considering the reputation the aggressors had for carrying weapons, perhaps it was the biggest mistake of his life. Maybe if he would have just taken a few licks that day instead of throwing a single punch he would still be playing soccer and moshing at concerts.

It is a bad memory forme. I saw the stabbing occur. Maybe I'm personally attatched to this issue for obvious reasons, but I don't think my judgment is clouded by it.

Another point to consider: a typical trait amongst gay males is passivness/effimancy. Hardly the kind of personality trait conductive to making any sort stand against hatred and rage.
The statistics of teen suicide and depression amongst gays speak for themselves.


Doesn't the fact that this school has a 90% graduation rate with 60% going on to college mean anything as well? Not bad considering alot of the student body may have once been drop-outs.

Is the safe albeit seperate school the lessor or greater of evils in this issue until the same gaurantee of safety can be made in all schools?

I think parents of heterosexual children should be pleased about this development. Now their sons can't be converted or seduced into homosexuality when the time comes to make the decision whether to be straight or gay.

What??? So if someone begins to punch you, you are supposed to just do nothing until he has finished, regardless of the damage (permanent or temporary), broken bones etc??? Man, if that is the case in the US, then the country is really screwed up. How about coming to the rescue of the victim, is that not allowed until the bullies have finished half killing their victim either?

Sorry to hear about that - what your school did was akin to condoning bullying - personally, I would have sued them.

I'm sorry to hear about that but, 'the ganbanger' probably would have poked him at some point anyway - because that is the kind of person he is. Maybe not immediately, probably would have made him suffer and live in fear for a couple of years - but sooner or later, he would have done him a serious injury.

No, the trait of passivity is something that has to be overcome - or people will walk all over such folk for the rest of their lives - hence the (unintended) educational aspect of learning to stand up for yourself.

Yeah - it means that the school is well funded in comparison to its impoverished neighbours - who will soon start to resent its 'special' treatment.

Absolutley not - because the existence of such schools will help to continue the myth that gays are 'different' and so the mainstream schools and society at large will fail to get the message across that gays are normal people. Thus in twenty years time we will still be having the same debate as a direct result of the existence of such ill-conceived institutions. <u>Publicly highlighting differences always leads to discrimination.</u>

Chewbacca, as you yourself said:
Thirdly, people who practice hate crimes need no additional excuse to practice hate. They do it out of ignorant hate and prejudice rather than because of idiotic conflicting social spheres.
The minority of hate mongers gather the ignorant around them and 'educate' them to their way of thinking. Removing the gay kids from the mainstream school system will help them in their task of 'educating' because the 'student' has no gay references in his social sphere...

<font color=orange>That's quite true. There is no fighting allowed in school. Both partys are punished, though usually the "bully" or the one who started it is given a stronger punishment. Now a days, they will cal the parents in for a conference. When I went to school, the just busted our asses and we may have gotten an in-school suspension. those that got into a lot of fights were suspended for a period of time.

In High School now, they will also call the police and the police will decide if charges are to be filed. Personally, I think that is a little extreme, but live in different times now.

BTW, the school system my children are in, has it's on police force. Schools that have a high incidence of voilence will have one or two school policeman assigned to it. They are armed and are trained just like any other police officer.

No, I don't. But if you're asking the question, then I suspect it may be a reference to Stonewall or some such gay history.

First off, let me say I think I'm in complete agreement with everything Skunk has said. In fact, I just placed a call to my shrink so we can work through this issue to where I can deal with it. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No, I wasn't saying that. My reference was a gripe about those who are just too annoyingly "out." I mean, two guys dancing together doesn't bother me much. One guy running aroung with Daisy Dukes up his arse crack, bronze highlights in his hair, flipping his wrist about, lisping and calling everyone "girlfriend," however just screams "I need attention." And, the gay folks who feel compelled to tell you their sexual preference only minutes after you meet them get to me, too (As I said, I felt no inclination to tell him about my Mary Lou Retton blow-up doll). Those were my references. However, knowing that if you dance with someone of the same sex in public will get some people to hate you is a valuable life lesson. While society is changin by LEAPS AND BOUNDS with regard to gay acceptance, high schools should still not coddle the kids and should not LIE to them about how they will be perceived in the real world.
They're useless lessons. They don't "teach" anything other than pipe dreams. Let me tell you, if I had a dollar for everytime a boss called me stupid, I'd be a rich man. If I had a dollar for everytime other associates were called stupid to go with the other dollars, I'd be Bill Gates. I would guess that about 85% of the attorneys I've seen spend a ton of time telling younger attorneys they are ignorant. And, guess what, they're right quite often. Respect .... pfffffffffft. YOu don't get it in the real world. Why lie about life and replace truth with pipe dreams and visions of Xanadu?

Discrimination? I was reading a Havard Business article yesterday on "how to pitch the perfect project." It was very informative, and based on the presumption that studies show it takes as little as 150 milliseconds for someone to form a first impression of you. We discriminate. We all do. The world is too vast for our minds to comprehend without putting boxes around people and filing them in appropriate drawers. Again, why lie?

As for bullying, is it not okay. But, how do you stop it? Stopping bullying in schools is like trying to change the direction of wind. Look, I got bullied. I've been tripped with my tray in the lunchroom a time or ten. In fact, if it weren't for bullies, I'd have gotten in almost no fistfights -- and would have missed those valuable life experiences. Plus, I wouldn't have the acute recollection of what it feels like to have my tooth punched through my lip (wanna see my scar? :D ) to remind me I might want to hold my tongue when I'm getting ready to be a smartass in a bar. ;)

Really, aren't bullies a necessary evil? I saw the most quiet nice guy one day achieve full self-actualization when the baddest school bully slammed his locker on his face. He achieved mythic status amongst us by going berserk and kicking the crap outta the bully until the teachers broke it up. He got to experience his barbaric yawp. No one can ever take that away from him. And, that bully never crossed him again. Imagine the social harm we'll be doing to kids by removing the bullies from the flock.

[ 09-10-2003, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

No, I don't. But if you're asking the question, then I suspect it may be a reference to Stonewall or some such gay history. </font>[/QUOTE]Harvey Milk was the first openly gay person elected to the San Francisco Board of Supervisor in 1977. Prior to being elected he was known as the Mayor of Castro Street (the City's main gay neighborhood). The following year he was assassinated by Dan White, an ex-city supervisor. White got of on a reduced capacity plea and only served about 7 years for killing Supervisor Milk and Mayor George Moscone, the so-called Twinkie defense. White committed suicide soon after being release from prison in the mid 80's..