From the BBC.
<hr>A bus has exploded in a predominantly Orthodox neighbourhood of Jerusalem, killing at least 15 people and injuring more than 70.<hr>
It seems that region will never experience anything but death and violence. Apart from road block disputes it looked promising but now I fear everything will escalate once more. :(

Just when they're making real progress toward a Palestinian state. Look, these peoples have been at each other's throats since recorded history began (q.v. the Bible). I say we simply let Israel, the clear winner (as chance would have it), wipe Palestine off the map. Neither side will have it any other way. Palestine does not WANT peace, and apparently does not WANT statehood -- it wants martyrdom. It's asked so long and so loudly for martyrdom. Well, why not let the people have what they want?

<font size=0>Sarcasm in this thread may be a little too well hidden by the level of which I'm fed up with the Middle East situation.</font>

[ 08-19-2003, 03:53 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

just my 2c

incorrect statement: Palestine does not want peace
correct statement: certain Palestinians do not want peace

This is exactly what extremist groups want you to think. That they represent the majority of their alleged side. With most groups/races/peoples/humans the majority wants peace and quietness and the possibility to live their own lives unharmed.

And it is not just certain Palestinians that feel that way. Remeber what killed the process the last time they got close to peace.

It so sad that it only takes a small hardcore of fanatics to hold the majority hostage to terror and bloodshed.

Yes, gentlemen, you are correct. But, if the general Palestenian population were so opposed to these extremists, would they not keep them in check? Hell, I'd think they would be equally fed up with this crap as the rest of us are. I want to know why run-of-the-mill Palestenians aren't seen dragging the Suicide Bomber Anonymous club members and support staff out into the street and beating them Rodney King style. [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img] Complicity is its own evil, my friends.

Basically it comes down to this: all, yes ALL Palestinians hate the Israeli's, and most Israeli's hate the Palestinians in return. It's as simple as that. I don't think that will ever change, not as long as there are Jews living in Jerusalem, or better, the entire region.

Archenemies forever...

If it is just a small hardcore group, then why don't the vast majority of peace loving Palistinians give them up? Instead I keep seeing interviews where the strong religious beliefs of these martyr's is applauded and acts like the 9/11 terrorists attack become reasons for celebration.

I don't know what it would take for peace. I do know that a big step would be if those who profess their desire for peace would act like it. It's time for the Arab and muslims to denounce the killers in their midst instead of saying it is OK because of the evil Jews. It's time for the Israeli's to do the same. No more, It's retaliation. They started it." and "If we don't kill they won't respect us and wipe us out."

<font color='white'> If it is just a 'small group', it seems like they would all be dead by now, I mean after all, these are suicide bombings, the bomber dies along with the victims. </font>

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00"> You see that on TV because peace loving Palistinians don't make headlines or ratings. Can you give up every criminal in Texas? It is problay as easy for them as for you to hand over every criminal in Texas.Do you even know know the location of a single criminal wanted by the law in your home state? Not quite so simple as it sounds.</font>

[ 08-19-2003, 05:13 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

Getting involved in a situation that you know nothing about is always a bad idea. As TL pointed at, the conflict has been raging for thousands of years, and the origin is probably long forgotten. As noble as it may be to want to bring peace to the region, nobody can do that but themselves. Sticking our oar in just makes things worse, so leave it be. Let them figure it out for themselves.

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00"> You see that on TV because peace loving Palistinians don't make headlines or ratings. Can you give up every criminal in Texas? It is problay as easy for them as for you to hand over every criminal in Texas.Do you even know know the location of a single criminal wanted by the law in your home state? Not quite so simple as it sounds.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]Forgive me for not being clear. I was referring to interviews where the family members of a suicide bomber speak of their knowledge of what the person was planning and praising their faith. My point was that even those who say they want peace also want to allow those they know to continue in acts of violence.

I would be less sceptical in the Israeli resentment towards a Palestinian state if I knew that the palestinians could coexist peacefully within the state of Israel, but I doubt that will ever be a reality. Firstly the recent happenings have basically wiped out any trust between the two peoples. Besides it would mean for the Israelians that they would have to give up Israel's image as a jewish state. Since a large part of it's population would suddenly be neither jewish (but arab) nor jewish (but muslim).

The problem is what to do with all these palestinians then. They cannot be exiled since none of the neighbouring countries are willing or able to support them. Neither is the final solution of genocide viable because it would face enormous resentment internally (from the Israeli who sees themselves as proud humanists) and would propably provoke the ire of the entire western world, especially Europe who for some reason hates everything related to genocide (the Third Reich, former Yugoslavia, nudge nudge, say no more).

Basically the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is a crisis that CANNOT be solved in anyway, let all followers of bleak hopelessness and perpetual pain rejoice.

<font color=cadetblue>I agree completely with you. No matter how hard the US or any other good willed country attempts to get the countries to cooperate, in the end only those 2 can really do anything to end the violence.</font>

*sigh*
How either side could claim to be the "mature one" in this matter is beyond me.

<h3>Jerusalem Segregation Wall Hits 1000s Palestinians</h3>
Thousands of Palestinians Hit by Jerusalem Segregation Wall.
IOF Confiscate More West Bank Land, Annex Parts of 5 Towns.
The Israeli government has issued land confiscation orders for a new segrgation wall, which confiscate and annex more Palestinian land to the unilaterally-declared capital of the Jewish state and will put some 50,000 Palestinians from the West Bank on the Israeli side of the barrier, thus leaving hundreds of thousands on both sides of the Wall cut off from relatives, schools and jobs on the other side.
Most of the confiscated land lay inside the West Bank, Ha’aretz reported Tuesday.
The route of the wall, which Israeli sources described as the “Jerusalem envelope,” would pass throuh several Palestinian towns and villages annexing parts of Bethlehem, Sur Baher, Abu Dis, Kufur Akeb and Al-Ram.
All theses comunities will be cut off from the other parts of the West Bank.
After the anouncement of the new wall plan, Mayor of Bethlehem Hanna Nasser confirmed that the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) issued orders to confiscate Palestinian land around the Bilal Rabah Mosque for “military purposes.”
Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon is facing increasing international pressure not to undermine future peace talks with the Palestinians by insisting on building the Apartheid Segregation wall.
Even Israel’s closest ally, Washington, has voiced concern that the Wall between Israel and the West Bank could complicate negotiations on the borders of a future Palestinian state, the goal of a US-sponsored peace “roadmap.”
The White House is reportedly piling pressure on Israel to revise the map of the next section of the wall, which is seen by Palestinians as an attempt to pre-determine the borders of their future state.
Similar position was highlighted following a recent visit of high-ranking Christian delegation to the occupied Palestinian territory.
“The WCC and our member churches are extremely concerned about the creation of the so-called security wall,” said the director of the World Council of Churches’ Commission of the Churches on International Affairs (WCC/CCIA) Peter Weiderud.
Speaking at a press briefing at the end of 12-14 August World Council of Churches' (WCC) staff visit to Jerusalem, Weiderud was referring to the separation wall presently under construction in the West Bank.
The wall is creating “a new political border” that violates international law, he pointed out.
“While the government of Israel is negotiating a 'land for peace' formula, the facts on the ground show a different picture.” The wall “will turn any Palestinian affected entities into Bantustans - to which Israel can shut its door any time. While barriers and walls are tumbling down or becoming obsolete all over the world, we are experiencing the opposite here.”
“With the security walls, total closures and checkpoints, Palestinian towns have become large prisons festering with frustration,” Weiderud stressed.
During their three-day visit, WCC staff met with the heads of churches and Christian communities of Jerusalem, President Yasser Arafat, and Ambassador Gadi Golan, head of the religious affairs bureau at the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.

IOF Detain More Palestinians, Peace Activists
On the ground, IOF detained two international activists because they were trying to prevent Israeli bulldozers from demolishing a Palestinian house in the northern West Bank.
In the pre-dawn hours of Sunday morning, eight Israeli occupation army vehicles raided the Balata refugee camp outside the city of Nablus in an attempt to demolish a Palestinian house.
However, the two activists chained themselves to the upper floors of the house in an attempt to prevent its demolition.
IOF forced the activists out and detained them, sources close to the peace activists said.
Separately, IOF detained five Palestinians from occupied and annexed east Jerusalem on suspicion of trying to re-establish Palestinian security forces in the city, Israeli police said.
The men, who were arrested during an overnight raid in Silwan village southeast of the Old City, were thought to have spent the past few weeks undergoing military training in the West Bank city of Jericho, the Israeli police alleged.
Police suspect the men underwent training with the aim of reestablishing an arm of the Palestinian preventative security forces in Jerusalem, it added.
Elsewhere in the occupied territory, IOF invaded Lemrah neighborhood in the northern West Bank city of Jenin overnight, witnesses said.
IOF also detained two Palestinians in Hebron overnight. One of the detainees was wounded in the raid.
Palestinian security sources further confirmed that an IOF undercover unit kidnapped two Palestinians in the southern West Bank village of Rashida, west of Hebron.
Israel’s constant raids and detentions are undermining peace efforts and threatening to flare violence once again after a short period of calm following Palestinian factions announcement of a temporary cease fire on June 29th, Palestinians say.

<font size=0>Source: Scoop</font>

So long as I keep this pathetic eye-for-an-eye hatred out of my homeland the extremists of both Palestine and Israel can get all the martyrdom and victory they could possibly desire. Ridiculous, just f**king ridiculous.

And added to that the mothers' pride of raising their children to become martyrs. I mean raising your child to become a suicide bomber? [img]graemlins/idontagreeatall.gif[/img]

And I'm not sure that the majority wants peace. After all the numbers participating in the funeral marches screaming for Israeli blood looks endless on teh TV screen. The younger generations perhaps but I doubt that the older will ever forgive or forget. Until their removed from power (on both sides) there will probably never be any tranquility in that region. :(

<font color=orange>I heard this morning that the Homicide Bomber that did this was a 29 Year old School Teacher with a family and two children. He was a couple of months shy of his master degree. Lovely lesson to be teaching all of his students. :( His wife came out soon after the bombing and talked about how proud she was that he was now a martyr. Must have been a bastard to live with, if she's glad he's gone (that last, was a bit of irony). I guess she realized that 72 virgins could satisfy him a lot more than she could. (another bit of irony) :(

[ 08-20-2003, 08:24 AM: Message edited by: Sir Taliesin ]

NY TIMES: 8/20/03
_______________

Palestinian Leader Orders the Arrest of Islamic Militants
By REUTERS

Filed at 12:14 p.m. ET

RAMALLAH, West Bank (Reuters) - The Palestinian prime minister ordered security services Wednesday to arrest militants behind a Jerusalem suicide bombing that killed 18 people and shattered a truce crucial to a U.S.-led peace plan.

Mahmoud Abbas, who also cut off contact with Islamic militant leaders, acted after Israel shelved its planned handover of occupied cities to Palestinian control, froze high-level talks and reimposed a clampdown on the West Bank.

With the troubled ``road map'' peace plan in jeopardy after Tuesday's bus bombing, Abbas also planned to convene his Cabinet to decide on other security measures against Islamic militants which his government has hitherto hesitated to take.

``There are clear instructions (given) to security forces to follow these people, find them, put them under arrest. We have to use our authority to contain this tough situation and to stop the negative developments,'' Information Minister Nabil Amr told reporters in Ramallah, West Bank seat of Palestinian government.

Israeli troops may have beaten Palestinian police to the punch, arresting 17 suspects in a raid into Hebron, the bomber's hometown, Israel radio said. The volatile West Bank city is largely under Israeli army occupation with Palestinian police sidelined.

Tuesday night, a 29-year-old Muslim cleric disguised as an ultra-Orthodox Jew blew himself up on a bus full of Jewish families returning from prayers at a Jerusalem shrine. Five children, including a baby girl, were among the 18 dead.

Hamas said it was avenging continued Israeli raids that have killed militants despite the seven-week-old cease-fire.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon convened top security aides to discuss the way ahead after the attack, a severe setback for a peace plan aimed at defusing a militant revolt and at granting Palestinians statehood in the West Bank and Gaza.

DIPLOMATIC PROCESS FROZEN

Israeli officials suggested any military response would be tempered by a desire to avoid further damage to the peace plan.

But Sharon's office said he told President Bush in a telephone call that ``as long as the Palestinians don't act in a serious manner to wipe out terror, there can be no progress in diplomatic routes.''

The attack was a stinging embarrassment to Abbas' moderate government and its stated effort to stanch violence to qualify for a state, for it came as he was talking with militant faction chiefs in Gaza about firming up the flimsy truce.

It was unclear how Abbas would crack down on militants, as Palestinian security forces in the West Bank have been greatly weakened by Israeli offensives. Recent militant attacks have emanated from cities under Israel's military control.

Abbas has also struggled to wrest effective power over the security organs from President Yasser Arafat, who has been accused by Israel and the United States of fomenting bloodshed -- a charge he denies -- and banished from U.S.-led peacemaking.

Abbas condemned the bus blast, saying it ``does not serve the interests of the Palestinian people.'' He called off a scheduled visit to Norway next week, Norwegian officials said.

He has denounced previous bombings in similar terms. But to date he has shied away from breaking up the popular militant groups, citing a fear of civil war.

Israel says Abbas must start neutralizing militants before Israeli forces can ease military operations.

The circular arguments reflect the profound mistrust that has bogged down the road map since its June 4 launch.

Hamas and Islamic Jihad insisted they stood by the cease-fire, as they said after two bombings a week ago. But they said further Israeli raids were provoking reprisals

Here is a short definition of beliefs of the Major Palestinian Militant Groups


On June 29, the three principal Palestinian militant groups declared a moratorium on killing Israelis anywhere, including soldiers and Jewish settlers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip.




Hamas

Hamas derives its name from the Arabic acronym for Islamic Resistance Movement, although the word also means "zeal." It is the largest of three militant Palestinian groups, all of which are on the State Department's list of terrorist organizations.

Hamas was founded in 1988 in the early days of the first intifada, or uprising. That year it published a charter voicing its opposition to the Palestinian Liberation Organization's acceptance of the state of Israel. The group has articulated different goals at different times, sometimes calling for an end to the Israeli occupation, and at others for destruction of the Jewish state.

Hamas has conducted many of the attacks against Israeli targets, both military and civilian. Among these was the June 2001 suicide bombing outside a Tel Aviv nightclub, killing 21 people. The organization also provides social services in Palestinian communities.

Islamic Jihad

The Palestinian Islamic Jihad has its roots in the Muslim Brotherhood. It was founded not long after the 1979 Iranian revolution, from which it drew inspiration. The group is secretive and organizes itself along paramilitary lines. The group believes that peace with Israel is not possible and its leaders have said the Jewish state is an usurpation of lands that they believe rightfully belong to Palestinians. Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the November 2002 attack in Hebron that killed a dozen Israeli soldiers and security officials as they walked near a Jewish settlement, as well as numerous suicide bombings.

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades

Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades is a violent offshoot of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, although Fatah has publicly disavowed al-Aqsa's actions. The group, which arose during the current intifada, takes its name from the principal mosque in Jerusalem.

Among its goals are the eviction of Israeli troops from the West Bank and Gaza Strip and the establishment of a Palestinian state there. Its original actions were attacks on Israeli soldiers in the occupied territories, but later it carried out suicide attacks on Israeli civilians.

[ 08-20-2003, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: *\Conan/* ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
I think that I have to go along with a modified version of what TL first proposed...ie let Israel erase all traces of Palistinians/Palestine from the map. But first....set a deadline. Set a date and make it known to the palestinian people plain and clear..either get out there and crush these extremists (with or without israels help) or we will have to just go into unrestricted war mode and settle things once and for all. Sure there would be pockets of resistance for some time but eventually they would be starved out and Israel would be able to better watch its new borders to control any influx of arms or supplies to the remaining few palistinian nut jobs.

Of course this will only work if you just want to settle things once and for all.
</font>

Yeah. Peace will be resolved, all bombings will cease, and a new Palestinian state will be formed by XX/XX/XXXX (suggest: 1/1/2005) or the US/Israel will simply eradicate the peoples of Palestine for failure to conform to humanity's basic levels of social competence. :D

Of course, we'd have to get Israel to QUIT SETTLING or it just would not be fair. ;) Roping Sharon's land-grab machine would take one heck of a cowboy. Dubya can't do it, and the Marlboro man died of lung cancer, so.... :shrug:

Plus, this would really result in a Muslim v. Christian/Secular clash everywhere on the planet, as most of those pay at least lip service, if not homage, to the Palestinian plight as the root cause. Of course, maybe it's going to come to this no matter what we do. :(

You guys just solved the problems in the middle east. :D

Nobel prize anyone ? :D

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00"> Welcome back Magik!!!

While you were away I was using your fonts for a time. People thought it was you posting liberal ideas so they had to go back a reread the post. I thought it was funny, but the crazy mods were going to ban me so I had to stop. [img]graemlins/evillaughter1.gif[/img]

Your fonts are protected.

Anyway back on topic I say let them take out the fanatics at least. </font>

[ 08-20-2003, 02:28 PM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

They need a good natural disaster...get everybody working together for a common goal. Small asteroid perhaps?

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Pritchke: I think the concern was more to do with the appearence of mocking and ridicule perhaps rather than protecting the font and color, but Im glad I have them to come back to.

TL: [img]smile.gif[/img] There may have been a teensey bit of sarcasm in my middle east peace plan. But really...if there are no palistinians left....whats to fight over?

Seriously I do not personally advocate genocide but Im seriously not seeing any other solution to this. As TL pointed out..these people have been at it for centuries. Not a happy situation but necessity is some times a harsh mistress.
</font>

Yeah.. the same would be true if Hitler had succeeded yeah?

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Hmmm this has merrit....lets see...if we can maneuver a small asteroid into crashing down right on the temple mount....wiping out most of the population in that part of the world. Now how do we manage this?
</font>

Yeah.. the same would be true if Hitler had succeeded yeah? </font>[/QUOTE]<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Speaking in a strictly technical basis...no. Hitler would only have destroyed a percentage of the Jewish peoples that later relocated back to land givento them by the League of Nations and Britain.

You do realize that the Israelies actually have a legal right to Israel, and as for the land they seized after the land grant by the LON and Britain it is completely understandable after the historical attacks they have suffered by by the combined might of the Arab League...not once but three times. (well Egypt did declare a peace after the second massive attack.)</font>

[ 08-20-2003, 03:14 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Hmmm this has merrit....lets see...if we can maneuver a small asteroid into crashing down right on the temple mount....wiping out most of the population in that part of the world. Now how do we manage this?
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]I meant to say we not they

They don't have a right to the three areas they seized with their preemptive attack of the Arab League in '67. Gaza, Golan, West Bank. The areas where the term "settlements" is being used to describe what they're doing are those areas that are not theirs by any legal right other than annexation -- which is no legal right.

Maybe the US could show everybody how unbiased and fair it is by wiping out Palestine, Israel and any country that touches those two. That way Prez Shrub could say he has ended the terrorist threat while at the same time telling Muslims that he agrees that Israel is an illegal state. If we use the missles from a Trident submarine the muslims and jews will only have to wait a couple of more centuries before the radiation level dies down enough for them to go back to killing each other over the land.

Time to let the PIT BULL off the chain ;)

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Hmmm this has merrit....lets see...if we can maneuver a small asteroid into crashing down right on the temple mount....wiping out most of the population in that part of the world. Now how do we manage this?
</font> </font>[/QUOTE]We could fly two shuttles up and land on the asteriod. By drilling into the centre, and dropping a nuclear explosive...wait...nope, scratch that, it only works for saving earth from and asteriod, not destroying it.

They don't have a right to the three areas they seized with their preemptive attack of the Arab League in '67. Gaza, Golan, West Bank. The areas where the term "settlements" is being used to describe what they're doing are those areas that are not theirs by any legal right other than annexation -- which is no legal right. </font>[/QUOTE]I'd have to disagree there TL. In a land where power and strength are about the only thing understood, He who has the power to take and hold, it's theirs.

I know what you're trying to say John D., and you have a point re: attitudes in the region. However, Israel exists only because the League and later the UN gave it land and rights to a nation, so it doesn't make sense for it to ignore the rules of the UN. Which rules state that conquest is not allowed. While this was the historical way to obtain new lands, it just ain't so anymore. Legally, that is. Of course, President Jackson (or was it Adams?) once upon a time refused to enforce a ruling by the Marshall Supreme Court, saying "Let Marshall try to enforce his ruling from the bench," and everyone (including Marshall) got the point -- the rule of law means nothing without enforcement. And, Israel has been chastised and wrist-slapped, but never enforced.

They don't have a right to the three areas they seized with their preemptive attack of the Arab League in '67. Gaza, Golan, West Bank. The areas where the term "settlements" is being used to describe what they're doing are those areas that are not theirs by any legal right other than annexation -- which is no legal right. </font>[/QUOTE]<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">

TL Look at what I said please [img]smile.gif[/img] I said they have the right to the land they were given by the LON and UK. I said that the land they seized during the attacks by the Arab League is "UNDERSTANDABLE" Any nation that has suffered major incursions by it's neighbors on multiple occasions will "Understandably" want to put a buffer zone between "them and us".....I know you are being worked hard now, but you are usually better at attention to detail [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Well...if he used ALL the missiles on that Trident sub, there won't be any of them left to start a fight again later....of course, we would have to get some specialist drilling equipment to drill through the hard glassy surface to get at the oil that would be left behind....
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<font color = lightgreen>I'm not surprised; I've said this before (it's the 5th post down), as have other people.

The two sides don't want to coexist, so why don't they just admit it? Let them fight it out to the bitter end and the last one standing wins. Since that is all they understand and they obviously choose not to try any other way then I say let them have what they want.</font>

Look, if we can pull Saddam out of Kuwait, we can sure as hell pull Israel out of Palestine. If we can partition and keep apart Turkish and Greek cypriots, we can darn well do the same with Israel and Palestine.

Look, if we can pull Saddam out of Kuwait, we can sure as hell pull Israel out of Palestine. If we can partition and keep apart Turkish and Greek cypriots, we can darn well do the same with Israel and Palestine. </font>[/QUOTE]<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
To quote some other people...thats none of our business..it's between Israel and the Palistinians. I think Azred has it right...let them go at it and the last one standing wins...of course since Israel has pretty much kicked butt and taken names when fighting the Arab League...it wouldn't be much of a fight against the Palistinians.
</font>