Well, it's almost over, just thought i'd see if there's anyone interrested in it. I think Armstrong is gonna win his fifth in a row, unless he falls again.

Last night i saw an interview with Gerrie Kneteman that got me thinking though. He said the Ullrich should have made his move after Armstrong went down yesterday. I know Ullrich must have felt he owed it to Armstrong to hold back, since Armstrong did the same thing for him two years ago, and it says alot about Ullrich as a human being that he didn't take advantage of the situation.

BUT....

The way kneteman saw it makes sense to me too. Armstrong was riding way too close to the spectators on the right side of the road, so it's nobody's fault but his own. So Kneteman said no matter what the history is between the both of them, he would give it a go. Mistakes will always be made in the Tour, it's all part of the game.

He has a point, but Ullrich decided not to do it. Stupid ? Good sportsmanship ?

It's not over yet, but i think Ullrich won't get an opportunity like that again.

I thought the sportsmanship Jan showed was wonderful. It just shows that it's never a bad idea to do something nice because it all comes back to you in the end - Armstrong when he stopped for Jan's flat tyre, and then Jan yesterday. I'm hoping Lance wins; I'm not a big Jan fan, though I do admire the way he's come back so strongly after his past couple of terrible years. It's a wonderful tour though! Much better than last year when it wasn't all that close.

The worst thing from an Australian point of view is that Cadel Evans, who is capable of winning the thing, broke his collarbone a few weeks before it started so he couldn't ride. He was going to be a Telekon boy and everything! :( . I'm hoping Baden can hold onto the green jersey though this year.

If Ullrich had attacked at that moment, not only would Armstrong have beaten him either way, Ullrich would also have public opinion against him - if I was Ullrich, I wouldn't have wanted to make a difference that way either. Especially considering the spanking session which followed, Jan did by far the wisest thing at that point, winning reputation points for showing good sportsmanship on the way instead of losing twice, figuratively speaking. ;)

[ 07-22-2003, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Yes that's a good point. When Lance attacked later, Jan couldn't go with him. Compared to the day before when Jan attacked and got about 30 seconds advantage but Lance pulled it back to 7.

Yeah, it seems that Jan was "empty" anyway, so he probably even couldn't take advantage if he wanted to.

But still, i think Kneteman made a good point. Others probably wouldn't be so merciful, even if they'd lose credit in the public opinion. I wonder what Beloki would have done in a situation like that. After all, the tour is not about building up good relationships, it's about winning.

It was in fact Tyler Hamilton, Armstrongs friend and former teammate, who gestured to Ullrich and the others to slow down, but I think Ullrich would have done so anyway.
It is an unspoken "rule" that if the yellow jersey is in trouble I.E. goes down or having mechanical problems, none attacks at least temporarily, and so it should be out of respect for the one who wear it.
Anyway, it's good to see that kind of sportsmanship and fairness in an otherwise cynical world.

C

It's not only the Yellow Jersey if you're in a group with someone it's accepted that you don't attack if they fall.

Now I don't really agree with this. Yes he was riding close to the spectators. But the woman was leaning out to see them, and could see what path they were taking, and was slow in moving back to let him through. I think when the spectators are able to get so close to the riders it's their responsibility to make sure they don't impede them in any way. Most sports have big barricades up so the athletes are safe. They're really very vulnerable on those high mountains with so many people so excited. Lance couldn't have realised her hand was going to be still sticking out in his way.

What can i say ? It's just not smart to ride too close to the side of the road. there will always be curious fans, who lean over a little too much. How many times did it happen that a cycler crashed into a nosy spectator ? Especially on the Champs Elysee. i know these guys have probably other things on their mind, but trying to stay in the middle of the road wouldn't harm them.

But on the Champs Elysée, there are at least fences and other kinds of barricades safeguarding the entire course...

On the mountain summits the crowd dictate where the side of the road is. If the riders move to the middle the crowd follow them.

Back in 1934, ANtonin Magne was the leader of the national team, and one day the chain of his bicycle broke - René Vietto then rode back to him and gave him his own bicycle.

Who would do such a thing nowadays ? ;)

I always wondered why the police allows all these people to stand on the road. I understand they can't control the whole route, but more security measures wouldn't hurt anybody. Sometimes spectators suddenly jump in front of a cycler to give him a cheer or whatever, but the cycler could just as easy go down because of such an action. I never understood why people do these things, first of all you make a fool of yourself, and second, i doubt it really helps the cyclers. I think if i were a cycler it would annoy the living daylight out of me.

about the sportsmanship among the riders, it's a beautiful thing of course, but i don't really understand it. I think it's a little naive to be honest. From what i understand from some interviews, a lot of the guys don't even like Armstrong, some even openly throw mud at each other in the press. There's a lot of rivalry in the sport (which is good of course) but some go beyond that.

So if the man in the yellow jersey goes down, due to his own fault, why shouldn't there be taken advantage of ? It's all part of the game if you ask me. When someone who's NOT wearing yellow goes down, do they also wait for him ? I don't think so.

Let me put it like this, if during a footballmatch a player is dribbling the ball, and he trips, should the opposite team wait until he's back on his feet and can continue his dribble ? Hell no, they take control over the ball and seize the momentum. You make a mistake, you pay the price. And as far as i'm concerned, the same goes for the cycling sport. Accidents WILL happen, that's also the charm of any sport. If Sjeng Schalken wasn't injured, he might have won Wimbledon this year. But should his opponent have said "look, i won't play you unless you're healthy, i wanna be fair" ?

On the mountain summits the crowd dictate where the side of the road is. If the riders move to the middle the crowd follow them. </font>[/QUOTE]well, imo opinion it shouldn't be allowed. They need to get more security along the route, if that's possible (financially). It's dangerous, for both the spectators and the cyclers. When i'm in a stadium, and i have the nerves to step on the pitch, the police will beat me up. Fans don't belong on the playground, it's bound to go wrong sooner or later.

I believe it still happens on occasion that when the captain of the team has material problems or a flat tire, and there's no replacement bicycle nearby, one of his lesser teammates will give him his own bicycle wheel or even his entire bike. And it also still happens on occasion that lesser teammates are slowing down or even turning around to go and help their team captain. The turning around bit is getting less and less frequent, though; nowadays, most cyclists all have communication devices which enables them to talk to the leader of the team who's surveying the entire situation from his car; and it's easier to anticipate and deal with possible problems a lot faster.

[ 07-24-2003, 05:38 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

And we have a winner !!!

finally, i thought we couldn't do it anymore. Every Dutchy practically grows up on a bicycle, we should dominate the whole friggin thing. :D

Pity most Dutchies replace their bicycle with frellin' scooters once they're sixteen, those spoilt brats...

Well Jan wasn't wearing yellow when Lance stopped when he had a flat tyre (I think?). The peloton always slows down when people stop to relieve themselves. At the time as well, Jan and co couldn't have known it was his own fault (if indeed it was - I don't think it was). That's a good point about the 'side' of the road Donut. On that very stage there were pictures of the leading guys going over the summit and being engulfed by the crowd. You could barely see the riders the people were closing in so much.

I think it's a matter of perspective. Some people feel that to win is everything. And I definitely think that is a driving force. But some people feel that to win with honour is better. There's a lot of talk in cricket for instance, that the modern day players should go back to the old way of walking when they think they're out, instead of waiting for the umpire and hoping he didn't hear or notice or have a good enough view of the play. They are going by the idea that winning is the most important thing, and besides, everyone gets poor decisions and lucky breaks so it all evens out. So too could you argue that everyone in the tour has fallen or had a problem with their machine and it would all even out for their opponents to seize on the advantage whenever it happens. But the way they do it, it all evens out as well, because everyone observes the protocol of waiting while they recover, but they can do it with honour, and when you win, you know it was because you were the best, not because your opponent had a flat tyre. Naive to be sportsmanlike while playing sport? When else?

Btw I just wanted to ask that if people are going to mention stuff that's happened in the tour could you put a spoiler tag on it? We don't get the tour live here (and it would be the middle of the night anyway), so I watch the highlights show which is on about 12 hours after the stage has ended. I like to not know the result when I watch it [img]smile.gif[/img]

Considder it done Aelia, and you Do have a valid point. However, i think i have a valid point as well. It's a matter of how you see things. Sure, the overall appreciation Jan must have felt, will make him feel good about himself, no doubt. But the feeling would be even better if climbed the stage at the champs Elysee as number one.

Being considdered a good, fair and straight forward sportsman, wouldn't give me the satisfaction i was looking for, IF i were a competitor who'd end his career emptyhanded.

It's nice to see that honor is still around.No real athelete would take a cheap shot to win,especially take advantage of a mishap regarding the yellow jersey!No class in that!Jan Ulrick is as great a sportsman as Lance is.neither would take an advantage like that.Can't wait to see Sat time trial!!

I considder Diego Maradona a great athlete (in the past), yet in an important worldcup match he cheated, he scored with his hand. The whole world could see that it shouldn't have been a goal, but the referee didn't. Even after the game while watching the footage he wouldn't admit he cheated. He made god his henchman.

Still, he was a REAL good athlete. But he cheated, like any commom human. It's in our blood.

[ 07-24-2003, 07:57 PM: Message edited by: johnny ]

Almost forgot about Tyler Hamilton!! This guys got balls !! 6th place with a fractured collar bone! And a stage win the other day with a 90 mile solo breakaway what a ride!!

Well, like I said, different people have different perspectives. It would give YOU satisfaction to be on the podium no matter how you got there (within reason obviously ;) ) but clearly it would not give Jan, or Lance for that matter, the same satisfaction. Good for them. Good for you too, I'm just saying it's not naive to have a different idea of an honourable victory [img]smile.gif[/img]

I would argue that while we might remember Maradonna as a great athlete and an amazing proponent of football prowess, the overwhelming image and memory we have of him now is that hand of God incident - which has sullied his name forever more. I can think of many examples of athletes like that, who, despite amazing achievements are never mentioned without reference to an unsavoury incident in their past. Richard Virenque for instance for all his heroics this tour couldn't be talked about without the commentators talking about the drug scandal of a few years ago. I imagine Jan merely wanted his second tour win to be a triumph of his skill and talent, not with the footnote always to be 'after capitalising on a fall from race leader Armstrong'.

I agree John! That was a super effort. I loved the scenes of him and Lance embracing after the stage as well [img]smile.gif[/img]

Yeah! Especially with all those mountains you get to practice on!

Yeah! Especially with all those mountains you get to practice on! </font>[/QUOTE]Yeah, Holland is famous for it's mountains. :D