<h3>Italian's Sharp Tongue Punctures Image of United Europe</h3>
By RICHARD BERNSTEIN
BERLIN, July 2 — Stung by criticism, the Italian prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, suggested today to a German member of the European Parliament that he would make an excellent leader of a Nazi concentration camp.
The remark, made on the day after Mr. Berlusconi took over the rotating presidency of the European Union, enraged the German Socialist, Martin Schulz, set off a diplomatic furor and suggested that the swashbuckling Italian leader might produce more division than reconciliation in a Europe grappling with several difficult issues.
Those issues include adoption of a new constitution as the 15-member union expands next year to 25 members, and relations with the United States, which were frayed by the bitter debates leading up to the Iraq war. Mr. Berlusconi has stood far closer to President Bush than the German and French leaders.
Mr. Berlusconi, whose combative, bristling style and control of much of the Italian media have made him a controversial figure across the Continent, was giving a routine inaugural policy speech today to the European Parliament in Strasbourg, France, when Mr. Schulz questioned his suitability for his new post.
The German legislator specifically raised Mr. Berlusconi's sponsorship of a new immunity law in Italy at a time when he is on trial in Milan on bribery charges.
"Mr. Schulz," Mr. Berlusconi said in reply, cocking his head to one side and smiling, "I know there is a man in Italy producing a film on the Nazi concentration camps. I would like to suggest you for the role of leader. You would be perfect."
In response, Mr. Schulz said: "Mr. Berlusconi, if I understood him correctly, invited me to appear as the commandant of a concentration camp." He went on to say it was very hard for him to accept that someone capable of such a remark should lead the European Union.
Italy's ambassador in Berlin and Germany's ambassador in Rome were summoned by their host governments to receive formal protests. Germany quickly issued a statement labeling Mr. Berlusconi's remark unacceptable.
But for the European Union, the deeper significance may be as an augury of what lies ahead during the six months of Mr. Berlusconi's presidency.
"The incident and resulting breakdown hang in the air," the daily Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung commented as news of Mr. Berlusconi's exchange with Mr. Schulz began rocketing through Europe. "If the coming months are only occupied with dumb provocations and vain character assassination, it is going to be difficult to move forward the European project. Being reasonable is not everybody's thing."
The greeting Mr. Berlusconi got in the parliamentary hall even before the exchange with Mr. Schulz presaged the polarizing effect many believe he will have.
Placards held aloft by leftist legislators read, in several languages, "Nobody is above the law" and "No Godfather for Europe."
Even before the session, Mr. Berlusconi's assumption of the union presidency had received enormous media attention in Europe, most of it unfavorable.
The most persistent charge, made for years, has to do with conflict of interest. As Italy's biggest media entrepreneur — he owns the country's biggest publishing house and three national television stations — Mr. Berlusconi has been widely accused in his own country of using his political power to favor legislation beneficial to his business interests.
Two weeks ago, Mr. Berlusconi's political allies in the Italian Parliament passed a law that exempts the top five serving government officials, including the prime minister, from criminal prosecution. The adoption of the law put a stop to the trial of Mr. Berlusconi, already under way in Milan, though the court holding the trial has challenged the constitutionality of the legislation.
In addition to being the first sitting Italian prime minister to testify as a defendant in a criminal case, Mr. Berlusconi has aroused the ire of the European left by his open admiration for President Bush and by his support of the Iraq war. His relations with some European leaders, particularly Gerhard Schröder of Germany and Jacques Chirac of France, are said to be very tense.
But while in the past Mr. Berlusconi has mostly been an issue for Italians, who have twice elected him prime minister, the prospect of Italy's presidency of the European Union sharply ratcheted up the negative views in the European press.
The cover story in Der Spiegel on Monday showed a picture of Mr. Berlusconi with the caption, "The Godfather," and contained this comment: "At home he dismantles justice, subjugates television and has laws tailored to his needs, and now he will represent Europe."
The Economist, which before his electoral victory in Italy two years ago ran an article titled, "Unfit to Lead Italy," more recently ran another with the headline, "Unfit to Lead Europe."
To counter the negative attention he has been getting, Mr. Berlusconi published a letter today in four newspapers in Italy, Germany, France and Spain in which he shot back at his critics. "No one is in a position to give lessons in morality to a government elected by the Italians," he wrote.
Mr. Berlusconi refused to retract his comment to Mr. Schulz, saying it was meant in an ironic way.
"It was the way in which he spoke," Mr. Berlusconi later said of Mr. Schulz. "It was his gestures. He attacked me and was extremely offensive about me and my country. I replied to his insults ironically with a joke."
<h6>Source: New York Times</h6>

[ 07-03-2003, 04:56 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Yeah I just read about that on the Net. What a complete and utter idiot. I hope there will be some retributions for this behavior! The man shuold by a dictionary and look up the word irony.

It isn't for nothing that his official spokesman has been renamed 'the misspokesman from the office of retractions' - all he's doing is trying to smooth over the rows that break out every time Berlusconi open his mouth. :rolleyes:

[ 07-03-2003, 06:42 AM: Message edited by: Ar-Cunin ]

Exactly what i expected from the EU, we can get along sooooo well. :D

Yay us. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think it's great. Imagine someone having the nerve to call a German a nazi. Only the leftist Germans are allowed to call others that.

Yeah, but the one who said it, is as close as it gets to neo fascisme. It's the story of the famous pot and kettle.

Excuse me??? What does that have to do with nerves? Why should one call a person nazi only because he is a German? I hope I misunderstood this and hence overreacted.

Edit: I doubt that the German politicain in question sympathizes with the nazi movements. AFAIK most German seriously frown upon such coalitions nowadays.

[ 07-03-2003, 10:27 AM: Message edited by: WillowIX ]

Heard this on the radio on the way home last night. I think this provides a perfect example of the power the nazi label still has in the Europe and why invoking it in a casual fashion is in bad taste.

What the European papers say
What the Italian papers say
Schröder calls for Berlusconi apology

The German should be compared to a nazi. He was doing what so many leftists seem to excell at, and that is believeing that if you are on the right you are some kind of monster. Just look at Johnny. Since Berlusconi is on the right, according to him, he must be a fascist. I havn't seen the guy marching around in a black uniform leading a bunch of goons around to martial music.

And when you get down to it, the Italian fascists were a joke.

Ehh you do know that nazis were extreme right-wingers right? Although their party in the beginning held some socialistic viewpoints it was probably the most anti-communistic party ever. Fascism was to the left of national socialism. I would love to see what sources of information names the German politician a nazi.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">

Willow, as has been pointed out so very many times to me by our knowledgeable members from accross the pond...Over there Left and Right have whole different meanings than they do on this side of the pond.</font>

You have a weird view of how a fascist looks dude. I based my words upon what i've read about his ideas on foreigners in Italy and what their position in their society is. that's why i came to the conclusion that Berlusconi is not just a rightwinged politician, but a little more than that.

True - Berlusconi is also the person who blurted out nonsense like

"I'm sorry for having said Communists eat babies. But if you want, I can organize a conference in which I will prove Communists have really eaten babies."

or, during EU talks whether the European Food Safety Agency should be placed in Parma, Italy or Helsinki, Finland:

"Parma is synonymous with good cuisine. The Finns don't even know what prosciutto is. I cannot accept this."

This would have been funny if his near invincible position of power in the Italy wasn't so painfully disturbing and frightening at the same time - not only does he own a large part of the media who are *supposed* to report neutrally about him and his decisions, there's also a law now in Italy which passed recently, and litterally placed him "above the law" (!), just to keep him from being criminally persecuted. :rolleyes:

[ 07-03-2003, 03:35 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Berlusconi is a fool.
A dangerous fool, the only good he will do is hopefully to unite more people actively into fighting that sort of stupidity from future politicians.

He is a poor excuse himself having people in his government who wanted their fleet to open fire upon refugee boats, and well. He should of anyone check his own sympatis before calling a german a Nazi, he should remember what the Italians finally did to the former Facists.

Khazadman. Before calling anyone a lefty, perhaps you should use your google a bit more creatively and check out why so many people think that Berlusconi is pretty close to a Facist. And as Johnny mentioned, check out the politics too while you are at it.

So let me get this straight. If a leftist critizises a right-wing politician he should be called nazi (although he is none) because this is what he's always calling right-wingers and therefore deserves it.

That makes NO sense at all.

1.) "Nazi" is a very serious and offensive accusation to people from Europe (we had a whole "Fascism" thread about that two months ago)
2.) It makes no sense to call a Socialist or even a Communist "Nazi" for they aren't.
3.) Berlusconi himself is very much involved with the Italian neo-fascists

4.) The Italian fascists were NOT a joke. It's and was common practice in countries like Italy, Romania, Austria and even the GDR to act as if their citizens had never commited any war crimes in WWII because only the Germans were really nazis. Historical facts tell different stories. About Austrian villagers literally hunting down fugitives like rabbits. About Italian militias killing priests, ...

Berlusconi made that remark because he cannot defend his position on sensible grounds as he knows that what he does is unlawful and immoral. So he suggested the German being a Nazi persecuting him because HE is evil not Berlusconi.

He's a fool. Yes. But he's not dangerous: he talks big, acts big, but cannot really do anything: the Italian prime minister has really no power compared to his fellow premiers in other countries - he's just one vote in the government, and cannot do anything without the backup of the other members. Also the parliament has a greater power than in other countries, and that acts as control. Luckily.

But if the Parliament is in control, how did the bit quoted below happen at all, then? As I consider it to be quite a disturbing development, to be honest.

[ 07-04-2003, 02:44 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

And while we're on the subject...

<h3>Berlusconi denies apologising for Nazi jibe</h3>
Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has insisted he has not apologised for comparing a German politician to a Nazi guard, saying only that he regretted his words had been misunderstood.
He said the tone of his remark was "in perfect harmony" with the heckling by Martin Schulz, a German member of the European Parliament.
The Italian leader triggered uproar in the parliament on Wednesday, when he suggested Mr Schulz would be perfectly cast as a Nazi concentration camp guard in a forthcoming film.
German Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder has said he considered the matter "closed" after Mr Berlusconi told him he regretted the incident.
But the speaker of the European Parliament, Pat Cox, said Mr Berlusconi should apologise to parliamentary members as the incident "happened on the floor of the European Parliament, not in Berlin".
"There is a need for clarification by Berlusconi with the European Parliament in order to bring final closure to this matter," Mr Cox's spokesman told Reuters news agency.
Mr Berlusconi indicated that he would not apologise, telling reporters: "As far as the European Parliament is concerned, the situation is the same."
He said he had telephoned Mr Schroeder to express his regret that his comments were "interpreted badly".
"I did not offer apologies," he said. "I expressed regret that what I said in jest and irony was misunderstood."

'Back to business'
Mr Berlusconi repeated his assertion that he had found Mr Schulz's criticism of his business and political conduct insulting and his response was made as a "counter-weight".
He had rounded on Mr Schulz when the MEP referred to an alleged conflict of interest between the political role of Italy's richest man and his extensive media empire.
"I know there is a man producing a film on the Nazi concentration camps," Mr Berlusconi exclaimed. "I shall put you forward for the role of Kapo (guard chosen from among the prisoners) - you would be perfect."
Mr Berlusconi was appearing at a news conference with EU Commission President Romano Prodi - a fellow Italian and his arch-rival - following their first meeting setting out the goals for Italy's six-month presidency.
Mr Berlusconi's outburst has marred the start of Italy's six-month presidency and raised concern over his fitness to lead Europe through a period of enlargement and reform.
The BBC's Rome correspondent, David Willey, says Mr Berlusconi's gaffe continues to reverberate on the domestic Italian political scene.
The state broadcaster, RAI, has been accused by the left-wing opposition of toning down the coverage of Mr Berlusconi's blunder.
<h6>Source: BBC</h6>

The problem is, "fascism" is a misused word. You see? same thread page, two different meanings: BErlusconi has never killed a priest, and never will (a communist, maybe, never a priest :D ). So I guess johnny meant something different from Faceman.
Also fascism and nazism are not the same thing: both of them share a totalitarian view, but they differ in some major aspects and they should be considered separately.

Berlusconi cannot be considered a neo fascist for some simple reasons:

fascism has always theorized nationalization of the strategic industries and massive intervention of the state in the economy, while Berlusconi has neo liberal economic theories.
fascism tended to concentrate political power in national institutions, Berlusconi was elected promising devolution of at least part of that power to the regions (Tuscany, Sicily, etc.)
fascism exalted militarism, Berlusconi doesn't.

Berlusconi is conservative, right-wing, populist, and perhaps many other things (e.g. a fool), but calling him fascist is historically wrong. For the reasons stated above, Chirac or Bush are more fascist than Berlusconi.

Btw:
Fascists never killed priests because the Catholic church has always looked if not favourably, at least neutrally towards fascism. There is no reason why any fascist should have killed a priest, unless it happened in the dark days of german invasion in late WWII, when pretty many crimes were committed on either side, as usually happens in civil wars.

[ 07-04-2003, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: B_part ]

The trial to Berlusconi wasn't stopped. It was suspended and it will continue when Berlusconi will cease to be Prime Minister, which will happen before or after. The same suspension of trial would be applied to the other 4 highest authorities of the State (the two presidents of the Parliament, the president of the Republic, the president of the Supreme Court)
That law was needed in Italy. Following the corruption trials in 1991 every guarantee which partially shielded institutional figures from the justice was removed. Before those days, to prosecute a member of the parliament or the government, special procedures had to be followed. Afterwards, anyone could accuse the President of the Republic of anything and the Police would have to go and arrest him, maybe the same day he stepped out of the plane returning from an international visit.
Every democracy has special laws to protect the representatives of the people from immotivate trial. In Italy that law had to be restored, and in fact it was first drafted by Maccanico, a Senator of the main opposition party (DS).

Obviously the push Berlusconi and his cohalition gave to the law wasn't a coincidence.

My personal opinion, personal mind, is that we have two guilty parts here: BErlusconi who wants to avoid trial and the judges, who are clearly using the trial as a political weapon. The evidence for both things are really overwhelming. I don't know if Berlusconi is guilty, and I cannot know. I don't condone his behaviour, nor his stupid boutades. But I also fear the judges are more dangerous to democracy than Berlusconi.

Ah, alright... And what about the law that says evidence gathered in other countries can't be considered by Italian courts, which was introduced right after Switzerland passed information about Berlusconi's money activities there to Berlusconi's judges?

And what about the law Berlusconi introduced that "permits a defendant to ask for a hearing in a new location if there is a "legitimate suspicion" that the judges dealing with the trial are biased." A law that just popped up after Berlusconi realized he won't get nowhere with the judges in Milan?

The law about international documents doesn't say that. It simply says that those documents must either be original or certified explicitly as exact copies of the original. Before that any photocopy of unknown origin could be used against the defendant.

The second law you mentioned reintroduced a law principle which had been abrogated in the 90 because of those corruption charges. Nobody had objected to that until before.
But my question is, if the evidence against BErlusconi is so strong, why should anything change if you move the trial to another tribunal?

Anyway, as I said before, it's no surprise Berlusconi thought those laws were so urgent. But as I also said before, the judges are clearly acting with a political agenda.

Both my examples: The "Mühlviertler Hasenjagd" and an execution of a group of priests under martial law happened in the late years of the war when everything was even more chaotic.

Pretty many things happened in those days: Fascists killing partizans and jews(and everybody backing them, including women, priests and old people), partisans killing fascists, communist partisans killing non communist partisans, and Nazi killing all of the above.

Those were sad days indeed.

Civil wars uncover the beast in all men.