Breaking news from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wor...00/1971423.stm

EDIT: Apologies for the spelling of his name. :(

[ 05-06-2002, 12:48 PM: Message edited by: Donut ]

That sucks..I don't even know him but, thats bad..mm'kay?

Edited due to my idiocy and warped mind :( Sorry.

[ 05-06-2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]

Mr Fortuyn provoked public indignation by calling for the Netherlands' borders to be closed to foreigners and by describing Islam as a 'backward' religion.

He made a bold maneuver and paid the ultimate price .
May he rest in peace.

I know this is bad for asking, but I don't watch much t.v, but who was he and what does/did he exactly do?? *knows theres a shun coming on, clenches and get's ready for it*

This is a bad, bad day for democracy. He made some bold statements, and not even near that of le Pen, and he is problably killed for it. Unbelievable.

I'm having trouble describing how much that statement disgust me. :mad: What you're saying is that it is okay to kill your political opponants. [img]graemlins/1pissed.gif[/img]

Fortyun was not a 'nazi' - he was a right-wing politician (and openly homosexual) that fought ILLIGAL emigartion and crime

But of course you're right - only I don't like those damn commies - so why don't I go out and kill a some 'reds' and some anarcists (yes I'm being sarcastic)

[ 05-06-2002, 02:11 PM: Message edited by: Ar-Cunin ]

I agree, the only politcal movement in europe ever who killed political opponents were the nazis themself. I guess this guy feels aligned with them.

You make him sound much better than he really was, his ideas were a bit more radical than that. Even though "nazi" is way too harsh as well.
Nevertheless, a black page in the history of the Netherlands and democracy, absolutely... :(

[ 05-06-2002, 01:16 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

I wouldn't have voted for him, that for starters. But are you saying he was a nazi? With al due respect, you apperently don't know or realize what goes around in a "real" nazis head.

Edited because I'm a complete asshole.

[ 05-06-2002, 02:04 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]

you are comparing him to Hitler? Just say it out loud and think about what you said.

i can see a lot of riotting coming on in the next few days, someone is going to pay the price here, i'm afraid.

No, he wasn't, but he was as close as you could come.

I don't see what that has to do with the issue.

Along with legal immigrants... and yes, he wanted to fight crime, the same way the BNP do.

Why anarchists?? They aren't the same as commies, so I don't know why you included them.

I'm certainly not saying I advocate the killing of political enemies, but it happens, and someone is allowed to be relieved for that, not necessarily happy about it.

[ 05-06-2002, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: Talthyr Malkaviel ]

Disagree with their policies, protest openly against them and make people aware of their fascist views. But there is no place for political assassination in a democratic country.

I think democracy will pay the price. Good chance that he will be a martyr to a large part of the dutch population now, maybe all his ridiculous and hateful plans coul actually find a real basis now...

[ 05-06-2002, 01:29 PM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

Yeah, he didn't deserve to be shot, they could have just let things run.. he was only predicted about 15% anyway, less then Le Pen got.

I think democracy will pay the price. Good chance that he will be a martyr to a large part of the dutch population now, maybe all his ridiculous and hateful plans coul actually find a real basis now...</font>[/QUOTE]Well, I wouldn't say that large a part.

Jesus Christ Epona, how dare you say such a thing???
Yes, I agree with Groj the man was bad news, but don't you see how terrible this is? I'm shocked - because of what happened, mainly, but also shocked that you can say such a cruel and unnecessary thing. Oh well, I consider you a good friend and still do, you probably spoke in a misplaced attempt at humour, so....

Now listen. NOTHING Pim Fortuyn could have done were he to have become a big party here is as bad as what this murderer has done. No matter how unsavoury his political views, he SHOULD NOT be killed for them. Can't you see that that is true facism? To kill a man for his beliefs? Let me assure you that even Fortuyn's most fierce opponents here in Holland will NOT be doing the happy happy joy joy dance right now - they are appalled, as are the people. This is NOT democracy.

Donut - thank you for that post - you have the right of it, friend.

Sorry if I reacted vehemently, but I still mean what I said.
And let me tell you, I was opposed to Fortuyn vrey much. I've had nightmares about his rising popularity, and sleepless nights. But to compare him to Hitler is idiotic. And I stress again, that NO ONE should be bloody KILLED for their beliefs - NO BODY.

[ 05-06-2002, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

It looks like Godwin's law has taken place here.

The implication being that whoever compared another person to a Nazi has killed the debate (and lost it).

I don't know too much about Fortuyn, except that he was right-wing. However, calling him a Nazi is going overboard, unless he literally wanted to "cleanse" the Earth the way Hitler tried to...

It is unfortunate that he was killed, no politician deserves that. The way to defeat politicians is not by gunshots, but by the voting booth.

Sorry if I upset anyone - I was just trying to be controversial, Devil's advocate if you like. Of course I wouldn't really have shot him (but I would have shot Hitler, with benefit of hindsight - and no, I am not comparing them) but that doesn't mean I'm going to shed any tears, even though it was not the right way to deal with him.

Donut, for what it's worth I agree with what you said - and that is how I do my bit to deal with extreme right-wingers - demonstrate, expose them, etc.

Sorry if I caused any offence, I am a bit warped. I'm truly sorry [img]graemlins/crying.gif[/img] Yes, I can see now that I'm an idiot.

[ 05-06-2002, 01:42 PM: Message edited by: Epona ]

epona, i completely back you up on the hitler issue, but fortuyn, even though he had some smelly ideas, didn't deserve this. This is an attack on our democracy and in this case i would like to pull the trigger on the shooter myself.

Sorry johnny, I agree with you. I was just being stupid but got it badly wrong on this occassion. I have apologized and edited my original post. :( Sorry.

For those who have never heard of dhr. Fortuyn, here is an interview the BBC had with him on the 7th of March this year...

Apology accepted Epona. Believe me, I would have agreed with most ways to remove Fortuyn from politics, and I am worried about the extreme right uprisings throughout Europe. My point however is that shooting someone for their opinion is worse fascism than anything I've heard from Fortuyn's beliefs so far. It is truly a crime against democracy.
Johnny - you're right. I don't know what the sick f*** who did it was thinking, but he should know that NO ONE here will thank him for it - he's made matters worse than anything else could have done: both by threatening our democracy and by probably having made a martyr out of Fortuyn.

Sorry johnny, I agree with you. I was just being stupid but got it badly wrong on this occassion. I have apologized and edited my original post. :( Sorry.</font>[/QUOTE]Don't worry Epona, you're not the only one completely confused, shocked and ripped apart over his. This isn't just a black day for the Netherlands, this is a black page in the history of democracy itself, despite his ridiculous views. :(

No, he wasn't, but he was as close as you could come.)</font>[/QUOTE]That just plain wrong

It was another comment on the nazi-remark - what did the nazies do to homosexuals

All crime should be fought

Mayby not - but I don't like them (just as Epona appently 'dislikes nazies) - here they regulary riot through the city (McDonalds seems to be a favorite target). Hmmm.... Perhaps I should call them autonomes instead.

RELIEVED??? How can you be relieved?

Sorry johnny, I agree with you. I was just being stupid but got it badly wrong on this occassion. I have apologized and edited my original post. :( Sorry.</font>[/QUOTE]no need to say sorry epona, no need at all, but i could use a cold beer now(lol), how about you ?

Now what seems strange to me is why he was killed, I mean, however strongly they opposed him, he shouldn't have been shot, especially since he was only predicted a measly 15% in the elections.
And I doubt they could've not known that.

Ar-Cunin - would you please shut up for a moment? Why is it that when people die, all I see is people discussing politics. This man had friends and family, let's not turn this thread into a stupid debate out of respect for them.
Suffice to say that politically the man was bad news and YES, he was extreme right, so don't try to smooth that over. Regardless, he is dead now - quit the political cr*p.

Would it do any good if they DID catch the shooter? At the end of the day, somebody else (a copycat) could do a similar thing just because they're opposed to a person's views

Do they know for sure it's a political killing? I know it's likely but without the shooter it's conjecture at the moment

I feel there is every need to say sorry johnny - I upset a lot of people through my stupidity, which is wrong. I like to try play the smartass sometimes, but I don't normally misjudge it that badly, and I'm upset with myself and deserve a good kicking.

A cold beer would go down a treat though ;) Thank you.

As Melusine says, this shooting has just made things worse - I heard on the radio that 'lijst Fortuyn' (Fortuyn's political party) is going on without their leader and is therefore still an option with regards to the elections, and Fortuyn's supporters are only going to be more determined for 'lijst Fortuyn' to win.

As far as Fortuyn being a Nazi, it's hard to say. He is certainly extremely right-wing, but not as racist as some people seem to think. He merely points out the fact that people are taking advantage of the Netherlands as a whole - and it is, coincedentally perhaps, generally ethnic minorities that appear to do this. This automatically brands Fortuyn a 'racist' when he is only really interested in maintaining a stable economy with maximum efficiency.

[ 05-06-2002, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: Arledrian ]

I'm so sorry Melusine, I am solely to blame, Ar-Cunin was responding to me because I upset him (and a great many others too). I'm an asshole. :(

I didn't start the political cr*'p (as you so eloquetly put it) - I responded to Epona's initial statement ( that has been edited now). So NO I won't shut up. I'm not trying to justify him or his politics - I'm just a firm believer in free speech and democracy. If the dutch want to vote for him and his party - let them - and them let them deal the consequenses.

P.S. telleing me to shut up is the wrong thing to do - it REALLY irritates me - I was ready to bury the hatchet after Epona's edit - but your comment got me started again.

I feel there is every need to say sorry johnny - I upset a lot of people through my stupidity, which is wrong. I like to try play the smartass sometimes, but I don't normally misjudge it that badly, and I'm upset with myself and deserve a good kicking.

A cold beer would go down a treat though ;) Thank you.</font>[/QUOTE]lol epona, can i kick you about this ?

I am really interested wehe all this will lead to, especially with an eye on the political shift right in europe and him being a far right (not extreem right however) political figure. people tend to over exaggerate implications when things has just happened, but I doubt this will pas lightly.

Umm, I think you misunderstood, I'm not calling him a Nazi, I'm saying he had as close to those to those political beliefs as possible within accepted boundaries.

Sorry, I didn't explain enough on this one either, the BNP are an ever-so-slightly growing faction in England who fight crime, but are not opposed to any crimes they commit.

I didn't say I was, I said some may feel that way, not me, and anyhow I meant relieved as in relieved he won't come into power, certainly not as in happy he's dead.

Well Ar-Cunin - I am a strong believer in free speech as well - don't you see that's the reason why I'm so upset right now?? All I'm asking is that people stop the political propaganda and have some bloody respect!

I didn't start the political cr*'p (as you so eloquetly put it) - I responded to Epona's initial statement ( that has been edited now). So NO I won't shut up. I'm not trying to justify him or his politics - I'm just a firm believer in free speech and democracy. If the dutch want to vote for him and his party - let them - and them let them deal the consequenses.

P.S. telleing me to shut up is the wrong thing to do - it REALLY irritates me - I was ready to bury the hatchet after Epona's edit - but your comment got me started again.</font>[/QUOTE]Ar-Cunin, I accept full and total responsibility for the direction this thread took - I got you mad at me and *I* started it. But please don't get angry with Melusine, it is my fault - I would prefer that the hatchet be buried if you would please reconsider it. My post was thoughtless and stupid, and I'm not surprised with hindsight (which is always 20/20 of course) that a well meaning thread got derailed because of my stupidity.