<font color="silver">Just to give you a better idea of what has been progressing since 1996.....

Feb. 2, 1996
Moses Lake, Wash. 2 students and 1 teacher killed, 1 other wounded when 14-year-old Barry Loukaitis opened fire on his algebra class.

Feb. 19, 1997
Bethel, Alaska Principal and 1 student killed, 2 others wounded by Evan Ramsey, 16.

Oct. 1, 1997
Pearl, Miss. 2 students killed and 7 wounded by Luke Woodham, 16, who was also accused of killing his mother. He and his friends were said to be outcasts who worshiped Satan.

Dec. 1, 1997
West Paducah, Ky. 3 students killed, 5 wounded by Michael Carneal, 14, as they participated in a prayer circle at Heath High School.

Dec. 15, 1997
Stamps, Ark. 2 students wounded. Colt Todd, 14, was hiding in the woods when he shot the students as they stood in the parking lot.

March 24, 1998
Jonesboro, Ark. 4 students and 1 teacher killed, 10 others wounded outside as Westside Middle School emptied during a false fire alarm. Mitchell Johnson, 13, and Andrew Golden, 11, shot at their classmates and teachers from the woods.

April 24, 1998
Edinboro, Pa. 1 teacher, John Gillette, killed, 2 students wounded at a dance at James W. Parker Middle School. Andrew Wurst, 14, was charged.

May 19, 1998
Fayetteville, Tenn. 1 student killed in the parking lot at Lincoln County High School 3 days before he was to graduate. The victim was dating the ex-girlfriend of his killer, 18-year-old honor student Jacob Davis.

May 21, 1998
Springfield, Ore. 2 students killed, 22 others wounded in the cafeteria at Thurston High School by 15-year-old Kip Kinkel. Kinkel had been arrested and released a day earlier for bringing a gun to school. His parents were later found dead at home.

June 15, 1998
Richmond, Va. 1 teacher and 1 guidance counselor wounded by a 14-year-old boy in the school hallway.

April 20, 1999
Littleton, Colo. 14 students (including killers) and 1 teacher killed, 23 others wounded at Columbine High School in the nation's deadliest school shooting. Eric Harris, 18, and Dylan Klebold, 17, had plotted for a year to kill at least 500 and blow up their school. At the end of their hour-long rampage, they turned their guns on themselves.

April 28, 1999
Taber, Alberta, Canada 1 student killed, 1 wounded at W. R. Myers High School in first fatal high school shooting in Canada in 20 years. The suspect, a 14-year-old boy, had dropped out of school after he was severely ostracized by his classmates.

May 20, 1999
Conyers, Ga. 6 students injured at Heritage High School by Thomas Solomon, 15, who was reportedly depressed after breaking up with his girlfriend.

Nov. 19, 1999
Deming, N.M. Victor Cordova Jr., 12, shoots and kills Araceli Tena, 13, in the lobby of Deming Middle School.

Dec. 6, 1999
Fort Gibson, Okla. 4 students wounded as Seth Trickey, 13, opened fire with a 9mm semiautomatic handgun at Fort Gibson Middle School.

February 29, 2000
Mount Morris Township, Mich. 6-year-old Kayla Rolland shot dead at Buell Elementary School near Flint, Mich. The assailant is identified as a 6-year-old boy with a .32-caliber handgun.

May 26, 2000
Lake Worth, Fla. 1 teacher, Barry Grunow, shot and killed at Lake Worth Middle School by Nate Brazill, 13, with .25-caliber semiautomatic pistol on the last day of classes.

March 5, 2001
Santee, Calif. Charles Andrew Williams, 15, kills 2 and wounds 13, after firing from a bathroom at Santana High School.

March 7, 2001
Williamsport, Pa. Elizabeth Catherine Bush, 14, wounded student Kimberly Marchese in the cafeteria of Bishop Neumann High School; she was depressed and frequently teased. </font>

<font color="lime">Source of information - www.cnn.com</font>

That's terrible...
Its good that you brought this to our attention TAOWolf, some people (including myself) didn't truly understand how bad the problem was until now.
What exactly is the American government doing about all this?

what can they do?outlaw insanity?

I agree, actually. Thank God that I'm not a politician who has to prevent such horrors as these, because I don't think I could deal with it. :( This is just such an incredibly difficult and COMPLEX thing to deal with - it isn't just a matter of a bunch of gun laws or a Bible class once a week :( There is something profoundly *twisted* and wrong with a lot of people's sense of morality... I think we must do everything we can to prevent these things from happening, but I'm under no delusions that it will be easy.

They can try to address the problems at hand - encourage therapy, counseling, and school meetings which address the issue. They can also encourage parents to be more aware of the mindset and/or activities of their children.

To add to that, the government could also see to it that guns are more difficult to come by, by possibly tightening and enforcing stiffer penalties for people who leave their guns lying around.

Personally I think it's because society is screwed up and intolerant. I know that I myself have a lot of pent up rage because of the way that Danish society is, I'm different in my home country and I am more or less an outcast.

I believe that the people who become outcasts or are forced to be someone they're not in order to be accepted are the people that do these things.

Of course, tighter gun laws to ensure that guns would be harder to come by wouldn't hurt either.

So what is society supposed to do? You'll always get people that don't fit in but it doesn't excuse killing people

Of course - I am not saying there's nothing we can do - in fact I think there are a lot of things we *should* do about this problem.
But when stuff like this happens, it just gets to me - it's like a cancer ingrained in our society - I just cannot grasp or comprehend the fact that there are young people who can kill people in cold blood like this. It's just one of the most disturbing phenomena I can think of :(

Of course it doesn't. But if society was tolerant and didn't make these people outcasts then there would probably be less killings.... At least that's my opinion.

make them outcasts? in what respect?

if somebody is expelled from school it's for a good reason.

if somebody is bullied or teased at school, well, kids have been doing that since schools BEGAN!!! Hell, ,I was bullied at school. I trained up, kicked the crap out of them in return, but I have never decided "ooh, I shall go back to school and kill the teachers that sided with the bullies"

that takes another incentive entirely

FF, not all people think like you, remember that. Personally I can't stand the people who've cast me out, but I would never resort to any sort of violence, or anything else, to get revenge. Some people might see it QUITE a bit differently though.

And even if it takes something MORE than bullying to drive them to a shooting lessening the bullying would STILL make it less likely to happen.

And when I say an outcast I mean just that. Someone who is cast out, in this case just for not being like everyone else. Personally I'm an outcast just for not drinking alcohol.

Possibly the expelling was somehow connected to being an outcast? Being an outcast isn't exactly pleasant, so it might have been a mental strain that drove them to do something which got them expelled.

I always wonder where kids get this kind of firepower.
I know some family's in the US own handguns, but I've heard story's of automatic machineguns and grenades!!!

It Scares Me. I Don't Know If This Is What Sparked This Thread, But Today I Heard On The News About A School Massacare In Germany. 7 Teachers Killed Or Summat After A Pupil Was Expelled... Its Sickening, Tragic And Sad

Yes, I think you said everything already. Sickening, tragic and sad.

"Warning" that wacko "gaunty" is posting.
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somebody in the tv/movie market is glorifying the violance
that is copy acted out in our schools.
somebody needs to make hollywood to get rid of the violance
glorification.
look at the rap and hip hop music propaganda "don't learn the
white man's knowledge, stay dum like the rest of the hood".

wow... a six year old shootin' another... what is the world comming to?

Why is it the American GOVERNMENTS problem? The US government is somewhat different than that in other countries, in the USA it is not supposed to be the nanny of the people. The role of government in the USA is not supposed to be social engineering.

This is an issue of parents and society, these problems are local individual issues. Where do these kids get guns? where do they get money? Why are their parents not aware that their children are psychopathic? It comes from parents treating their kids like adults instead of children, or worse yet, ignoring their responsibility as parents. The blame is not the governments, it is the parents and the teachers....these are the two sets of adults that spend the most time with these kids.

The government has only one responsibility here, and that is to make sure that each states laws are constitutional and the state laws should be prosecuting the criminals who do these terrible crimes.

sorry ..pet peeve there....people abdicating their responsibility and accountability and dumping it on the government...very stupid thing to do.

EDIT: Obviously I err was ranting about the situation in the US, the terrible tragedy in Germany may or may not be related to the same issues.

[ 04-26-2002, 02:52 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

This is all so very tragic. I just now heard about a terrible shooting and loss of life at a school in Germany on the news. .

"The white man's knowledge"??

:raises eyebrow:

Careful, you're walking the line there pal - this board does not allow racist messages of any kind.

i blame it on the media. if no one heard about the first major one in colorado. it wouldn't have become such a common thing.

<font color = lightgreen>Unfortunately, insanity and tragedy do not respect national boundaries. Regardless of location, I believe the causes are identical--someone failed to notice that these children were in trouble before these shootings happened.
You cannot blame the media--how many people watch "violent" TV shows and/or movies yet never act in a violent manner toward others? You cannot blame video games for the same reason. You cannot blame teachers--their job is to educate, not babysit.
Who does that leave? Parents. In some places legal blame is being placed on the parents, because the precedent has been set to charge the parents for the actions of their children (for those of you with children, take care). Right or not, that is what is being done.

I hope that more situations like these do not happen again.</font>

It's their fault that Harris and Klebold went and blew away their classmates? Should the American public not be told about something like this? Or should the media have ignored it, so we can pretend that there is no problem?

Ah, yes, blame it on someone else. Music, movies, heck, even video games. But, good lord, no. Not the children who pulled the triggers. Not their neglectful parents. Not the people in school who chastised and made fun of their future assassins just because of who they are. Not the people who provided them with access to deadly weapons.

I tell you, some of the stuff I've read about how Harris and Klebold were treated at Columbine makes me sick. Being pushed into lockers and being called a "f*ggot" all the time is really disgusting treatment - and then these same people, who exist all over the world, turn around and wonder why these "weird kids" get so pissed off at everybody. These people are quite possibly the dumbest on the planet.

Now, don't anyone misunderstand me, I am a pacifist and would never condone violence. What they did is wrong. But bullying is certainly a cause, and it must be addressed, lest the targets of bullying opt for something more deadly.

sad

It's really interesting the different opinions that have popped out of my starting this thread, and that was the whole point. :D

Its sad that things like this happen, but the problems start at home with the parents and the family.... to blame it on religion/non-religion, guns, video games, movies peer-pressure is excuses IMHO.

I grew up with peer-pressure, religious issues and everything else that goes with being a teen-ager in the 70's and 80's. This is nothing new, and blaming it on the media, in part is true and not.

My Da taught me to shoot a gun when I was 5 yrs old, and drilled the importance of how dangerous they were to all us kids. We had loaded guns in the house the whole time I was growing up, and NONE of us touched them without permission. As for where kids get the auto's, semi's and grenades and such. You can buy them out of the back of blackmarket dealers cars... Gun control is one thing, but by banning certain types of guns, all you are doing is making them more accessible on the black market. The waiting period is working, it justs takes awhile for it to work right. And yes, there are alot of irresponsible parents out there, who DO NOT teach their children right, and to put this on teachers is not right. They have enough to do with trying to teach children what they need to know from SCHOOL, not what parents should be teaching all along at home.

I hope I have not offended anyone, as I said this is my personal opinion, and two of those shootings have occured in my state (Arkansas), so..........

Being 35 yrs old, and 14 yrs in the military, I have traveled all over the world, and seen alot of different people and countries. It is not just the U.S. that has this problem. When I was in Israel, a 12 yr old, carrying an M-16 rifle fully loaded, came up and asked if he could have his picture taken with me. A 12 yr old carrying a gun in public. So, it could be alot worse??

I will step off my soap-box now, :D and let someone else have a crack at it...

<font color="lightgreen">I agree with gaunty in the way that the media is at least partially responsible. Yes, violent shows can have something to do with it. But who is it who lets them watch those movies/shows ?? The Parents.

The situations in the US come down to the Parents, and possibly to the government at state level (from what ive read above though, not federal level).
Mel- I think what Gaunty was trying to say there was that that is what the music industry is saying, and that he disagrees with it. However, how racism in the media could link to non-race related violence in schools is beyond me. </font>

Allow me to comment on this: We are all different. What does not affect you MIGHT just affect them, perhaps they're more susceptible to wrath, perhaps the way in which they were bullied was FAR worse than what any of US have ever experienced in school.

I will agree that blaming it on too many things besides the parents ARE excuses. They have QUITE a big part of the blame for not raising their kids correctly, of course they still do not hold ALL of the blame.

Several points have been made here about tighter gun-control laws.

We have very tight laws here in the UK - it would be illegal for me to own a gun (or to carry a knife on the street with a blade longer than 3" for that matter). But I just found out a few days ago that my local hospital in Hackney treated more gunshot wounds last year than were seen in the most violent area of Soweto. (Sorry for repeating myself, I just said this on Milamber's thread too - but I think it proves a point).

OK, Hackney probably has the worst problem with this in the UK, but the people who actually want to go out and shoot someone still find it easy enough to illegally obtain guns - because they are criminals and know the right people.

And it doesn't prevent the kind of disasters we just saw happen in Germany - we had tight gun control laws before the incident at Dunblane - but it didn't stop 16 kids and a teacher getting shot by a psychopath.

[ 04-27-2002, 07:34 AM: Message edited by: Epona ]