Okay, so what's your opinion on graffiti, is it art or just damn annoying..
The reason I brought this up is because there has recently been quite a stir-up in sweden about the police shutting down a graffiti exhibition in a public premise in Stockholm, because of the very strict rules about not allowing graffiti anywhere in the city..
Many people has been upset about this exhibition because the people who took part in the exhibition soon went out and scrawled in the subways in Stockholm.
So what's your opinion..
And please let's keep graffiti and meaningless scribble (known as 'tags') apart ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:
Okay, so what's your opinion on graffiti, is it art or just damn annoying..
The reason I brought this up is because there has recently been quite a stir-up in sweden about the police shutting down a graffiti exhibition in a public premise in Stockholm, because of the very strict rules about not allowing graffiti anywhere in the city..
Many people has been upset about this exhibition because the people who took part in the exhibition soon went out and scrawled in the subways in Stockholm.
So what's your opinion..
And please let's keep graffiti and meaningless scribble (known as 'tags') apart ;) <hr></blockquote>

I've never been to your country, Sir Regin. So I can't comment on what you've seen. I have seen some very artistic graffiti in Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States. When it is for the purpose of art, then I support it. But, I guess it has to do with the eye of the beholder sometimes. All too often, it is the markings of a gang. I also think that perhaps not everyone in your country is blonde. I know for a fact that the Swedish chef on the muppets wasn't blonde.

Edited because of synaptic overload combined with intellectual dysfunction.

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Hiram Sedai ]</p>

If you ever go to L.A you might not be very tolerant of it. It sucks. Most of the graffiti out here isn't very attractive. There are some murals that the city sponsored which look pretty cool, but for the most part it's just crap.

Blond, maybe, but virgins ? How is it that there are still Swedes left ? [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:


I've never been to your country, Sir Regin. So I can't comment on what you've seen. I have seen some very artistic graffiti in Atlanta, Georgia, in the United States. When it is for the purpose of art, then I support it. But, I guess it has to do with the eye of the beholder sometimes. All too often, it is the markings of a gang. I also think that perhaps not everyone in your country is blonde. I know for a fact that the Swedish chef on the muppets wasn't blonde.

<hr></blockquote>

You don't need to comment on the specific example, it was only meant to describe some of the consequences of graffiti..
Oh and not everybody are blonde, just the virgins :D
And the chef on the muppets isn't swedish, man..you live in a dream :D :rolleyes: [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<font color="cyan">There are some kinds of graffiti that I really like.

I've never really had the experiance of seeing Graffitti that I don't like. It just appeals to me, looks cool.</font>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Moiraine:
Blond, maybe, but virgins ? How is it that there are still Swedes left ? [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

The non-virigns leave their children (if they have any) to those who are still virigns, and then we ship them off to Denmark..
[img]smile.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:


You don't need to comment on the specific example, it was only meant to describe some of the consequences of graffiti..
Oh and not everybody are blonde, just the virgins :D
And the chef on the muppets isn't swedish, man..you live in a dream :D :rolleyes: [img]tongue.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>


I may not know how to woo the ladies like you do. I also might not have a clue how to act in public. But, I do know that his title was "Swedish Chef". I know my muppets.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:



I may not know how to woo the ladies like you do. I also might not have a clue how to act in public. But, I do know that his title was "Swedish Chef". I know my muppets.<hr></blockquote>

Are you sure? Huh, I thought he was german or something, muppets aren't that popular in sweden [img]smile.gif[/img]

But people, don't let me detain you from writng all your opinions on graffiti :D

There Are Some I Like And Some Not So... I Love The Cool Arty Graffiti, Where They Have Big Colourful Letters And Such, Like So:

http://www.upenn.edu/computing/print...s/graffiti.GIF


But I hate It When People Just Write: DK Woz Ere Y2k... Thats Just A Pain..

I think it's both, sometimes. Just spray painting your name would be hard to consider art, but you never know. But it is darn annoying. If you want to create art, create it on something you own, not someone else's property.

People throwing up tags i dont like at all. But i do love big pieces thrown up, especially on frieght trains. Its an underground thing that sucks if its done on the front door of a business...but on the walls of an abandoned warehouse or side of a frieght...i think thats awesome.

I really like it, I think it looks very nice, and I think what happened in Stockholm (kulturhuset, wasn't it?) is despicable!
What's the use of a democratic society, when someone else tells you what art is..

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Beaumanoir:
There Are Some I Like And Some Not So... I Love The Cool Arty Graffiti, Where They Have Big Colourful Letters And Such, Like So:

http://www.upenn.edu/computing/print...s/graffiti.GIF


But I hate It When People Just Write: DK Woz Ere Y2k... Thats Just A Pain..<hr></blockquote>

I totally agree with you, Beaumanoir!

Man, it's a tough question. First you have to tackle the definition of "What is Art?" which critics and philosophers have been tussling with for generations. If you take the stance that Art is an expression of idea and emotion into form, then graffiti *would* fall under the definition of Art; at least some forms of it would.

I know for a fact that some of the coolest art I've seen is on the walls of buildings in downtown Dallas (Deep Ellum and the arts district), where proprietors actually PAY young "starving" artists in the area to paint the walls of their businesses with graffiti. It is a riot of color and fantastic expression, and people do come down there just to see it, which, of course, attracts them into the businesses, so it's good for everyone.

What someone defines as Art, though, may be completely different to someone else, and there are no real standards or definitions.

Let's look at what Leo Tolstoy said about it at the end of the 19th century:

<font color="#cccccc">"In order correctly to define art, it is necessary, first of all, to cease to consider it as a means to pleasure and to consider it as one of the conditions of human life. Viewing it in this way we cannot fail to observe that art is one of the means of intercourse between man and man.

Every work of art causes the receiver to enter into a certain kind of relationship both with him who produced, or is producing, the art, and with all those who, simultaneously, previously, or subsequently, receive the same artistic impression.

Speech, transmitting the thoughts and experiences of men, serves as a means of union among them, and art acts in a similar manner. The peculiarity of this latter means of intercourse, distinguishing it from intercourse by means of words, consists in this, that whereas by words a man transmits his thoughts to another, by means of art he transmits his feelings . . .

To evoke in oneself a feeling one has once experienced, and having evoked it in oneself, then, by means of movements, lines, colors, sounds, or forms expressed in words, so to transmit that feeling that others may experience the same feeling - this is the activity of art.

Art is a human activity consisting in this, that one man consciously, by means of certain external signs, hands on to others feelings he has lived through, and that other people are infected by these feelings and also experience them."</font>
-TOLSTOY, "What is Art?", 1896

So, according to Tolstoy, Art is a form of non-verbal communication on an emotional level. I disagree with him that the artistic impression must be the same for everyone who views and participates in the art, but just that an impression is made and communicated. What I see in art may be different from what others see, and yet we may all be correct, like the blind men examining the elephant.

In this case, I would consider the form of graffiti you were speaking of, Sir ReGiN, as "art", as it was a conscious form of emotional expression. The city of Stockholm was misguided, IMO, in shutting down the exhibit, as those who participated felt that their expression was being prohibited, and took retaliatory action in a less pleasant manner. It is a classic case of taking a general rule and applying it mindlessly to a situation that was an exception.

Cheers,
-Sazerac

[ 01-11-2002: Message edited by: Sazerac ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:


You don't need to comment on the specific example, it was only meant to describe some of the consequences of graffiti..
Oh and not everybody are blonde, just the virgins :D
And the chef on the muppets isn't swedish, man..you live in a dream :D :rolleyes: [img]tongue.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

ROTFL! HE isn't? OH NO! You two have shattered my illusions! ;) I love the Muppets! [img]graemlins/laugh2.gif[/img]

As for grafiti, I guess I'm not fond of it if isn't actually art. Who wants to see phone numbers or obscenity scrawled on a building? And I think alot of it is also gang markings in places like LA, that Milamber mentioned. But I have seen some very nice artwork done occasionally.

Cloudy

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by catzenpewters:
I think it's both, sometimes. Just spray painting your name would be hard to consider art, but you never know. But it is darn annoying. If you want to create art, create it on something you own, not someone else's property.<hr></blockquote>

Good point! It isn't their property, even it it's an unused warehouse etc.

Very interesting post there, Sazerac..
I think I share most my opinions with Tolstoy..except that about everybody gets the same "artistic impression"..
But there is also another side of the whole "graffiti-living", and I use Stockholm as a reference...
The swedish railways have considered putting up some sort of walls on the back of subways, because many young people "graffers" tend to ride the subways by clinging on to the back of them, and then they get respect from their pals..
Some even jump on subways from roads over the tracks, and sit on the roof..some have died doing this, but still some continue..
And then there's the racking part..
Considering every store as compressed capitalism, gives them a good excuse for stealing everything they want..
And even the true graffiti artists has to write their 'tags' everywhere, and cleaning up all the scribble around Stockholm costs the state many million kronor (ten kronor is about 1 dollar) every year..
So there is of course more to this than the art..

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:
Very interesting post there, Sazerac..
I think I share most my opinions with Tolstoy..except that about everybody gets the same "artistic impression"..
But there is also another side of the whole "graffiti-living", and I use Stockholm as a reference...
The swedish railways have considered putting up some sort of walls on the back of subways, because many young people "graffers" tend to ride the subways by clinging on to the back of them, and then they get respect from their pals..
Some even jump on subways from roads over the tracks, and sit on the roof..some have died doing this, but still some continue..
And then there's the racking part..
Considering every store as compressed capitalism, gives them a good excuse for stealing everything they want..
And even the true graffiti artists has to write their 'tags' everywhere, and cleaning up all the scribble around Stockholm costs the state many million kronor (ten kronor is about 1 dollar) every year..
So there is of course more to this than the art..<hr></blockquote>

Of course there is more to it than the art. I, too, do not appreciate the "ugly graffiti" or the ones that consist mainly of swear words or vulgar sexual ephithet, especially applied towards denigrating females sexually...that is NOT ok in my book. However, I feel that the city of Stockholm may have tossed the baby out with the bathwater on this one. I really can't tell unless I knew a little more about the situation. Do you have an article or reference that can show more about it?

And, like you, I totally agree about Tolstoy being a bit off the mark in saying that everyone gets the same artistic impression. Art is fluid and has a myriad of meaning; as varied and differentiated as the artists and the members of their viewing audience.

Cheers,
-Sazerac

Ok, The Chef on the Muppets was the "Swedish Chef" and he liked Meatballs and popcorn [img]smile.gif[/img] not on the same show but ...well you get the idea, as for Grafitti...Soap Box time: While some grafitti may be artistic, if it is placed on property not your own and you don't have permission to put it there the best definition for it is VANDALISM!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:


Do you have an article or reference that can show more about it?


Cheers,
-Sazerac<hr></blockquote>

Yes, but I guess I would have to give you a quick course on the swedish language to show you.. ;)
But I'll see if I can find one on english [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:


Yes, but I guess I would have to give you a quick course on the swedish language to show you.. ;)
But I'll see if I can find one on english [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

Nah, if you can find a Swedish one, I'll run it through Babelfish. ;) Thanks!

-Saz

Okay, I did some research and came up with a few interesting links [img]smile.gif[/img] :

http://www.graffiti.org/endstation/m...g16/mag_16.htm
This article sort of describes the siituation of "swedish railways" in the whole country (although this article is about southern sweden)

And some photos:

www.motographics.com/hotel/graffiti/gallery/trainsurfing.html
This is a pic of a graffer riding a train..he died during this ride

www.motographics.com/hotel/graffiti/gallery/trainyard.html
This is a picture of some graffers tha have actually gone into the subway tunnels to SL:s ("sveriges linjetrafik", swedish railways) train garagre just to paint..

www.motographics.com/hotel/graffiti/gallery/f***picasso.html
This is the result of the above link..(some explicit language are used!)

www.sannas.se/graffiti/pages/27.htm
The police arrests a graffer, who claimed he had been the subject of severe police brutality (which you can see at his cheek) he won the case against one police-man who had to leave the force..

www.sannas.se/graffiti/pages/22.htm
This is an example of a legel painting ordered by a company..

I'll see if I can find more articles, but there aren't many :(

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sir ReGiN:


You don't need to comment on the specific example, it was only meant to describe some of the consequences of graffiti..
Oh and not everybody are blonde, just the virgins :D
And the chef on the muppets isn't swedish, man..you live in a dream :D :rolleyes: [img]tongue.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>


Must comment. not everybody is blond, just virginces AND fjortisar (though blond usually isn't their natural haircolor)

Okay Saz, here's some articles in swedish..

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/debatt...103322,00.html
This is an article from a debate-page..sort of, you'll get the idea [img]smile.gif[/img]

And here's an article from SL..

SJ-chefen till angrepp mot graffitiutställning
STOCKHOLM. SJ-chefen och generaldirektören för Banverket går till attack mot Kulturhuvudstadsåret och stödet till graffitiutställningen The Arrow.
Erfarenheten från tidigare klotterarrangemang är att tåg och järnvägsmiljöer omedelbart drabbas av ökad vandalisering, skriver de i ett brev till Karin Fischer.
Graffitiutställningen som invigdes av Kulturhuvudstadsårets vd Karin Fischer på måndagen har väckt stark kritik från SJ, Storstockholms lokaltrafik (SL) och från polisen som anser att den uppmuntrar till illegalt klotter.
SL:s säkerhetschef Kjell Hultman tycker att han fått vatten på sin kvarn efter helgens musikfestival Fanclub på Lida söder om Stockholm där graffitikonstnärerna ställde ut sina verk.

”Glasklart samband”
Lida Kyrkas vitkalkade grund och ett 20-tal pendeltågsvagnar måste saneras sedan de klottrats ned. Dessutom har en rad stationer och tunnelbanevagnar utsatts för klotter. Sambandet är glasklart enligt SL.
- Det är avsevärt mer klotter än under en vanlig helg, säger Kjell Hultman på SL.
Karin Fischer är inte lika säker på kopplingen. Fanclubfestivalens områdesansvarige Peter Carlsson säger att det klottrats betydligt mer ute på Lida vid tidigare festivaler.
Nye SJ chefen Daniel Johannesson och Banverkets Bo Bylund ansluter sig nu till kritikerna i ett gemensamt brev till Karin Fischer, skickat i fredags.
De skriver att erfarenheten från ”tidigare offentliga klotterarrangemang” visar att klottret ökar på tåg och i järnvägsmiljöer. Kulturhuvudstadsårets hantering av utställningen är nonchalant mot allmänhet och fastighetsägare menar Johannesson och Bylund.

Fotboll och huliganer
Karin Fischer har ingen förståelse för generaldirektörernas åsikter. Hon tycker att det är ohederliga när de skriver att Kulturhuvudstadsåret inte ställt några krav på arrangörerna av utställningen.
- Vi tar avstånd från illegalt klotter och har skrivit in i kontraktet med arrangören att vi ska verka emot det, säger Karin Fischer.
Graffitiutställningen är ett sätt att tala med ungdomar och skildra en del av hiphopkulturen. Karin Fischer förnekar inte sambandet mellan graffiti som konst och illegalt klotter.
- Men man kan inte låtsas att något inte existerar för att man inte gillar en del av konsekvenserna.
Karin Fischer jämför med fotbollsarrangemang som drar till sig huliganer utan att idrottens existens ifrågasätts.

I'll see if I can find some more later.. ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Istaron:



Must comment. not everybody is blond, just virginces AND fjortisar (though blond usually isn't their natural haircolor)<hr></blockquote>

LOL :D

"....my attitude is shitty
and I'm located worldwide like the art of graffiti..." :D