ok, i live in a VERY liberal (unfortunately) state, so i am expecting mixed views and "everyone is equal" crap here, so go ahead and say your feelings about this thread, because i plan too.

this country has gone WAY too far in its human rights. YES we all have rights, and the little piece of paper out forefathers created and signed called the constitution ensures that. however i feel our country and its constitution are being raped by people who exploit it. here is an example:

did you know that tens of billions of dollars are spent EVERY year to keep murderers and the like in prisons, where they live better inside then they did outside? people go to prison, and dont care because alot of them get cable television, three hot meals a day, a place to sleep, books to read, letters from loved ones, hot water for showers, games to play, a yard to work out in, or shoot hoops etc. these people MURDERED and raped people, they should have none of this stuff. i dont want the money that i work hard to earn to go to some asshole who raped and murdered a whole family, including raping the young girls of said family. these "people" are animals, and should be killed, not living in a lap of luxory. if someone commits a crime i can understand something like a county run facility for a little while, but people who commit haneous (spelling)and violent acts like murder and rape just need to be put to death right away. not spend twenty years in prison with appeal after appeal after appeal, just to walk away later on, or be put to death after so long a time, only to die old anyway. my money should be spent on ME and MY family, or families who need help do to disasters and the like. i know about all of this, because i met a guy recently who said he was "reformed" after spending nearly twenty years in prison for killing his wife. he told me about all of the stuff that they did in prison, and it pissed me off to the point that i had to leave.


another example of the "human rights" issue.

our country has gone as far as to sacrifice its people security, for people who arent even citizens of this great country as of yet. people who come from foreign countried known to harbor terrorists and fleeing to become Americans and get away from their countries, cant even be asked simple questions that are VOLUNTARY to answer. this is because they (and MANY) others in this country, who just want their voice to be heard cry about human rights. well let me tell you, if you had family in the WTC, or in one of the hijacked planes, you would want the same stuff to happen. i see NOTHING wrong in questioning people about some things, if its possible they might know a little something helpfull. its not like they are detained, tied up, beaten, and interogated. hell, they are given coffee, and a lunch or snack, and just asked a couple of insignificant little questions. its because of liberal ass whiners like this, that allowed questionable people into our country in the first place, hence September 11. now i know that we cant keep ALL of the bad guys out, but i think that simple little measures could be taken to drastically reduce those people coming in, however people are too caught up in the rights of others to care about what happened or what could happen. there are actually people who appose us in afghanistan, solely on the purpose that we are at war. yet these same people burn down abortion clinics and preach about peach and not violence. people burn flags in our streets and get nothing but yelled at, because they can say "freedom of speach, and human rights" and yes, it has happened. well let me tell you, if i see it happen in my street, ill be going to one of those plush prisons, because they may be cool enough to protest our presence in a country and looking for bad guys, but they wont outrun a bullet!!

am i the only one who see's this as a mockery of our constitution? i know i have some harsh idea's but the reality is we live in a harsh world, and no amount of whining, bitching, and crying is going to change that. im sure that someone, maybe someone reading this would rather America get rid of all of its weapons and promote peace. well, the instant another country has more technilogical superiority, or manpower, or weaponry, they will be here, in America, bombing US!! there will NEVER be peace on earth, not while we are alive anyway. no matter how much we would like there to be, there just wont. countries like iraq, and afghanistan, and north korea, etc will ensure that. we didnt start this war, but we sure as hell will finish it. i didnt mean to get into a war discussion, it just happened, sorry.

anyway, thanx for wasteing your time on my ranting and raving, and i know feel alot better for having vented some of my frustration. please feel free to agree, or disagree, or criticize, or whatever. or just ignore it and move on. thanks all, and good day.

[img]graemlins/mage1.gif[/img]

I agree with you on everything. You got lot's of good points.

I keep it short as I might offend some people.

I also agree with you. It's as bad or worse down here in NZ where prisoners are not only given tv's, playstations, three square meals and a maximum life sentence of 15 years but they are also given a free education while inside! I am planning to do a teaching degree and without taking living costs into account it will cost me $15000nz over 3 years - is this fair?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:
. countries like iraq, and afghanistan, and north korea, etc will ensure that. <hr></blockquote>

I think I can help you here Morgan. The three countries that you have named have exactly the kind of society that you yearn for. They don't waste money locking people up they just execute them. Steal a loaf of bread - cut their bloody hands off. They won't do it again in a hurry! Commit adultery - cut their bloody heads off!

So, which one will you choose?

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Donut ]</p>

Well, I'm not a master debater so I will leave the real debating to others, but I disagree with practically *all* of your points. Just a mention that an execution using an electrical chair costs more money than a life long jail sentence. So what is it exactly that it is bothering you? Money can't be the issue, is it just that you don't think they are worth living? You want them to be shot like dogs? Excuse me, but like Donut said, how much will the U.S. be better than the countries they despise (Irak, North Korea, Afghanistan) if they do exactly the same things?
Your second point is just sad right-extremist paranoia, as if everyone entering the country of whom you even suspect to have an Arabian heritage is a potential criminal...
Actually, your rant only reminded me how happy I am that I live in one of the most liberal countries in the world, with hardly any right-extremist inhabitants... All that tolerance, no death penalties, all those rights, rather normal acceptance procedures of foreigners in our society, Big Brother only being a thing on TV you can zap away from... Probably a hell on Earth for you. ;)

[ 01-10-2002: Message edited by: Grojlach ]</p>

Hmm, did he realize his opinions were a little out of line and decided not to reply or something? :confused:

This is sounding eerily like American History X.
And I agree with Donut, because he basically said what I was thinking. We are horrified and appalled by Taliban atrocities commited to its own citizens, and yet we complain about how doing the opposite violates our own personal agenda. There are many moral and ethical issues regarding to harsher punishments to criminals, and I'm willing to bet its because America has been a role model, an icon for freedom and humanity for the entire world. If you wish to dictate how other nations govern and punish their criminals, first show how its done!
I agree that criminals should not be given the luxuries they are afforded on behalf of the state that keeps them, and that when it comes to jail time as a deterrant to crime rather than an easy way out, it should be harder, more basic, and a hell of a lot more like a punishment. Perhaps the reason why America has so many repeat-offenders is because jail time is more lucrative than a hard, tough life on the streets or a decent, honest living.
Prisoners should be taught how to re-enter society in a productive fashion, but they should also be instilled with a fear of going back. Theres a bible verse that says that he who has been stealing must steal no more, but work with his hands that he might have something to offer his neighbours. I'd appreciate it if anyone could tell me the specific verse..

i think criminals shouldbe punished by having the crime they committed being committed agains them by pros
like arapist could be locked in a confined space with a male horse in heat!

I'm not necessarily involving my own opinions here, but many people might say that the whole idea of capital punishment is flawed.
I agree that they shouldn't be treated like kings, but if you execute a murderer then you're committing the exact same wrong that they did, however much they deserve to die.
Yes, they killed someone without the right to, but that doesn't give us the right to, or we are just as much of a murderer as they were.
Other than that, I agree and you made many valid points.

Dont take any of this personally, but New York is an ugly state. Manhattan and Upsate regions would be the only places in New York where you can really enjoy yourself and everything around you. And I know I lived in New York now for 4 years. Unfortionately I did not get the pleasure to live upstate or in the city. All of the 5 boroughs are ugly places, perhaps Staten Island is quite well made and a nice place, but that is it.

So I come to a sence that I must agree with Morgan here a bit. Money that should be going to the boroughs so the mayor can actually fix them up, perhaps put some money into schools, colleges, and just streets. The streets are so ugly, the schools are so ugly, I mean just its DULL, it is dull, gray its very disgusting and I will tell you that from personal experience that yes, its true. And I bet New York is not only one state in America which has this problem, oh there are many more. I dont think the money should be going to all of those places like prisons, mental facilites which have convicts who are mentally ill who did murders that our minds would not even imagine, and yet the city where most immigrants, like myself, goto is left ugly, and without any care, nothing is getting fixed, no improvment. The mayor should be fixing up Brooklyn, Bronx, Queens, and putting the money where most of the immigrants stay. Otherwise what impression do WE get of America? Personally I dont consider Brooklyn and areas around it America, its more like a big zoo ran by people of different backrounds, I mean how can anything be like America when you have delies, stores, entertaiment places ran by Russians, Pakistanians, and Spanish etc. Its not going to be like America, the essentuality of American living is kept in Towns, Town life, peacful life is the "real" America, and many agree. I have no choice because I enjoy living amongts people of my backround and working in cities because I can actually find a decent job there. Of course later perhaps in a couple of years I will move down to NJ or somewhere in the country side for a nice life. But still, the goverment spends way to much money on things it doesnt need.

I am Russian, and why dont we take a second and look at the Russian goverment. What do we have? We have ugly bastards stealing money from Russian Empire, robbing my country, a country of thousands years of graceful and glorious history, a beautiful country. Russia has everything, it has lots of American industry and much of European, which makes it a really a great place. The only thing it lacks is money. Slowly this is starting to happen to America, people are putting money where they KNOW they should not go, but yet they do it for only THEIR own good. Because they are selfish.

Now about terrorism, have you seen the movie Swordfish? Just shows you that really that little group of Johnny T was just to show the world what terrorism can really be, that if a country harvords terrorims they are fools, because terrorism is so terroristic hehe that when it happens its just unbelievable. In America, people are not used to Terrorism, people are really not used to a lot of things that bring horror, let be a little rough rain people in America will start screaming for help. America is build on talents of Jewish people, of Russians and Chinese and other ethnic people. America for christ sakes is only 300 years old if not even less. How can it be something so great? America is build on talents, and those fools who think that American History X was actually a movie to show something are idiots because that little gang of those stupid white protestants did not relize that without the Spanish, Russian, Chinese etc, America would be nothing.

And yes, expect it to HAPPEN! Russians, Spanish, much of Europeans will expose the Freedom of America, no offence but many Russians take Americas freedom and completely take advantage over it. Many immigrants exceed the limits of American freedom to unbelievable heights. And well, it will always happen.

Well I dont know where I'm going with this, but well just sharing whats on my mind.

Dont take any of this personally [img]smile.gif[/img] . I still love America and always will for what it is, it is a place that will give you home no matter who and where you're from. God bless this country, but it is by far, not the best heh...

Cheers!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:

this country has gone WAY too far in its human rights.
did you know that tens of billions of dollars are spent EVERY year to keep murderers and the like in prisons, where they live better inside then they did outside? <hr></blockquote>As I recall, the U.S goverment also wastes tens of Billions of Dollars on weaponry(to 'protect yourselfs'). Think of all the lives that can be saved with this amount of money. But instead you just go bomb a few thousand inocent civilians to hell on a rock like vietnam(God bless America). Who cares, they were just communists anyway. It is strange though. If I kill someone inocent, I'm a criminal. If a sicko like Bin Laden kills thousands of Inocents, he's a terrorist. But if the US goverment kills tens of thousands of inocent civilians, its protection of Democraty. Do you know btw how many people get wrongly executed each year in the US? What a lovely country you live in.

[ 01-13-2002: Message edited by: Dreamer128 ]</p>

*Nods in agreement after reading Dreamer128's post*

So Durwyn, I'm a fool because I think American History X might be an accurate potrayal of what happens if you let too much of these "injustices" go to your head?

America is not all "towns and villages" friend. America is a multi-racial place, and multi-cultural, because it stands for equal right and opportunity for all. So what would your complaint be to Russian or Pakistan or Spanish-owned businesses if they provide people like yourself with a honest living? Do those people have any less of a right to work than any other American?
If that issint America, then what is? Would you call Singapore a zoo as well because we have 4 major races sharing an island smaller than New York? And that all of those 4 races play a huge and interconnected part in society, own businesses and gather together as SINGAPOREANS?
I'm not trying to flame you, but I'm wondering what your point is. You call the place you live in a zoo, your home country a place run by thieves, complain that people like yourself own businesses in big cities while they are the ones giving you a decent job, and then state that American living is in small quiet towns. Big cities have their place.
Money saved from cutting down on prison expenses could and should go into upgrading the standard of life in the slums and districts of big cities like NY, but why rob America of its diversity and culture by making Russian/Spanish/Pakistan owned businesses shut down or go away? These people are as much America as "Americans", as you said, so how does their being there make America not like "America"?
Those very "talents" you spoke of that America was built on ARE in those foreign businesses, those big cities, those immigrants who "rob" America of its soul. You claim that without them, America would be nothing, and yet with them, America is being robbed.
Pardon me if I'm the least bit confused by whatever you said.

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Lifetime ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Morgan_Corbesant:

did you know that tens of billions of dollars are spent EVERY year to keep murderers and the like in prisons, where they live better inside then they did outside? people go to prison, and dont care because alot of them get cable television, three hot meals a day, a place to sleep, books to read, letters from loved ones, hot water for showers, games to play, a yard to work out in, or shoot hoops etc. these people MURDERED and raped people, they should have none of this stuff. i dont want the money that i work hard to earn to go to some asshole who raped and murdered a whole family, including raping the young girls of said family. these "people" are animals, and should be killed, not living in a lap of luxory. if someone commits a crime i can understand something like a county run facility for a little while, but people who commit haneous (spelling)and violent acts like murder and rape just need to be put to death right away. not spend twenty years in prison with appeal after appeal after appeal, just to walk away later on, or be put to death after so long a time, only to die old anyway. my money should be spent on ME and MY family, or families who need help do to disasters and the like. i know about all of this, because i met a guy recently who said he was "reformed" after spending nearly twenty years in prison for killing his wife. he told me about all of the stuff that they did in prison, and it pissed me off to the point that i had to leave.
<hr></blockquote>

People in Australia often complain that people in prisons have it too easy as well. But surely the real punishment of being in prison is lack of freedom. However comfy their bed is, or how reasonable the food is etc, I would think that simply knowing that you are not going to be able to see your family everyday, provide for them, do whatever you want for years and years would counteract any supposed luxuries they may enjoy. You would know that your family would have stigma and shame that you were in prison, that you would have so much trouble finding a job when you were released, that your kids would grow up without you. I doubt whether they sleep on a comfy mattress, or bare boards, or have three hot meals or gruel once a day would really make so much difference to the fact that they are going to be there and not leave for however long their sentence is. But perhaps a concentration camp style setup would be more to your liking? You talk about being in prison for 20 years like it's nothing - that's as long as I have lived! Do you know how many people on death row that have been found to be innocent when using their right to 'appeal after appeal'? If you had your way innocent people would have been killed straight away - and you call this justice.

Morgan_Corbesant, you got one thing right. those people should be killed slowly and painfully

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 250:
Morgan_Corbesant, you got one thing right. those people should be killed slowly and painfully<hr></blockquote>
I don't think anyone should be killed slow and painfully. Its respect for live that makes us human.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dreamer128:

I don't think anyone should be killed slow and painfully. Its respect for live that makes us human.<hr></blockquote>

thats bull. I am not human when it comes to treatment for murders and rapists

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: 250 ]</p>

Great post Dreamer. I think both us British and the Americans could do with heading towards more liberal societies. And 250 I think we should give you the chance to kill a murderer/rapist slowly and painfully and then we'd see how much you really believe they should die like that.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 250:
Morgan_Corbesant, you got one thing right. those people should be killed slowly and painfully<hr></blockquote>

so, are you the one in charge of the torture and execution?

or maybe you would prefer to pay somebody to do the task for you?

you two dont know shit, so quit it

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: 250 ]</p>

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 250:
you two dont know shit, so quit it
<hr></blockquote>


nice. interesting debates with enlightened persons that know shit is always welcomed. excuse me whilst i take a few hours to ponder the depth of your excellently phrased response. good day to you.

Cool it people, let us not let tempers flare here. I believe that all can be forgiven, and no crime unpardonable, so long as forgiveness and pardon is earned. If a man who has forfeited 20 years of his life in jail to ponder upon what he has done, and decides to change, should he not be given as much opportunity as anyone else to live? Passion has no room in government because it gets in the way of good decency and common sense. What might be true to 250 might not hold true for anyone else, but in government all people are represented, and all people have say.
250, if you're not human when it comes to murderers and rapists, you forfeit your right to be treated as one, because if murderers and rapists weren't human for several moments when they commited those crimes, and are punished for it, then I should think you are no less deserving of the same fate you have prescribed.
You may be human, but for those moments in your life when you look at a murderer in the eye and tell him he doesnt have the right to live, you arent a person.

my answer is so ■■■■■■■ what?

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 250:
you two dont know shit, so quit it
<hr></blockquote>

For gods sakes 250 stop this will you!

You seem to think that you CANNOT be possibly wrong and that anything you say should be taken as scripture.
If you want to add to a debate than add to it! But a debate is an argument based on DIFFERING opinions and views which you seem to think incomprehensible.
Grow up.

Thats just beautiful 250. An argument that transcends the normal bounds of reason and leaps straight into the subconscious via swearwords. I used to be a socialist but now I am seriosly considering changing my entire philosiphy.

Anyway, what I have to say seriously is that everyone is a human being. Whatever they are doing they are still human. I don't think that we have the right to kill them and I don't think it will help anything either. Is executing a murderer going to stop other people murdering? It appears not because America has a higher crime rate than Britain despite many states relying on capital punishment. So what does it solve? Does it make us feel better? I don't know. Anyway, thats what I think on the matter.

Aurewolf, you are telling me to what? grow up? while you dont know the least thing about it, funny

I tell you what, there is no excuse for murder or rape. any one of your people was raped? has any one of your family members being murdered?? talking about ■■■■■■■ forgiveness then!!!! loads of bullshit!

yeah they are humanbeing, just look at what they did to other "fellow human beings". a death sentence is the least deserving thing to the scum shit on my list. once they did what they did, they have no rights to be treated as humanbeings. let God do the forgiving job, we will arrange the meeting.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by AzureWolf:

You seem to think that you CANNOT be possibly wrong and that anything you say should be taken as scripture.<hr></blockquote>

first of all I dont think like that. second, even if I do, is it your busines??? back off

allrite this debate is just becoming a slanging match. Can we not just leave it now.

250, you were out of line here, mate. Swearing at other people in a discussion and telling them that they "don't know shit" is not acceptable here and I thought you knew that by now.

If you feel emotionally/personally about a topic and can't discuss it in a civil manner, then don't discuss it at all. Walk away. No need to be so aggressive to other people who are just stating their opinion. I'm disappointed in you.

To everyone else: I'll keep this open but any more of this type of rubbish and this discussion is history. Is this clear?

Well, I'm actually quite glad that when I came back to this topic that there is quite a few people whose view is similar to mine, so obviously I'm not just a lone weirdo, but anyway, 250, you said that a murderer/rapist deserves to die slowly and painfully, but as I said earlier, that means you would be doing the exact same wrong as them (in the murderers case anyway) you would be taking someones life without the right to.
HOWEVER much they deserve to die.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lifetime:
I believe that all can be forgiven, and no crime unpardonable, so long as forgiveness and pardon is earned. If a man who has forfeited 20 years of his life in jail to ponder upon what he has done, and decides to change, should he not be given as much opportunity as anyone else to live?<hr></blockquote>

Not if he took someone elses life, ok, so he spends 20 years of his life in prison for killing someone, that's nothing compared to the lifetime that the victim lost, not to mention any children they might have had, which will also never get a chance to be born and live, by the simple act of a single killing hundreds, even thousands of potential lives are lost. ok maybe not lost, but never even given the chance to exist.

And who can they possbly attone for this crime to, society? the same society which would pardon the criminal has no authority to forgive a crime like this, only god, so by simply speeding up the meeting, how is it any different than hunting down Bin Laden and killing him?

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Morgeruat ]</p>

It would be nice if everything worked the way it was supposed to. Only guilty people get convicted, right? I think if you knew just how many innocent people fell to the coercement of plea-bargaining, you'd be surprised. Particularly people who need to use the free counsel provided by the state. Why not just hold guns to their heads and tell them to confess. It has the same effect on their resolve.

That point made, let's remember that prison is not meant to be just a punishment. It's meant to reform someone and turn a menace into a productive person. You have to do something constructive with them! Remember, the whipped dog bites the most. You can't reform someone by hurting them constantly. You have to follow a breaking down with a building up. A reward system that stimulates them to act a certain way. Most prisons are sorely lacking in this area. Remember also, the serial rapist and killer that is depicted on TV rarely exists in the real world. A lot of criminals have very complex issues leading to what they did. There can be a lot of mitigating circumstances. It would be nice if they were all evil and it was nice and black and white. Guess what though, once convicted they all go to the same place. Do you know how many relatively harmless drug users are in prison? Some with longer sentences than violent criminals.

Have you ever seen how nasty domestic cases get? I have a freind who, when younger, accepted a plea bargain on a class D felony theft he didn't commit. What happened? His wife wanted a divorce. She quit paying on his truck and it was reposessed. $500 worth of stolen tools were magically in the vehicle when the police emptied it of personal effects. Once he was arrested when he went to the station to get his stuff, the wife and her brother came in with a few more items they claimed to find around the house and offered to testify against him. I guess he might lie about it, but it smells like a set up to me. The state provided lawyer was very helpful in recommending he accept the plea bargain and just get some probation. A that time, he didn't realize just what having a felony record could do to you, regardless of severity. My point here, is that the justice system can be quite flawed and it's usually the poor and lower middle class who get shafted. Thus my beef with plea bargains.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lifetime:
America is not all "towns and villages" friend. America is a multi-racial place, and multi-cultural, because it stands for equal right and opportunity for all.<hr></blockquote>

I agree, it does give an equal opportunity to all, and America is a country of opportuinities. I also do know its a multi racial place, but most of it is composed about a peaceful living stile. Majority of America is made up of towns my friend, and I do check stats...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lifetime:
So what would your complaint be to Russian or Pakistan or Spanish-owned businesses if they provide people like yourself with a honest living? Do those people have any less of a right to work than any other American?
If that issint America, then what is?<hr></blockquote>

Honest deal? Honest living? Are you sick?! You dont live around here in New York do you? I dont think so. Come here for a day, live one day of my life and see how honest those Spanish and Pakistanian places go buy. How much racisim it involves, how many sneaky and dirty things they do. You have no idea, so please dont say such unless you actually know.


I'm not trying to flame you, but I'm wondering what your point is. You call the place you live in a zoo, your home country a place run by thieves, complain that people like yourself own businesses in big cities while they are the ones giving you a decent job, and then state that American living is in small quiet towns. Big cities have their place.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Lifetime:
Money saved from cutting down on prison expenses could and should go into upgrading the standard of life in the slums and districts of big cities like NY, but why rob America of its diversity and culture by making Russian/Spanish/Pakistan owned businesses shut down or go away? These people are as much America as "Americans", as you said, so how does their being there make America not like "America"?
Those very "talents" you spoke of that America was built on ARE in those foreign businesses, those big cities, those immigrants who "rob" America of its soul. You claim that without them, America would be nothing, and yet with them, America is being robbed.
Pardon me if I'm the least bit confused by whatever you said.<hr></blockquote>

I was talking mainly about New York and Morgans main post. New York has so many closed minded folk that are pure idiots that run these buisnesses, I'm talking about BIG things that those "immigrants" did that America would not be able to do without them, not delies, and laundry mats or movie theaters.

The bottom line of my post is America needs to stop its loose living of letting so much stuff slide by, like theivery in goverment which is very small right now. Some of America entertaiment is crap! Its promotes things that other countires never had! Russia did not need RAP in it, we did not need Russian Metalists "Rockers" fighting against Russian Rappers on main streets of Moscow, and those fights are so brutal you would not even imagine. And America brought rap to Russia, you have no idea how serious these things are, these are not just some after school fights, these are BIG I mean HUGE 200 people rushing against another 200 people in central Moscow. Movies like Swordfish, things that Hollywood movies show promotes terroristic acts. I find Swordfish the movie and the Bin Laden Attack very similar. It almost seems as it has inspired him to do an attack like that. Same thing with bunch of other titles out there, they show hackers that spended hours and years coming after work and spending nights in front of their computer learning hacks and then thats how the movies start, what kinda crappy messege is Hollywood giving out? A depressed person becomes a hacker and steals stacks of gold from the main Manhattan treasury? And where is this theifvery with New York and its business ran by Russians and other ethnic backrounds going to go? I mean just look at it! Where is this all going to end up? Freedom of chaos perhaps?

What I'm saying is America needs to think a little of where its going. We dont want things getting out of hand now do we? And honestly I love America on all other apsects, its a great country as I've said. A country of opportunity and freedom, but where is this freedom going? This entertaiment? Where is going to go eventually? I dont think MTV is going unite the generations of teens growing up in America by saying thats its O.K. to be a rapper and rocker and whatever those terms are today heh, MTV is not going to do that, most of the teens in New York are lazy slobs, and I'm pretty sure there are many great teens on this Forum, its just sort of shows the difference between the people and their personalities. Well and yet again I dont know where I'm going with this :D heh heh but well I'm sure you get my main point here...

[ 01-14-2002: Message edited by: Durwyn ]</p>

Ditto here Morgan. Death shall be swift and just.

Actually, Durwyn, I agree with you more than you think!
I do believe that businesses and the entertainment industry should clean up their act (especially about that thing about Rap music..why the music industry promotes and encourages "artists" who dress and act no different from the regular hood in the street and supports this whole "gangsta" image is beyond me. Rap music is nearly 90% all about sex, drugs, abuse, violence and guns. I cant see that having a positive effect on anyone. But back to the subject..

I DO understand where you're going though, and I agree that America has to change this White-Trash image most people have of the average America. While America is possibly the largest influence on the world today, not all of that influence is good. I was merely trying to look at whats positive in America today, because griping about how wrong it is never changed anything about it. My relation with this and the subject of prisons and the like is that, like what Sir Kenyth said, they have to be a place of REFORM, as well as serve as a deterrant. Prisons ARE a punishment,but a punishment that encourages prisoners to change their ways to avoid going back. Instead of making America a harsher place, we should really make it a place where truely everyone has equal opportunity, thus giving an alternative to a trashy life of polluting the streets of places like NY with stuff like drugs, or gangsta culture, or violence, or the encouragement of cheap, casual sex.

The whole idea behind this is all about second chances. Nobody likes to go to prison, and nobody likes to live a harsh life on the streets. Neither of the people forced into these circumstances have much in the way of a second chance to change things. Ex-cons are ostracized by society, and most of the people on the streets today have had little in the way of education or social care. Instead of cracking down on them, change them. Change the way people look at them, and change the way they look at people..

Its funny cause in Singapore, there's been a recent set of advertisements which show a suspicious character brandishing a knife, or a tattoo-ed, mean looking fellow picking up a little girl in the street, but at the ads continue on the camera zooms out and shows the man with the knife working in a kitchen, and the tattoo-ed man with the kid meeting a decent, respectable lady, presumeably the kid's mother. The purpose of the ad is to show that even ex-cons can be beneficial and serve useful and honest roles in society, once they have been reformed and changed in prison (the ad is also a recruitment ad for the SPEAR tear, a branch of law-enforcement that deals with prisons, their tag-line being "Captains of Lives")
Its a very idealistic and utopian dream, but its enough to make me re-consider my attitude towards a lot of people who seem less-than-decent or suspicious.

The advert is quite obviously biased and if that is enough to make you change your attitude then I feel your pretty naive(spelling?).

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Smeagol:
The advert is quite obviously biased and if that is enough to make you change your attitude then I feel your pretty naive(spelling?).<hr></blockquote>

I think "Idealised" is a better word than biased. I think from what was said the advert probably had a good point. You can't just write off a person who has done something wrong. There is always the possibility for redemption and therefore if we take the harsh option we are probably harming society as much as the criminal. I agree it doesn't work as often as I would like, but is there any wonder? Someone (I forget who, sorry whoever you are!) posted a story about a friend who found life impossible with a criminal record. There is a good reason most people reoffend - they have no other option, or they are still suffering from the same mental problems that caused the first offence. Anyway, I think the advert makes a good point - we can't be too quick to throw away what could still be useful.

But then another branch pops in. If we want prisoners to "change" their views and life why give them such "live large" life? Its much better for a bum in New York to commit a crime and go to prison. Prisons, espesially now are fancy! You cant imagine, food, clothes, blankets, movies. I mean c'mon this is BS! Money that New York needs to make it better is going to some murderers and rapists who have comitted terrible crimes...Its wrong... no progress...

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Hiram Sedai:


my question is why haven't you been banned yet?<hr></blockquote>

you got a problem with me or what??

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by 250:


you got a problem with me or what??<hr></blockquote>

I'll reply to that question via PM.