Looking at Cloudy's PM post reminded me of a question I've had for ages re the English language.

Why, in the past few years, has everyone started using the ' for plurals (not picking on you Cloudy, this is SO common - I've seen it in huge billboard ads. In fact, I think it is because it is so common that we've all started doing it, if that makes sense [img]smile.gif[/img] .. )

How did it start? Is it to do with Microsoft grammar/spelling corrections (being wrong...)

The ' is used for possessives, not plurals.

So, these are correct:

Mandy's book, Cloudy's post, Yorick's guitar, Saz's sigs..

These aren't:

CD's, video's, PM's, 100's, 1960's, bank's, and so on. The correct usage is CDS, videos, PMs, 100s, 1960s, banks.

Does anyone know how this trend started? It seems to have gone from 0 - 60 in less than five years. As a professional writer and editor, I come across it all the time. In fact, I've started doing it myself, when I don't pay attention.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Or is there a little known rule in the English language that I am just not aware of?

I do it cause Im brain dead when I type [img]smile.gif[/img]

My early grammar teachers (Catholic Nuns) would beat me silly if they caught me [img]smile.gif[/img]

I think you are referring to MLA form for CDs, 1960s, etc. I may be wrong, but possibly in the old Chicago Manual of Style, it may have been the other way.

Perhaps that is the difference. As in that it is correct in proper names to say the for the plural the Jones' or the Jones's.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MagiK:
I do it cause Im brain dead when I type [img]smile.gif[/img]

My early grammar teachers (Catholic Nuns) would beat me silly if they caught me [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

No, I don't think so MagiK! Everyone is doing it, but everyone! A few years ago, you would see the occasional misplaced ' which would be a genuine mistake. Nowadays, people in the UK (I don't know about other English speaking countries) use it thinking it is completely correct, - as I said, I've seen it in huge billboard ads, which means the proof readers haven't picked it up as a mistake.

Any more suggestions?

It annoys me no end.
Glad it isn't just me that noticed this - I do it ocassionally, but am usually highly embarrassed when I discover my mistake [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

I've noticed it as well, recently, one of my classmates had written an essay where all of the plurals were with ' instead of just an s.

Yup, apostrophes are only used in 2 ways-
possesive and omissive.
This means only if the described object belongs to some one, e.g Bob's hairy back, and omissive when used to omit letters, e.g
can't and couldn't
So there shouldn't be any opther apostrophes AT ALL!

This has all the makings of a apostrophy catastrophy :D

When my kids were still attending public school (I homeschool them now), I would see such things on their papers. I asked the teachers about it, and I was told this was accepted policy! I argued endlessly with these ppl as I *knew* differently, but all I got in return was the 'I'm a school teacher and all you are is a parent' routine. Geez!! I have more education than a lot of those ppl *and* a great deal more language training!

So whenever I screw up, guys, it's because the typo daemon is visiting and/or I'm too lazy (or sleepy) to correct myself [img]smile.gif[/img]

Ack... [img]graemlins/blush.gif[/img]
I *know* I must have made this mistake myself on occasion, even though I know it is incorrect. The problem is, in Dutch, this *is* the correct way to make plurals out of quite a few words (especially words adopted from English). We even have spellings like "baby's" where you have "babies"! :eek: It is quite confusing. But, you are right, Cheetah, and I'll try to scour my posts for things like these even better ;) I hate it when I make blatant mistakes in English *grumbles*

They ought to make a "Grammar Mod" a moderator who's only task was to correct incorrect grammar and spelling in all posts that he/she came across..... Tons of work though....

Grammar police!?

AAAACCCCKKKK!

My legal fees for apostrophies alone will run me broke!

Maybe I could BE a grammar policeman! Yeah, that's it! Do I get a really loud whistle and a badge and everything?


Seriously though, it's a common mistake. I do it all the time. I try to catch it as often as I can. I didn't realize it was becoming a mainstream grammar modification. Kind of like when they spell the Drive through window at McDonalds "Drive-Thru", and then get mad at kids for spelling it wrong at school!

I took this from an old grammer guide I keep in my office, I think I picked it up back in University from my Freshman English seminar professor...

Apostrophes are sometimes used to make acronyms or other abbreviations plural.

"They took their SAT's," or "They took their SATs."

Apostrophes may be used when no apostrophe might be confusing.

"Two As" or "Two A's"

Apostrophes should never be used as quotation marks to set off words or phrases unless used for a quotation within a quotation.

Apostrophes should not be used before the s for decades.

1970s or the '70s is acceptable.
1970's or '70's is not acceptable.

I would hardly consider this authoritative, but at least it shows that you're not the only one who has noticed this phenomenon...

LOL...Call it a mistake, call it a typo or in some cases, dear Cheetah, the individuals aren't native English speakers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And it is true, since the electronic age became the standard for communication it has become more and more acceptable to 'understand' even if the item is mispelled or incorrect in grammar. Not that it is preferable, but it is commonplace.

Hmm.. if you refer to my use of pm's as a plural.. HAHAHAHAHAH.. oh my... THAT has a logical explanation if not a grammatically pure one... HAHAHAHA [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] *picks self up from floor and wipes eyes* "pms" by itself can be taken for "pre-menstrual syndrome" and I've had the joke made so often, I just changed my usage of the abbreviation to make it clear I didn't mean that! LOLOL

Cloudy, giggling her way back from lunch

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Cloudbringer:
LOL...Call it a mistake, call it a typo or in some cases, dear Cheetah, the individuals aren't native English speakers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

And it is true, since the electronic age became the standard for communication it has become more and more acceptable to 'understand' even if the item is mispelled or incorrect in grammar. Not that it is preferable, but it is commonplace.

Hmm.. if you refer to my use of pm's as a plural.. HAHAHAHAHAH.. oh my... THAT has a logical explanation if not a grammatically pure one... HAHAHAHA [img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] *picks self up from floor and wipes eyes* "pms" by itself can be taken for "pre-menstrual syndrome" and I've had the joke made so often, I just changed my usage of the abbreviation to make it clear I didn't mean that! LOLOL

Cloudy, giggling her way back from lunch<hr></blockquote>

Not sure if everyone understood my reason for posting this. It actually *wasn't* to draw attention to the standard of grammar on the forum, or elsewhere else for that matter.

More that a few years ago, this use of the apostrophe was something you would see occasionally. Now you see it everywhere, but EVERYWHERE.

What I am interested in is 'Why it changed' and when did it?


Cloudy, I quite see why you'd want to put PM's... !! [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Argus:
I took this from an old grammer guide I keep in my office, I think I picked it up back in University from my Freshman English seminar professor...

Apostrophes are sometimes used to make acronyms or other abbreviations plural.

"They took their SAT's," or "They took their SATs."

Apostrophes may be used when no apostrophe might be confusing.

"Two As" or "Two A's"

Apostrophes should never be used as quotation marks to set off words or phrases unless used for a quotation within a quotation.

Apostrophes should not be used before the s for decades.

1970s or the '70s is acceptable.
1970's or '70's is not acceptable.

I would hardly consider this authoritative, but at least it shows that you're not the only one who has noticed this phenomenon...<hr></blockquote>

Ok, so it started off as a legitimate usage with acronym's. That makes sense....

So I wonder why it spread to the point where video's, book's and grammatical error's are all now commonplace?

I think it must have something to do with the Microsoft spelling checker, which doesn't pick up on the out of place apostrophe's at all, assuming they are possessive's.

Lots of people don't have a spelling checker in their head, and rely on the software. Hence the proliferation of this new usage.

Does that make sense?

spookily enough it does make a creapy sence, its a conspiracy at microsoft :D lol

I was glad to see the post that the apostophe can be correct when used to avoid confusion. I personally use PM'S , (don't want people to think I'm saying "I got your PM syndrome ;) )

I personally don't mind seening grammatical mistakes in emails and foruming, I'm guilty of not always proofing before I post, and as was pointed out, people have different skill levels in english.

But when it creeps into billboards, magazines, and newspapers, it makes my blood boil! These people are professional wordsmiths, for crying out loud; they are paid for their mastery of the language. There is no excuse, none, for bad grammar in the media.

DEATH TO THE MISPLACED APOSTROPHE!!! IMPEACH THE POORLY USED
SEMI-COLON!!! JOIN ME, MY BROTHERS TO SAVE OUR BELOVED TONGUE!!!

(I hope these word's made sense: I didnt mean to people with grammar shortcoming's)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Merkin:
I was glad to see the post that the apostophe can be correct when used to avoid confusion. I personally use PM'S , (don't want people to think I'm saying "I got your PM syndrome ;) )

I personally don't mind seening grammatical mistakes in emails and foruming, I'm guilty of not always proofing before I post, and as was pointed out, people have different skill levels in english.

But when it creeps into billboards, magazines, and newspapers, it makes my blood boil! These people are professional wordsmiths, for crying out loud; they are paid for their mastery of the language. There is no excuse, none, for bad grammar in the media.

DEATH TO THE MISPLACED APOSTROPHE!!! IMPEACH THE POORLY USED
SEMI-COLON!!! JOIN ME, MY BROTHERS TO SAVE OUR BELOVED TONGUE!!!

(I hope these word's made sense: I didnt mean to people with grammar shortcoming's)<hr></blockquote>

Yes, exactly. Damn right!! [img]smile.gif[/img]

Emails are the best place for being creative with language in that 'sod the punctuation' short of way. On a forum, I don't care about use of grammar etc UNLESS the person is trying to make a serious point during a serious discussion. Using grammar incorrectly can totally hash the point being made, led to something completely different being understood from what was actually intended. So I guess it's a case of 'use bad grammar at own risk'....

As a professional wordsmith myself, I would like to point out that in advertising, it often doesn't work to use grammar correctly. (i.e. you end up with a long tedious sentence rather than a short sharp message.... ) However, there's no excuse for spelling mistakes whatsoever!

Cheetah gives all offenders a BIG SMACK and makes them stand with their backs turned for an hour, whilst the rest of the class plays in the sand pit before gorging on special milk and biscuits.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Looking at Cloudy's PM post reminded me of a question I've had for ages re the English language.

Why, in the past few years, has everyone started using the ' for plurals (not picking on you Cloudy, this is SO common - I've seen it in huge billboard ads. In fact, I think it is because it is so common that we've all started doing it, if that makes sense [img]smile.gif[/img] .. )

How did it start? Is it to do with Microsoft grammar/spelling corrections (being wrong...)

The ' is used for possessives, not plurals.

So, these are correct:

Mandy's book, Cloudy's post, Yorick's guitar, Saz's sigs..

These aren't:

CD's, video's, PM's, 100's, 1960's, bank's, and so on. The correct usage is CDS, videos, PMs, 100s, 1960s, banks.

Does anyone know how this trend started? It seems to have gone from 0 - 60 in less than five years. As a professional writer and editor, I come across it all the time. In fact, I've started doing it myself, when I don't pay attention.... [img]smile.gif[/img]

Or is there a little known rule in the English language that I am just not aware of?<hr></blockquote>

The reason is simple, my love. [img]smile.gif[/img] In the UK anyway: they don't really teach grammar in schools any more. Not saying they don't get ANY grammar teaching, just that it is peripheral and 'unimportant'.
But look at it this way.... English was constrained by having Latin grammar imposed upon Anglo-Saxon. Now, we are going into a grammar free-fall which allows a greater growth in the language......
Well....... maybe! ;)

My apostrophe mistakes are usually regarding its and it's. It is only recently that I have stopped putting in an apostrophe when it wasn't a possesive...!

no idea why, just know that i dont do it [img]smile.gif[/img] . studied writing and grammar rules too long to mess up like that!

Just a small point on the Pre Menstrual Syndrome thing...

As an acronym, one would correctly use PMS as oppose to PMs. Abbreviations should be capitalised.

I hate incorrect apostrophes almost as much as I hate double negatives and lazy people who post (thankfully never on this board) huge diatribes without capital letters, paragraphs, punctuation or anything that would encourage people like me to read beyond the first sentence.

[img]tongue.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:


The reason is simple, my love. [img]smile.gif[/img] In the UK anyway: they don't really teach grammar in schools any more. Not saying they don't get ANY grammar teaching, just that it is peripheral and 'unimportant'.
But look at it this way.... English was constrained by having Latin grammar imposed upon Anglo-Saxon. Now, we are going into a grammar free-fall which allows a greater growth in the language......
Well....... maybe! ;) <hr></blockquote>

That's true. We didn't get taught any grammar when I was at school, well not in any comprehensive manner anyway. It's a shame really, it's one thing having a dynamic language where new words can be made up, but I personally hate seeing incorrect punctuation.

On a similar topic, I must say I enjoy hearing all these new verbs people (especially sports commentators) make up. The other day someone was said to be 'box-seating' :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Aelia Jusa:


That's true. We didn't get taught any grammar when I was at school, well not in any comprehensive manner anyway. It's a shame really, it's one thing having a dynamic language where new words can be made up, but I personally hate seeing incorrect punctuation.

On a similar topic, I must say I enjoy hearing all these new verbs people (especially sports commentators) make up. The other day someone was said to be 'box-seating' :D <hr></blockquote>

I'm terribly torn about the way language is changing. Part of me is screaming "No! No! Its not MEANT to be like that! It should be like THIS.....!"
And the other part of me is saying "Yippee! Go, man, go! Innovation forever!"
Maybe its just my Piscean nature showing... Or my age! :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:


I'm terribly torn about the way language is changing. Part of me is screaming "No! No! Its not MEANT to be like that! It should be like THIS.....!"
And the other part of me is saying "Yippee! Go, man, go! Innovation forever!"
Maybe its just my Piscean nature showing... Or my age! :D <hr></blockquote>

Well new words have been being made up for millenia, all languages are dynamic, I don't think it's any different now, relatively anyway. And some words that were once considered colloquial are common usage now. I was going to write I like the way people are 'verbifying' nouns, but I didn't want to shock anyone lol :D

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Fljotsdale:
My apostrophe mistakes are usually regarding its and it's. It is only recently that I have stopped putting in an apostrophe when it wasn't a possesive...!<hr></blockquote>

This I always found confusing, because it seems it should be "it's" for "it is" and for possessive usage, but there are more exceptions than rules in the English language.

I always knew it was only to be used with omission or possession, but could never remember which...lol [img]smile.gif[/img]

You tell'em Silver Cheetah. We the English will not stand by and see our age old language devoluted and polluted by incorrect usage! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Hmmm, hate to be the cynical one here...but maybe the advertisers used the misplaced punctuation or poor spelling on purpose? After all, the goal of advertising is to attract people's attention. Maybe some clever ad agent thought that they would differentiate their ad from the myriad of ads surrounding it by inserting poor punctuation or spelling mistakes. People would therefore immediately pull-up and read the ad as they subconsciously detect that something about the ad is demanding their attention, or "not quite right". The conspiracy continues... ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Argus:
Hmmm, hate to be the cynical one here...but maybe the advertisers used the misplaced punctuation or poor spelling on purpose? After all, the goal of advertising is to attract people's attention. Maybe some clever ad agent thought that they would differentiate their ad from the myriad of ads surrounding it by inserting poor punctuation or spelling mistakes. People would therefore immediately pull-up and read the ad as they subconsciously detect that something about the ad is demanding their attention, or "not quite right". The conspiracy continues... ;) <hr></blockquote>

I might go for that...... IF the general population actually noticed the mistakes, lol! Most people accept 'em as correct! Gaaaahhhhh!!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:


This I always found confusing, because it seems it should be "it's" for "it is" and for possessive usage, but there are more exceptions than rules in the English language.

I always knew it was only to be used with omission or possession, but could never remember which...lol [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>

*Clutches forehead* TELL me about it - not! At least America sort of rationalised some of the English spelling! I hover between thinking it a good thing and loyally sticking with traditional English spelling! I PREFER the spelling COLOR, for example, but continue to use COLOUR. I'm just a crazy mixed up old lady, lol!