I have noticed when one of our Moderators or I ban or suspend (Or ask for an account to be banned/suspended) that the we get emails from others--usually friends of the banned or Suspended user asking us not to, or to reconsider.

Please, don't do this. It will not change my mind, nor anyone elses. When we (or I) decide to take this action, it is final.

It's also just wrong to do. Please respect our Moderators and my decisions in these and all matters related to the board.

We do NOT 'take sides', and we are totally unbiased when making judgements in matters here. We play no favorites.

Just wanted to say this:

Because when we make a decision -- [img]graemlins/survivor.gif[/img]

:D

I can imagine it's annoying when your inbox is flooding with dozeens of posts about the same subject [img]smile.gif[/img]
But I know, and everyone knows, moderators and webmasters are only human and sometimes make a mistake, acting too fast or behaving too strict, for example. In such a case I think it's a good thing people point this out, provided they have valid arguments against the banning or suspending. These are usually the friends of a banned or suspended member, not only because they care more about their friend's fate, but also because they are more aware of that member's actions to that point and can, at times, give a better judgement than a moderator.

That's not to say you should allow everything, and that all bannings or suspensions are undeserved. Most of the time your judgement is correct, though on some days you are quicker to suspend than on others.


I will of course respect your desicion and do my best not send any mails, but if I truly feel the suspending or banning was undeserved I doubt if I can keep my mouth shut. I think this goes for a lot of other members too, and the banning or suspending of an older member will almost always get you replies.

But, like I said, as long as the banning or suspending is not totally undeserved, no pleading mails from me.

It does bear repeating, Ziroc, and thank you for posting it. Naming no names, but there has been a recent trend of people once again accusing mods of having double standards and playing unfair. (Not here in Gen Con, thank goodness, but in other forums).

Get this through, guys: Ziroc owns this place. He makes the rules. This "ain't no" public park or civic center. Your tax dollars don't support Ironworks. This isn't a corporation, with the members being the stockholders (thank the heavens!). This is a privately owned forum, and as far as I can tell, is one of the better run and more lenient ones out there. This isn't a democracy. There is no congress or parliament here. It's a dictatorship, guys. A very benevolent one, but a dictatorship. Guess what? So's every other privately owned forum on the Internet. A lot of those aren't so benevolent. Welcome to our world.

Banning and suspending are NOT taken lightly here. These are extreme measures taken only when a member has repeatedly acted in an inappropriate manner to the detriment of the board and to other members' participation in that board. Now we have seen a suspension and a ban as of yesterday. Both of those members had been repeatedly warned of their behavior, and yet persisted in doing the very same things they had been warned about. In that case, it is Ziroc's perogative to enact whatever measures he sees fit for the benefit of the overall board. BTW, just because you don't see a public posting of someone being reprimanded doesn't mean that it didn't happen. Most of the warnings take place via private e-mail to avoid public humiliation. Again, not all boards are so "nice."

We have repeatedly had a call to publicly excoriate one of our members at IW for offhand remarks he made at the expense of others in one of the other forums here. That member has been warned and reprimanded for his actions as per our policies, and he backed off and DID NOT REPEAT HIS BEHAVIOR. Yet there's a contingency out there howling for his blood; that nothing less than a virtual "public lynching" will satisfy their bloodlust, and who scream every time someone is reprimanded that Ziroc and the mods have a "double standard" and are playing favorites. Never mind that we've seen far worse posted by other members who were also neither banned nor suspended. (Don't call me on this...I can pull up old threads as proof. My memory's not THAT bad!)

This is what Ziroc is referring to. Now, as far as I know, no one else is in any danger of being suspended or banned. When Ziroc makes a ruling such as this, you certainly do not have to agree. But you must agree to abide by whatever decision he makes. That's the rules here, guys.

OK, rant mode off (finally!)

I have to support Z totally here and Saz. I have only been an admin on another forum for about three weeks now and I have found out the hard way that things go on that ONLY the admins and mods know about. In some cases, information that ONLY the admins receive about inappropriate behavior by members. What I am saying is this. Many times, ONLY the admins and mods have a complete picture of what has been and is going on. Some of this is due to trying to protect the privacy of members on the forums. I know it is easy to sit back and second guess what an admin or mod does (I've done it myself many times), but I have found out that when it comes to bannings and suspensions, the ONLY people with all the facts and knowledge about the situation are the admins and mods.

I can say that in all the time I have been here, I have NEVER known Z to ban someone and it did not turn out to be justified. And even though I belong to other forums, I still think IW is the best run one around. Our mods are fantastic. I say this, being an admin and mod myself elsewhere.

We all need to have some faith and confidence in Z and the excellent mods he has selected to run things. And we need to remember that things are not always what they seem.

Thanks, Z and all the mods. You all do a wonderful job and have my full support.

[img]smile.gif[/img]

I think any emails should not be sent to the already busy moderators but to the person suspended...

If you are a friend then you should have tried to stop him/her long ago and not wait for the suspension.

If you disagree, then you too are on the wrong forum.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Avatar:
I think any emails should not be sent to the already busy moderators but to the person suspended...

If you are a friend then you should have tried to stop him/her long ago and not wait for the suspension.

If you disagree, then you too are on the wrong forum.<hr></blockquote>

Wise words from Avatar everyone.

Sorry for being stupid, but who were banned? :confused:
I must have missed it!

And I agree with Reeka's and Saz's post that forums like these in the end belong to the owner, and if the owner makes a decision, that is his right to do so. Like Saz said, it's not a democracy but a privately owned forum, and though Ziroc is a reasonable guy, in the end HE has the final vote on anything that goes on here.

Hmm...someone's been banned?!
Why didn't someone tell me!!
*Guys, get your pitchforks and torches! Someone got banned!*
:D
No seriously, I respect whatever the mods say.
And, as Avatar said, if you were there fiend, why didn't you stop them?
Still, just as the mods, the members are also human, and it is a human reaction, trying to "help" your friend..no matter how much you neglected them before..

This is tricky..I wouldn't want to be in the mods shoes..

<font color="skyblue">Let me make an example of how private those private threads are in dealing with an accused suspect and a Moderator that is working the case...

I am a Moderator, and I have NO IDEA what is going on, nor who has been banned or suspended! Can you beleive that? :D
I used to think that if one moderator had a problem...they all communicated back and forth. I also used to think that Ziroc sent all mods a weekly report of things.(don't ask why I thought this...)...
The truth is that I am in the dark on all of it, unless it has happened at my doorstep, and even then, I am not told what actions are taking place to do someone in.</font>

If you have got a problem, why don't you set up a petition, where all you have to do is add your name, and one of the mods can veiw it and take it into consideration?
(Just a suggestion, if this is a bad idea tell me)

I think you're all supposed to act independantly Larry, and that's probably why becoming a moderator is also a question of trust - Ziroc feels you are trustworthy and a decent guy (true on both counts) and hereby feels safe with you moderating the forum. You should be flattered ;)

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
<font color="skyblue">Let me make an example of how private those private threads are in dealing with an accused suspect and a Moderator that is working the case...

I am a Moderator, and I have NO IDEA what is going on, nor who has been banned or suspended! Can you beleive that? :D
I used to think that if one moderator had a problem...they all communicated back and forth. I also used to think that Ziroc sent all mods a weekly report of things.(don't ask why I thought this...)...
The truth is that I am in the dark on all of it, unless it has happened at my doorstep, and even then, I am not told what actions are taking place to do someone in.</font><hr></blockquote>

After we upgrade again, I would love to see a private "Mods only" forum where all of the admins could be kept up-to-date on what the happenings are and be able to discuss these issues...because the PM's and the e-mails..heh...they don't work so good for more than 2 or three people.

Just to answer your question, though, Larry, the occurrences were over in the "forum that I do not name." ;)

Cheers,

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Sazerac:


After we upgrade again, I would love to see a private "Mods only" forum where all of the admins could be kept up-to-date on what the happenings are and be able to discuss these issues...because the PM's and the e-mails..heh...they don't work so good for more than 2 or three people.

Cheers,<hr></blockquote>

<font color="skyblue">
Hey! I like that idea! We could open a secret division of Cloudy's cafe, have drinks on the house, talk about the cute girls on Ironworks and how we are going to turn everyone into our mindless zombies! Yeah! We can invite select people over...and then throw +10 daggers of moderation at them! ...</font>

<font color="white">Er...maybe I should have sent this in a PM...
Darn...</font>

Just to re-iterate here, before Z's point is lost: Don't email Ziroc to re-think his suspend or ban decisions. He has asked that and as the owner of this forum he has the right to do so.

Bannings and suspensions are not done lightly, as several others, including Z, have said. The whole case is very likely NOT publicly known, so don't judge an incident based on what you know. It's probably less than half the story.

Reeka is very right! I'm an admin and mod on other boards and I know that it is a serious matter to consider removing someone from your board. Believe me, our webmaster here at Ironworks takes it very seriously. He and your mods are working for a better forum and we all want to keep things running smoothly so the members can enjoy their time here.

Sometimes things will happen that you just don't understand, but it will have a good reason. Z posted that we don't 'take sides' and as far as I'm concerned, we don't. We look at the whole picture for the good of the site and then decisions or suggestions are made.

Avatar had some good advice. If you see a friend breaking rules that will end up making trouble for your friend, why not pm the friend about in? It can't hurt!


Larry.. LOL, no worries, things work out in the end, even if we don't have weekly conference memos! [img]smile.gif[/img]


Cloudy

Saz, Larry,

The forum I am an admin on, has a private forum just for mods. It is a good thing because issues such as bannings, etc., can be discussed in private. Also, if we admins, want to get something out to all the mods, we can just post a thread in the mods forum. Very convenient. I think it would be a very good idea for here.

Just to let a few people know why I suspended Azure's account, it was for this comment:

--------
Amber are you saying that you haven't noticed that some of Yoricks posts have been down right insulting to other people? That IMO is BS. You cant have looked through this forum without noticing it at least once, I mean there was a thread about it in GD for godsakes. I know he isn't the only one who does this but the point that anti-war people get publicly denounced for doing the same thing that Yorick does, whos posts get conveniently overlooked by the same moderators etc who tell the anti-war people that if they dont settle down and stop it they will be banned. It is a double standard pure and simple.
--------

I (and the Mods) are sick of being accused of stuff that is not true.. as someone else said:

"I am incensed at Azurewolf's insinuation, once again, that the Mods and I do not play fair. This is ridiculous, and as far as I'm concerned, he's way out of line. It gets to be tiring having to always defend every single little move we make"

His account is only suspended for 2 weeks, not banned forever.. I like him, but won't stand for those insinuations--which are not true.

Also, it's always nice to see a certain other forum bash me for this.. ah well.. as we all know, you can't please everyone.

There was only a single person I know of who was banned, and that was for his very disturbing sig. (I will not give *any* details!) That sig would've gotten anyone banned in a heartbeat from nearly anywhere. That person truly did deserve his fate.
I see what Z is saying. It is his site and people shouldn't question his authority.

Why not tell who has been banned, people?!
(And this means everytime someone get banned, not just this one ;) )
Everybody can learn from eachothers mistakes, right?
You don't have to talk bad about the person, just tell why he was banned..

I have no idea of what lead to any recent bannings - nor do I need to. Sometimes I wonder why Z keeps this place going when he gets flak over his decisions.

For those that are interested, here is a fairly good statement of what private forums are all about and the relationship between forum owners and forum members. I don't claim that it exactly sums up Ziroc's attitude, but have a read and ponder on it before hassling him.

Wow!
I like how that guy spelled some of his stuff out!
It leaves no room for any discussion.
Ziroc is so kind to us.
We owe him more than we give him...

Has anyone been suspended just curious.


1drgat1

I think most people agree with the mods, to be frank I do and I think most of the community supports them about any decisions they make regarding banning or suspending.

Its a harsh thing to have to do Im sure, and I somewhat doubt its an easy decision to make but its for the good of the group. Attacking the people who run this place for the enjoyment of all is really in my simple and humble opinion stupid not to mention blind.

Im not going to drag this post out except to say a little respect for the people who do all the work here please.

Thank you.

well he is only banned temporarily... and not permament... still its sad to say these things

Ahh... I understand. It also has this impact on the mods too... banning someone isn't a good thing... and never does feel right... but it must be done for the greater good...

religion... crap [img]smile.gif[/img]

Question: Do all members get at least one warning before they are banned? For i know of several members that 'claim' to banned just for complaining about ironworks policy. I think everyone should keep in mind however that this is Z's board, and that we are just guests. Lets try to behave like that.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
I have no idea of what lead to any recent bannings - nor do I need to. Sometimes I wonder why Z keeps this place going when he gets flak over his decisions.

For those that are interested, here is a fairly good statement of what private forums are all about and the relationship between forum owners and forum members. I don't claim that it exactly sums up Ziroc's attitude, but have a read and ponder on it before hassling him.<hr></blockquote>

I particularly like these passages, Mouse:

<font color="#66ff99">Watchdogs are moderators of this forum. They are kind folks who volunteer their free time to help me maintain this forum and keep it clean of abuse. Note the emphasis on "volunteer" and "free time." Forum moderating is always hard work, and it's impossible to please everyone given the cultural and social diversity of this forum, so please realize that before you rant about how Watchdogs lock/delete your threads "by mistake." We ALL make mistakes: it's a matter of HOW you tell others about them that makes all the difference. Insults and slanders only make matters worse.

In order to maintain the civil atmosphere and keep things reasonably organized, Watchdogs will move, lock, or delete threads that do not belong in these forums. These include personally abusive, grotesquely off-topic and desperately surreal threads. This is not a democracy. This is a semi-benevolent dictatorship. Behave."</font>

It's an excellent article, and I'm glad you posted the link to it.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Dreamer128:
Question: Do all members get at least one warning before they are banned? For i know of several members that 'claim' to banned just for complaining about ironworks policy. I think everyone should keep in mind however that this is Z's board, and that we are just guests. Lets try to behave like that.<hr></blockquote>

There's an old Arabic saying that goes something like "Piss wherever you wish in your own house, but enter another man's house and you'd better not even spit on the floor." This is Ziroc's house that he has opened to us. If you spit on his floor, expect certain consequences to happen. They don't have to be logical. You don't have to agree with them. But they WILL happen.

Well, no one is god, and no one is perfect. Nor posters nor mods.

All do the best they can and sometimes things that aren´t pleasnt shows up.

Unfortunately thís question got a person I liked banned.

On the other hand I don´t take part in any of this cause I don´t know the full story, though I trust in the mods and Z to do what they think and judge the best for the situation.

I also see the points in the argument, but I´m not fully interested in it either, so I can only say this..

Do as good job you as you can, ie keep working. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I´m a lurker of my own actions and by current events both on forum and RL, and another forum that I try and put an effort into.

If this person likes to com back, he should talk with Ziroc, and I hope that iroc and this person can talk it out, if not. Tough luck..

I respect the mods here and Ziroc, and thats all I gonna say, even if I have private thoughts and disagreement with the actions, but I don´t voice them unless I have to.

Back to lurking, I just wanted to say my opinion since I have seen and heard things around..

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Melusine:
Sorry for being stupid, but who were banned? :confused:
I must have missed it!

<hr></blockquote>

AzureWolf has been suspended and I believe that Link has been banned indefinitely.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ziroc:
Just to let a few people know why I suspended Azure's account, it was for this comment:

--------
Amber are you saying that you haven't noticed that some of Yoricks posts have been down right insulting to other people? That IMO is BS. You cant have looked through this forum without noticing it at least once, I mean there was a thread about it in GD for godsakes. I know he isn't the only one who does this but the point that anti-war people get publicly denounced for doing the same thing that Yorick does, whos posts get conveniently overlooked by the same moderators etc who tell the anti-war people that if they dont settle down and stop it they will be banned. It is a double standard pure and simple.
--------

I (and the Mods) are sick of being accused of stuff that is not true.. as someone else said:

"I am incensed at Azurewolf's insinuation, once again, that the Mods and I do not play fair. This is ridiculous, and as far as I'm concerned, he's way out of line. It gets to be tiring having to always defend every single little move we make"

His account is only suspended for 2 weeks, not banned forever.. I like him, but won't stand for those insinuations--which are not true.

Also, it's always nice to see a certain other forum bash me for this.. ah well.. as we all know, you can't please everyone.<hr></blockquote>

Azure is a good mate of mine and I was very disappointed in what he said as this was the first I heard from him on this. I thought I deserved to hear it from him personally, rather than reading about it. Here was my response.

<font color="orange">
We have been accused of a lack of impartiality since this forum opened, especially with respect to Yorick. Yorick and others (from both sides) were reprimanded for their actions on this forum, especially with the Brits thread. Would you like us to publicly lash Yorick? Is a public lynching and humiliation of another poster what people want? I am getting REALLY annoyed at this constant BS about double-standard. I have had ONE PERSON contact me and complain about how this forum has been moderated. I think I'm a pretty fair person, I think Ziroc's a pretty fair person, and all this BS about double-standard is quite insulting to us, to be honest. We have had ONE banning in this forum since its inception and I think as admins we have bent over backwards to accomodate everyone's views.

</font>

Azure probably didn't realize that what he said was an attack on our integrity. Believe me when I say that the worst part of this job is disciplining people who should know better.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
I have no idea of what lead to any recent bannings - nor do I need to. Sometimes I wonder why Z keeps this place going when he gets flak over his decisions.

For those that are interested, here is a fairly good statement of what private forums are all about and the relationship between forum owners and forum members. I don't claim that it exactly sums up Ziroc's attitude, but have a read and ponder on it before hassling him.<hr></blockquote>

I especially like this bit from that guy:

<font color="silver">
No personal attacks will be tolerated. If you are angry with someone in the forum, take it up with him/her through private channels like e-mail or ICQ. Don't subject the rest of us to read your rants. Doing so will only lower our opinion of you.

Watchdogs are moderators of this forum. They are kind folks who volunteer their free time to help me maintain this forum and keep it clean of abuse. Note the emphasis on "volunteer" and "free time." Forum moderating is always hard work, and it's impossible to please everyone given the cultural and social diversity of this forum, so please realize that before you rant about how Watchdogs lock/delete your threads "by mistake." We ALL make mistakes: it's a matter of HOW you tell others about them that makes all the difference. Insults and slanders only make matters worse.

In order to maintain the civil atmosphere and keep things reasonably organized, Watchdogs will move, lock, or delete threads that do not belong in these forums. These include personally abusive, grotesquely off-topic and desperately surreal threads. This is not a democracy. This is a semi-benevolent dictatorship. Behave.

Note, I'm doing this for kicks, in my spare time. I don't get paid for it. This means, like waitresses and barstaff, I hold the right not to deal with you if you're being abusive to me. This is, of course, different to criticising my work. Calling me by any expletive will likely get you - yes, you've guessed it - banned.

Finally, don't come to me with freedom of speech arguments. This is a house. If you insult anyone or act a fool inside my house, I make you leave.
</font>

And you thought you were doing it tough with us? :D

I completely agree with this, and I understand how insulting, not to mention painful, it must be to be accused of having double standards. I still think the moderators have been as reasonable as one could possibly be, and have shown diplomacy, reason and fairness that is almost unreal.
I also fully agree with the comparison of a forum to a house, though I'd like to make a small comment to that:

While this is in a sense Ziroc's private property, it is also dependent on its members. This is such a great place by the grace of the great members in it, not only because it's a great place by itself, regardless of its members. I know that Ziroc and the moderators acknowledge this, but I wouldn't want newbies to be frightened by any of the quotes above. So in a way this is different than owning a house, because even more than a good host will keep his guests comfortable, it is in Ziroc's own interest to keep his guests comfortable. And that, IMO, he does.

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Mouse:
I have no idea of what lead to any recent bannings - nor do I need to. Sometimes I wonder why Z keeps this place going when he gets flak over his decisions.

For those that are interested, here is a fairly good statement of what private forums are all about and the relationship between forum owners and forum members. I don't claim that it exactly sums up Ziroc's attitude, but have a read and ponder on it before hassling him.<hr></blockquote>

I REALLY like those rules, I am actually going to use some of them--reworked a bit, but WOW.. very good rules.. Some I even didn't think of!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Donut:


AzureWolf has been suspended and I believe that Link has been banned indefinitely.<hr></blockquote>

Azure is now un-suspended for doing something very nice on his forum, and I thank him! Welcome back Azure'ster! :D

And thanks man!

YEAH, thank you Ziroc. Wait till the rest of the guys in HADB hear about this!

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Ziroc:


Azure is now un-suspended for doing something very nice on his forum, and I thank him! Welcome back Azure'ster! :D

And thanks man!<hr></blockquote>

Azure, that was a very mature thing you did, mate. Thank you. [img]smile.gif[/img]

If you have an issue with the way I handle things in future, btw - PM me or email me, for Godsake! We know each other well enough, don't we? ;)

<H1> <font color="plum"> WELCOME BACK AZUREWOLF!!! [img]graemlins/1partyguy.gif[/img] </H1> </font>

Cloudy

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Larry_OHF:
<font color="skyblue">
I am a Moderator, and I have NO IDEA what is going on, nor who has been banned or suspended! Can you beleive that? :D
I used to think that if one moderator had a problem...they all communicated back and forth. I also used to think that Ziroc sent all mods a weekly report of things.(don't ask why I thought this...)...</font><hr></blockquote>

Larry, I had a feeling that you'd think that. ;) I thought the same thing when I signed up for it - well, maybe not the weekly report thing. :D

We're all expected to act independently and use our judgment, and to support each other (and each other's judgment). Please don't let this stop you from sending someone else (Ziroc, Saz, myself, etc) an email or PM if you need a sounding board - God knows I've done it to Ziroc and Saz enough times! We're always learning. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:
We're always learning. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>
Spoken like a true sage. When you stop learning you stop living. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<blockquote>quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Memnoch:


Larry, I had a feeling that you'd think that. ;) I thought the same thing when I signed up for it - well, maybe not the weekly report thing. :D

We're all expected to act independently and use our judgment, and to support each other (and each other's judgment). Please don't let this stop you from sending someone else (Ziroc, Saz, myself, etc) an email or PM if you need a sounding board - God knows I've done it to Ziroc and Saz enough times! We're always learning. [img]smile.gif[/img] <hr></blockquote>


:D :D :D

Yup, what he said, Larry!


Cloudbringer