i have a unique problem for all of you...

who would you choose or how will you decide?

problem A.

a certain guy named "A" asked helped from "B" about a certain subject matter or something. "B" said that he was busy and could not help "A". Because of that, "A" got mad at "B" and telling him that he/she is a selfish person since he/she would not like to help "A". "B" responded in kind that "A" is the one selfish and not considerate of other peoples feelings or schedule... now i ask you "Who is selfish among them?"

Problem B

a beggar approaches you and ask for money? will you give the money, knowing that you are just encouraging him/her to beg again to other people or will you not give money that may force the beggar to commit a crime in order to survive? (i know that there is alternative ways like giving the beggar food or bringing him or her to a shelter station for help, but if you only had those two choices, which would you choose among them??)

i am giving these questions knowing that i will encounter similar events like these i wish to be somewhat prepared for this kinds of problems. share your wisdom or comments on these matter folks... thanks http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

(Well, I would say that they are BOTH selfish, "B" could have taken a bit of time out of his busy schedule to help "A", one is rarely so busy that one has absolutely NO time left to do anything else, "A" should have been considerate of "B"'s business, it might have been something REALLY important that couldn't wait a moment longer and maybe "A" could wait until "B" was done, or maybe he could find person "C" and ask him/her for help.)


(If I had the money I would give the beggar some, even though it might encourage him/her to beg more, at least him/her is not stealing or starving.)



------------------
Worshipper of Tiax.
Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.
Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy
General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department in the IW Peacekeeping Force.
ORT member, Official Demander of Stuff.

"If Silence is golden, why does everyone talk so much?"

first of all, everyone IS accountable for his/her own problems. this is truth, not an opinion.

that said, for problem A
help is NOT granted. even among friends. Since A is accountable for his/her own problems, he/she should be grateful that if anyone helps him/her. B told A he is busy, so A should not continuing bugging B

for problem B
the begger is accountable for his own problem, which led him to where he is now. you are not responsible for his situation, therefore, you are not required to give him any money. If he goes committe a crime, it is not anything but BY HIS OWN CHOICE. no money for him

thanks Neb and 250

250,
you do have an interesting answer however (in prob. B), some if not MOST of the beggars are born poor and dont have the ways and means to climb the social ladder of society (sad but true http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif ). it is not their choice whether or not to be born poor and the governement (well in my country anyway) does not give excellent or even adequete solution to this problem. if an adult is still begging, that is understandable since they still have a choice about that, but what about a child? im walking and commuting everyday to school and i always see at least THREE children who are begging for money. do these children have a choice in the cold urban city world? (sorry for not including this on the original problem, beggar is a general kind of word that fits all people, age and race)

Neb,
you know (in prob A), i never though of bringing in a "C" person http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif. thats a good one... but if giving a choice that needs to let you choose between "A" and "B" who would you choose?

------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

you do not have control over family, station, health state, race when you were born.

is it fair? no

are you acountable for your life? yes

I am not here to argue with you about how unfair fate is
only to point out: you are on your own

how well you live right now is the result 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. if you choose not to deal with problems, they accumulate, and you end up in poverty, divorce, bankrupcy, mental break down, being abused, sick, ill, and worse, dead

I've seen many of those who are born disabled, and they acheived so much more than most "normal" people I knew of. so what does that say to you? you ARE accountable. the way of your life is the result of YOUR choice.

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 10-06-2001).]

If I have to choose ONE of them, and only ONE, then I think I would have to choose person "A", he/she should maybe be a bit more patient, perhaps he/she could ask "B" to help him/her AFTER "B" had finished doing whatever it was he/she was doing.


------------------
Worshipper of Tiax.
Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.
Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy
General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department in the IW Peacekeeping Force.
ORT member, Official Demander of Stuff.

"If Silence is golden, why does everyone talk so much?"

Couldn't have said it better!
250, everybody is accountable for their own problems? Boy, am I glad you're one of the few who think that, otherwise this world would be a horrible place.

I thought Neb's post was very wellwritten and I agree with it for the most part. Harkoliar, that was a good comment you made about beggars. Where I live, almost all beggars are drug/drink abusers who ended up on the street as adults. I never give them money because they'd only spend it on drugs and I think I could use it better. In this, I don't agree with Neb, as I will never give such people money. However, I have brought one beggar that we knew a little bit a warm plate of food on a few occasions, and in this my opinion differs from 250's - I think they certainly deserve help, and I'm all for the beggar shelters we have in Amsterdam (where they can get a cup of coffee, a meal and a place to sleep). Such a darwinist view of leaving the weak to their own devices is despicable to me.
Anyway, the distinction was well made, because I can certainly imagine giving money to the kind of beggars you are talking about. This would be different for every country/culture.

------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

have you thought why they are in the state they are?
why did you offer help to them?
what made you offer help to these people, and not the drunks?

let me ASSUME that those you helped are "nice" and "poor" correct?
so why are they poor? have you ever asked? what made them the way they are?
If you search carefully, they are accountable for their situation, without single exception, yes, everyone of them is.

after all:
he chose where to be
he chose how to act
he chose what stock to pick
he chose what job to do
he chose whom to marry
he chose what to concentrate on
he chose what t believe
he chose when to go along
he chose when to resist
he chose whom to trust
he chose what bank to put in his money
he chose to help that person
he chose to avoid
he chose to what to say about:
Self
Others
Risks
Needs
Rights

look carefully, everyone IS responsible for his live and the way he is

<QUOTE> Originally posted by 250
you do not have control over family, station, health state, race when you were born.
is it fair? no

are you acountable for your life? yes

I am not here to argue with you about how unfair fate is
only to point out: you are on your own

how well you live right now is the result 5 or 10 or 20 years ago. if you choose not to deal with problems, they accumulate, and you end up in poverty, divorce, bankrupcy, mental break down, being abused, sick, ill, and worse, dead

I've seen many of those who are born disabled, and they acheived so much more than most "normal" people I knew of. so what does that say to you? you ARE accountable. the way of your life is the result of YOUR choice.

</QUOTE>

as much as i hate to disagree with you, you are right to say on what you have said 250.

<QUOTE> Originaly posted by Neb
If I have to choose ONE of them, and only ONE, then I think I would have to choose person "A", he/she should maybe be a bit more patient, perhaps he/she could ask "B" to help him/her AFTER "B" had finished doing whatever it was he/she was doing.
</QUOTE>

methinks that is the right one to say although some may think otherwise http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif. each person has his/her own opinion. thanks for you 2c

<QUOTE> Originaly posted by Melusine
I never give them money because they'd only spend it on drugs and I think I could use it better. In this, I don't agree with Neb, as I will never give such people money. However, I have brought one beggar that we knew a little bit a warm plate of food on a few occasions, and in this my opinion differs from 250's - I think they certainly deserve help, and I'm all for the beggar shelters we have in Amsterdam (where they can get a cup of coffee, a meal and a place to sleep). Such a darwinist view of leaving the weak to their own devices is despicable to me.
</QUOTE>

ah! the darwin's principle "the strong shall live and the weak shall die", "the mighty will always rule over the weak", such is power ethics. but i ask you now Melusine, IF money is the only option, what would you do? i have suffered in my conscience because of what i see in the "cold, real world". being kinda sheltered then seeing this kind of poverty, it truly makes me sad to see this kind of things happening around me.



------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

First of all I NEVER said I would only help those who are "nice" and "poor" http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/rolleyes.gif I said I wouldn't give money to drug abusers, not that I wouldn't help them AT ALL! The man I brought food (he passed away last winter) was an alcoholist, so I'd never give him money, but he did really appreciate the food. Around Christmas we brought him some home-made cake, and it sure meant a lot to him. I was just stating that I would rather help by other means than financial ones, but I certainly believe in helping those who need it.


Stop generalising!! You know what happened the last time you did that...you ended up hurting people. What about people who are born in squalor and poverty, who never got a chance to get an education? What about people with mental diseases? What about people who suffer from illnesses. Frankly, the way you phrased it here (and I can just hope you meant it differently), your judgemental rigidity sickens me.


------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

EEEEP!!!! The bird lord gives Mel a really big cuddle

I won't answer to A or B because they are unrealistic and there are ALWAYS other choices. Those kinds of questions infuriated me in Ultima 7, they still do now

Not everybody can help their own situation. Yes, it's their choice to commit a crime, but they may be driven to it




------------------
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Ironworks Dark General
BG2 Tavern Keeper
King of Pointlessness

Not everything can be controlled 250, is it a poor man's fault if a hurricane destroyed his house and the place where he worked thereby making him homeless and without a job?

------------------
Worshipper of Tiax.
Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.
Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy
General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department in the IW Peacekeeping Force.
ORT member, Official Demander of Stuff.

"If Silence is golden, why does everyone talk so much?"

see, alcoholic, he CHOSE to drink, he CHOSE to avoid getting help, he CHOSE to be weak and not giving up his source of pain. pain, but willing accepted

am I generalizing? well, I am not. this is HARD truth. who did I hurt? about those who are BORN ill, sick, I already gave you my side of arguement, you can choose to ignore it. I dont care

also, "being hurt" is another choice. whoever is hurt by my thread, can continuely telling him/her self that I am not speaking the truth, I lied. and keep feeling hurt.

you view the world through a glass, which was your experiences from the past. if you don't reacat truthfully to that glass, you never realize it IS there. and you continue to world in that strange view and feel hurt... ah, what am I saying? how many people understand this? if no one, I will rephrase it and give a better arguement, http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

anyway, you are create your own experience

dang quote UBB thingie is not working for me http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

i dont mind a debate among you guys, i just want to make sure that it doesnt go into a full-rage debating match, so lets just keep it "civilized" or "polite" PLEASE?

i was about to reply similar to Melusine (but she beat me to it http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif). another thought comes to me is "people who chose the wrong friends, whom they trusted, was betrayed and ending up in poverty, is it thier fault to choose whom they trusted? a good intention turned sour? was it thier responsible not noticing it further? i think this is similar to Melusine's post. sigh... life is so complex... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif



------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

You're right, of course.
Harkoliar, you asked about what if my ONLY choices were giving money or giving nothing, but like LS said, there are always more options and I agree with him that these theoretical questions are hardly answerable if you can't improvise a little. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Oh, and ~cuddles back~ http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif



------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

I agree on both counts: let's keep it civil and yes you are saying about the same thing as I was saying.

250 that last post of yours just doesn't make any sense to me.



------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

DO NOT play the "what if" game, people. if you want to play, then play it to the end.

this person can choose to react to the accident in a CONSTRUCTIVE way, rather than feeling sorry and pitiful for himself

if you happen to lose your child in a car accident by drunk driver. I am going to tell you, it is a bad thing, it is HORRIBLE.
but even in this situation, there are examples to create value from disaster
Mothers Against Drunk Drivers (MADD) is a wonderful organization and a perfect example of how parents who have suffered the loss of injury of a child at the hands of an irresponsible element of scoiety have chosen, through social action, to create meaning out of that suffering.

I am not saying "their child's death worth" I am just saying that reaction was a CHOICE

what more examples can you give? who would stand up and say "My life is not the result of my choices" ?

and people, for one last time, if you want to play the "what if" game, play it till the end

who did I hurt?
I simply slammed truth on thme

Which, as I said, is a pointless exercise if you're only given very limited choices

If it was simply a case of "what would you do" rather than the "select A or B" rubbish, I would respond with:

A) Neither - both are stressed and not feeling themselves. Makes them react badly

B) I don't need to give to people on the street as I already donate monthly from my salary (G.A.Y.E scheme) and I barely make my own outgoings



------------------
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Ironworks Dark General
BG2 Tavern Keeper
King of Pointlessness

You know, you sound to me as someone who maybe hasn't had enough experience in life to make these kinds of judgements, in other words: naive. Try to see things from a different viewpoint for once. How can you talk about a mother losing a child as if you have the slightest clue what that means?



I didn't say you hurt anybody, where did you read that? I said you made no sense to me, which you didn't.


------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

<QUOTE>

Originally posted by 250

DO NOT play the "what if" game, people. if you want to play, then play it to the end.

</QUOTE>

im trying to keep an open mind to this debate 250 but could you explain further? i cant seem to grasp your concept of thinking regarding this matter http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif


------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

they chose who to trust (and there is always more than the words: they are too weak to be alone, too frighted to face the truth, too naive, too blind trusting, too greedy, too ...)

good intention turned to sour? "the smallest good deed is better than the grandst itention."

never measure something by intention. if it worked, then it is good. if it doesnt work, thn change it

a cop won't care if you meant to drive under speed limit.
a parent wont care if you meant to slow down at school district
your client wont care if you meant to sell that stock
your girlfriend's father wont care if you meant to be careful last night
.
.
.

What do you mean, "play it to the end"? If that guy lost his house, his family and his job because of a disaster, what can he do? He dosen't really have much of a chance unless he uses his last 5$ to buy a lottery ticket and wins the big prize.



------------------
Worshipper of Tiax.
Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.
Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy
General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department in the IW Peacekeeping Force.
ORT member, Official Demander of Stuff.

"If Silence is golden, why does everyone talk so much?"

that means making assumptions such as "what if there is a guy who..."
or "what if something happened..." or "what if I was diagnosed as cancer..."

I think Neb's scenario says it pretty much.

Okay, what choices does this guy have?

Suicide?
Crime?
Detitute?

Lovely, aren't they? <--- sarcastic tone for this bit




------------------
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Ironworks Dark General
BG2 Tavern Keeper
King of Pointlessness

I think I am going to leave this discussion, I can FEEL that it is going to end up with someone getting mad at someone else for an intentional or unintentional flame/insult, I'd rather avoid that.

------------------
Worshipper of Tiax.
Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.
Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy
General of the highest class and Leader of the Legal Department in the IW Peacekeeping Force.
ORT member, Official Demander of Stuff.

"If Silence is golden, why does everyone talk so much?"

Don't worry - I know 250 and I will probably never agree but that doesn't mean I don't respect his right to voice his opinion http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif



------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

there are many people who had vrtually no money and became sucessful

look at KFC's owner Col. Sanders, he went on his sales at age of 60, and he tried 1008 times before he eventually convinced someone to use his formula, what do you say about this? there is always chance

and this poor guy can rely on his friends for comfort, during time of crisis
or, he can choose to end his misery right there, then again, it is his choice

choice, choice, always choice

I'd probally kill myself if I am in his shoes, but I will be totally concious that I died by my own chocie

I HOPE that nothing is going to happen, but I just have a FEELING that something will.

hey 250!!
while i respect your point of view, i FIRMLY believe that not everything can be controlled, a classic example... a newborn baby died because of SID syndrom? (is that the one? wherein a baby just dies instantaniously for no reason of all?? or was it down syndrome? i cant seem to remember the exact word) im nearly 100% sure the mother didnt want her baby to die and took care of her child during pregnancy, i ask you if any of them was responsible? neither wished the baby want to die yet it happened.

if you mean by to the end? so you mean that you must look at the finality of the person in a given situation?

------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

there wont be any flames, because you just cannot get any from me http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

those who angers you, conqers you

<QUOTE>

Originally posted by Neb
I HOPE that nothing is going to happen, but I just have a FEELING that something will.

</QUOTE>

dont worry NEB, im sure that all of us here debating right now is 100% mature enough not to get mad ( i hope) over a debate argument and not go whacky over it.

------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! FLAME FLAME FLAME

...or maybe not

for most of the examples 250 has given, it could be seen as their choice, but I don't think this can be true of EVERY circumstance



------------------
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Ironworks Dark General
BG2 Tavern Keeper
King of Pointlessness

what does it mean to that baby? nothing
it is not fair, it is no one's fault, no one's responsbile

so what does that has to do with our topic?
ahhh, i see, you are trying to prove "not everything is controlable"

we cannot ignore the EFFECT and what experiences an incident cause to people when we talk about incident

that baby died, so this incident means virtually nothing to him

then we need to discuss what impact the child's death has? well... shall we continue?

or you wanna give a different example?

not everything is controllable, but what impact it has on everyone of us CAN be controlled

you view the world through the colored glass of your experience. if that glass is suspcious, then the world is a dangerous place. if that glass is naive, then the world is a trusting place. if that glass is impatience, then the world is a frustrating place. if that glass is anger, then the world is a hurtful place

<quote>
origianlly posted by 250

there are many people who had vrtually no money and became sucessful

</quote>

i have to comment that while there is indeed many people who had no money and became successful, there are MORE people who were not successful and became more miserable than before... (ill not name names, because i suck at remembering names)

------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

what I am saying is:

events only affect your feelings
your feelings in turn change your personality, your view of the world
which leads to changes in decision making in the future
which affect your way of life (fate)

your way of life is who you are

you can choose what kind of feelings from each single moment of your life, that means you choose to be who you are

hacker rule number 1:
if someone can do it, I can do it

So what you're saying is that if people REALLY tried, all negative emotions can be ignored/dealt with, and that if they can't make that work, it is essentially a failure on their part, a lack of strength of will? Or am I misunderstanding?



------------------
Melusine, Sultry Elflet,
High Queen of Fluffies,
Archbabe of the OHF,
LH, HADB and ORT!
http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/mel1.gif
Your voice is ambrosia
Amy Brown Fantasy Art

and don't forget that "who YOU are" depends entirely on your upbringing/social life/background

If that was hell, then the choice is hardly a choice? how can a child just shrug off abuse for instance?

------------------
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Ironworks Dark General
BG2 Tavern Keeper
King of Pointlessness

no emotions should be IGNORED!!! ESPECIALLY HURTFUL ONES!
goddamnit, I firsthandy eye witnessed what that kind behavior does to a person, and that hurts me too!!

if you don't deal with them, they eat you away. either bite by bite, all crush you in one single punch.

if people cannot face their own failures, weakness, hurtful feelings, it only mean one of the two things:
1. they are not ready to face it yet (either to acknowledge them, or to realzie they actually exist)
2. they are too comfortable and familiar with the old pain to recognize the new (and true) ones