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Just thought I would make that clear, since there seems to be a good deal of misunderstanding about that from some of the recent debates here on what actions should be taken in response to the WTC destruction.
Liliara even implied that I and some others arguing against the War approach in this case, at this time, would sit by and watch our own children be slaughtered before our eyes by bloodthirsty criminals, even if we could stop it by the use of force. Well, to make it clear, Liliara and others who have mistakenly concluded that is my position . . . I am not against violence at all as a means of protecting innocent life. I believe in the right of self-defense, and to own a gun if one desires for that purpose. I believe in the death penalty. I believe a person has every right to absolutely beat the livin' hell out of an aggressor, and to kill him if necessary, to defend the his own life, or the life of his family, or the life of a complete stranger. This IS our law in this land. I believe it is effective and just. I support the principles behind it in every way. Liliara, to satisfy your apparent belief that to be a Real American Man one has to be ready and able to use macho killing for the Cause, let me just say that to save the life of my children, or other innocents, I would be vicious and ruthless and unmerciful. Though I have never had too, I can and would kill someone who would dare threaten innocent children like that. I can and would kill to protect the life of an innocent stranger, of whatever nationality, race, creed, or religion. In my opinon, the people that would deserve killing in such situations have forfeited their right to life. By their own actions they have renounced allegiance to the mutual understanding in society with other people that such things are not to be done. You misunderstand what I am saying totally if you think that my opposition to treating this like a War with Afghanistan or a large part of Afghanistan comes from Pacifistic views or feelings. Just wanted to clear that up http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif |
Wow...Awesome post Dio!
Hey...is the sky turning green? This is the third or fourth time I have agreed with you lately. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif |
I respect your opinion
and i disagree ------------------ http://potgrond.netfirms.com/Eyes.jpg I'm Watching you... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif |
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Hmmm . . . so far its working http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif |
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LOL. Disagree about what, Rikard? Seriously, I respect your opinion as well. I have no clue as to what you meant by that. |
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Goodnight! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Ascended Mistress of Illumination |
I would like to state that I as a pacifist, accept Dio's staement that he is not a pacifist.
My non-violent veiws are rooted in my spiritual heritage, one that also teachs acceptance that not everyone will be a pacifist, or will want to be one, largely because of the basic reasons Dio stated on why that he is not one. My best friend has very similar views you do, Dio. I think its important to understand each other, even if our views seem to conflict. Also if I personally saw a child, or someone weak being attacked violently, I would not stand by and do nothing. In one situation I suffered a severe beating, while a female African American friend of mine ran for her life from some stupid racist skinheads. They had knocked her down and were kicking her outside a concert, so I jumped on ones back and bit his ear as hard as I could. Fortunatly after they had broke three ribs and cracked my skull, some not so pacifistic friends of mine saved my life. Its paradoxical I know, but my conscience rules my behavior on a daily basis, not any certain abstract philosphy. If I hadn't intervened, and my friend had been beaten, I would not advocate violent revenge, but I would advocate justice. The heat of the moment can make even a pacifist react in a less than peaceful way. |
I'm not a pacifist either!
I disagree about keeping guns, though. And I think diplomacy and negotiation are the most valuable tools we have. We NEED to take care to prevent more innocent deaths....... But the perpetrators of violent crimes, be they terrorists or not, should be found and dealt with according to justice. ------------------ http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif |
If you accept violence as a way of protecting innocent lives, then how could you view a US attack on bin Laden as wrong?
Take a step back and view this not as revenge, but as prevention, then an anology of protecting innocents with violence is acceptable is it not? The problem that is encountered is how do you justify the potential deaths of innocents now by our attack, against the potential deaths of innocents later by more terrorist attacks? It is a very difficult decesion to be made. I know that snipers (either military or police) are trained to wait to eliminate a target until their is little or no threat to innocents, but I know that they are also trained, that when a sitution does not improve, to take out a threat, even if it may harm/kill an innocent, b/c by doing so they are inevitably saving more lives. Like I said, a very difficult question! ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas! |
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When did I ever say that an attack on Bin Laden was wrong? I am totally in favor of using force against Bin Laden. He is a criminal who should be dealt justice. The application of Justice by governments and law inherently involves the use of force, and deadly force if necessary. I understand that very well. I have personal experience of it. Hell, i represent the state in the application of said law backed up by guns and chains and iron bars. Yes, attack Bin Laden, as the Criminal he is. I agree totally. I don't make any attempt to rationalize the deaths of innocents, Moridin. I don't think we have to. I think it is far more important to avoid it in the first place. |
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------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas! |
D
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The trick here is to try not to take innocent life ourselves. I do know that a much smaller force, perhaps commandos working with the aid of the northern alliance or other internal help, working to pin point Bin Laden's person, would carry a great deal less risk to innocents than the prospect of attacks from all those warplanes we are flying over there. One single sniper could take him out. And it would not cause the mass terrified evacuations over there, that our looming armada has caused, with all its accompanying misery. (and the next person who says the conditions were already bad over there will be slapped by a large trout -- i know that) There are many ways to kill innocents, indirectly as well as directly. |
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Cheers Dio, I think we agree and disagree! ------------------ http://www.bestanimations.com/fantas.../dragon-04.gif Never try to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and it annoys the pig I've got to admit it's getting better, it's getting better all the time Bossman of Better Funny Stuff.....of the Laughing Hyenas! |
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------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif |
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------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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I think it's cruel and non-solving ------------------ I am Rikard T'Aranaxz Almighty (shared) Leader of the OHF Proud member of the Ancients Club The one True Necromancer/Blade of the Laughing Hyena's Last of the Ancient race known as the Red Fluffies Summoner of Bunnies "You can Run, You can Hide, But you can never do both" http://potgrond.netfirms.com/Eyes.jpg I'm Watching you... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif |
Sorry if I appear to be intruding, but this topic is very engrossing and I just wanted to ask if it is really so wrong to kill in self-defence.
Each time I watch a movie that has aggressors stalking their prey, I keep wondering if I would have my wits about to survive such an encounter. Under any survival-of-the-fittest situation, I would have thought it perfectly natural to fight for one's life (or the life of a beloved). |
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Seriously, Dio, I went past this a day or so ago and had to come back, the title intrigued me. I'm not a violent person by nature or desire, but I too, think that to save another life, or my own, I could be. Thank God I've never had to test that,though. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan CloudDragon of the OHF Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
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Cloudy ------------------ http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/bestow1.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan CloudDragon of the OHF Storm-Queen Raven's Cloud StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever "To sleep, perchance to dream..." |
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I would never seek to hurt or kill an agressor, but if it happened as a result of a struggle for self-preservation or to save someone else, I don't think I'd feel too guilty about it. I wouldn't be happy about it, but I wouldn't berate myself for it either. ------------------ http://sc.communities.msn.com/tn/02/...sSite/2/4a.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif The day we stop learning is the day we start dying!(c) Owner/operator of the Evil Petting Zoo and devout member of the HADB clan. Commander of the Dragon Fleet, IW Peacekeeping Force Honored to be a member of the Illuminati - may the Light shine forever! Mage extraordinair. Occasional minion to Gwhanos the Fluffy Hopeless Romantic *sigh* "Allright! We'll call it a draw." |
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Fighting for ones life is not the same as fighting to end anothers. ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
I must say Dio I have difficulty in weighing up the logic of your arguments.
The principle of not taking innocent life is, of course a noble one and we can say with some degree out conviction that our respective governments share it. I do not, however, believe that it is unavoidable. The idea of using a small group of special forces to track and assassinate Bin Laden is a little fanciful. Despite the best efforts in the world such groups would rely on intelligence reports in a detail we could not hope to gain. The gulf war and experiences of the SAS members who were captured highlight this admirably (e.g. Bravo Two Zero). I have just finished reading the "Memoirs of a Geisha", a Japanese woman who was alive during the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The book was in no way focused on these events but it was interesting to read the tale of a culture who we considered to be a mortal enemy. In the decades since the war much debate has been made on whether or not to use the A bomb was justified. which ever side you might think 2 things were true. 1. The loss of US life in an invasion would have been tremendous. 2. No realistic settlement could have been made diplomatically. I am in no way making a direct comparison but the decision was made, hundreds of thousands of civilian casulties ensued and American lives were saved. I was devastated at the attack on the World Trade Centre. In Bin Laden I see a man who does not discriminate between military and civilian targets and who would cheerfully deploy any weapon that was available to him. At some point a decision will be made relating to the scale of attack made against him and I for one believe the consequences of failure to be high. We can't fight with one arm tied behind our back. The situation in Afghanistan is vastly different to the one faced during WW2 but I hope the decision that is made concerns itself first and foremost with the protection of the lives of the US & Allies troops. |
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BTW who's going to beat SC this weekend? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif </font> ------------------ Sir Taliesin http://www.dabros.com/images/sigs/giant.gif If they take my gun can I still use my Axe? |
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Sir T.<font color=crimson> BAMA </font> ------------------ http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800 High powered rifle with scope $1000 Hotel room with roof access $100 A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS! |
Just some quick thoughts as I'm still on holidays here in Australia's Top End http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif and so have not kept up with the threads but I just thought I would make a couple of comments. People seem to be confusing a reluctance to indulge in immediate military action with pacifism? I didn't think they were the same thing. Use whatever tools are required to deliver to justice (dead or alive) those proven to be responsible for those slain in the attacks on WTC - surgical strikes, commando raids, diplomatic pressure, bombing raids, etc. if they are deemed to add value to the ultimate goal and will minimize collateral damage - but let's be smart about what we do, and who we do it to.
Speaking of collateral damage -don't you love that term? So dehumanizing, like talking about sprites on a computer screen. Let's pretend that we have a relative working in Kabul who might be at risk of being "collaterally damaged" (like I did in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War) and see if we are still able to throw that term around in such a cavalier fashion. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif I think some of the issues we need to look at are: - the SHORT-TERM solution - bringing the perpetrators to justice and destroying/emasculating the network of organizations/nations which train/supply/fund these terrorists). This is easier because we have a clear moral purpose, which is to deliver justice to those who lost their lives on September 11 and to eradicate terrorism - NOT to assuage the injured pride of a superpower (the HOW DARE THEY! syndrome). http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif - as well as a LONG-TERM solution - looking at the causal factors which have facilitated such inflamed passions, beliefs and hatreds (misguided though they may be) which can cause fellow human beings to overcome the most basic human instinct of self-preservation and sacrifice themselves for a cause that they BELIEVE is right. We need to be careful that we don't get caught up in an unwinnable tit-for-tat conflict like the Israelis and Palestinians - they blow up a couple of buildings, we kill a major terrorist leader, they retaliate by blowing up a US Embassy, we retaliate by bombing Kabul, and so on. More importantly, we all need to think of what ways can America and the rest of the civilized world influence some of the factors that are driving these feelings of hatred towards Americans/Westerners and ask ourselves if a) we want to do anything about it; and b) if so, what can/will we do about it. Some of these factors, such as the way groups like the Taliban use the hopeless situation for many Muslims in the middle east as fuel for their extremist, militant, destructive view of Islam, may unfortunately prove beyond the scope of the West to influence. Is it in the collective best interests of Western nations to try and leverage some of the more moderate Islamic nations to mediate, or do we just say stuff it! and nuke all the bastards? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/noncgi/smiles/eek.gif Nobody said that finding a solution to the long-term problem would be easy. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif Sorry, but my time at this internet cafe is just about up, I hope I've given you guys some food for thought. Sweet water and light laughter till next, I'll be back soon for soft songs and bright wine. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif ------------------ http://www.angelfire.com/anime2/memnoch/memnochsig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif [This message has been edited by Memnoch (edited 09-28-2001).] |
A lucid summary of the situation, Memnoch. Good post.
[This message has been edited by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown (edited 09-28-2001).] |
BTW...Just for the record, since Dio brought it up. I'm one of those gun toting rednecks. I have a conceal and carry permit, I practice regularly at the local shooting range(see below) and own several weapons besides guns. I have studied martial arts since I was a young teen and have been in a few scraps, all barehanded, and none fatal.
Heck...given the chance, I'd love to take the shot at that sonofabitch(Bin Laden) myself. Course, I'm fat and slow. But, someone at my gun club came up with an ingenious idea. He found a picture, blew it up, ptinted it out and made a bunch of copies. Then he took it down to the club and started blowing holes in it. Some of us joined in. The club got a copy, made a few thousand and started selling them five bucks a pop. They've made several thousand dollars so far. Its all going straight to the 9-11 fund. So John D...if you need some target practice for that sniper rifle, just let me know. I still have a dozen of so. Love the sig. Memnoch...Awesome post!!! ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif |
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Brilliant post, Memnoch. You have summarised the attitude of many of us very well indeed. An interesting point was mentioned on UK radio this morning: that ONE of the major fears of SOME Islamic countries is that Western values will have a bad effect on the status of their women, and that is one reason they fear and hate our culture. My comment on this: I think all patriarchal cultures are afraid of women 'breaking free' and claiming equality of rights; it upsets what they consider the 'natural superiority' of the male. Such change would turn their cultures upside down - it is no wonder they don't want it to happen. They are afraid of our equal rights culture and thus it is one factor in their hatred of us - maybe a major factor? ------------------ http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/bitchingcopy.gif http://www.ranchoweb.com/images/bg2guy/fljotsdale.gif Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes. |
First, I must state up-front that I am not nor will I attempt to be objective about this. Though, I am not a violent person, and abhor violence as the answer or solution in any given situation, violence is a part of our lives. I would dare to go so far as to say that if we look, we, ourselves personally, or someone we know has had violence intrude upon their lives.
I think pacifism is an admirable philosophy but basically unworkable. I, myself, have experienced violence in a personal sense. (Victim of two violent crimes.) First, I wish I had had the ability and means to protect myself. Secondly, I admit to wanting the perpetrators of these crimes to suffer in the same way I have. I just want it clear that I am not nor will attempt to be objective on this subject. As terrible as it may be, I believe that sometimes you have to take lives to save lives. I know that this appears to be a contradiction in terms; however, I think one has to consider the overall picture. I believe that to know to "do good" and not do it, is as bad as committing a bad act to begin with. I remember (vaguely so if anyone knows the details please help me here)a case where a woman was raped and murdered in front of many witnesses. No one intervened on her behalf. I believe these people have her blood on their hands as much as the man who committed the crime. I believe that violence, even justifiable violence, is always the path of last resort for right-thinking people. But to do nothing to stop evil and destruction, is to become a passive collaborator. I do agree that those who should be vilified are those who bring about the circumstances that require people to take such action. The responsibility I believe rests with them and them alone. There is no easy answer or ideal solution. I do not want to cast aspersions on anyone, but I truly believe that having been in violent situations does color one's point of view, essentially making it very difficult to continue to hold to a completely pacifistic point of view. ------------------ Order of the Holy Flame Member of Clan HADB Laughing Hyena Clan Illuminati http://publish.hometown.aol.com/tobb...ages/reeka.jpg |
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------------------ http://faceweb-004.facelink.com/edit...72/4711972.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif Kazara Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) |
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Also, I believe that bombing the s*** out of Afghanistan or any other country will create many more problems then sending in commandos/snipers/special forces... Yes, some of those elite soldiers will die in the process. That's the way it is. If you think that bombing a country to save the live of 100-200 soldiers is justifiable, let me just ask you if you would rather deal with a terrorist network of about 10-20,000 (fictitious number) or a terrorist group of 10-500 millions. Your call. Finally, just a side note: the situation in Japan in WWII was different than what we have here. In Japan, the entire country (children, elderly, women, men, soldiers, elites, workers, government...) viewed the Allies as the Ennemy. In Afghanistan (and other countries) you are talking about possible supportive government and extremists that consider us the ennemy. That doesn't justify bombing indiscriminantly to save a few lives. Mind you, the cost on lives will actually be much higher on our side if we have to deal with millions of possible terrorists. ------------------ If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I? |
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Awesome Post!!! And, my most sincere condolences for what happened to you. *HUGS* if you want em. ------------------ "In Memorium of those who are gone, and all those that bought our freedom with their hearts blood!" "May the Colors of Liberty never run" http://nachtrafe.7h.com/images/pledge.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif |
Ryanamur - I think there is a large range of options in between "Bombing the sh** out of Afghanistan" and deploying units of special forces. I am not even suggesting a carpet bombing of Afghanistan dwellings or anything close to that.
You say a few hundred troops will die and this is preferrable to bombing a country and enlarging the terrorist network. Firstly, I have a number of friends in the British Army. Some in the Parachute Regiment who seem likely candidates to be involved. In a truly emotional response, yes I value their lives above those who are strangers to be in another country. By the same logic you could conclude that the deaths of those in the tragedy of the World Trade Centre do not justify inciting Fundamentalist ire. How many of our men should die before it becomes "unjustifiable". As to an expansion to the terrorist network. I would say the Taliban and Bin Laden are only a symptom of anti Western sentiment in the Middle East. How many anti Western demonstrations have we witnessed over the years by the people in any number of countries. Just what is a "possible supportive government". When the Taliban first rose to power they were quite popular as they systematically assassinated the various warlords throughout the regions. If the terrorist movement could increase expontentially following a discriminating military campaign in Afghanistan then surely we shouldn't count on any long term support no matter what happens. Yes Japan is a different situation but Britain and Japan became allies in 1905 when the Japanese defeated the Russians. Westerners were certainly not seen as a traditional enemy in that sense. Yes there was support for a war when it was being fought but that was patriotism as much as anything else. |
Scott: I think if any special troops are sent, they should go voluntarily and fully knowing that there is a large chance that they will die.
------------------ http://faceweb-004.facelink.com/edit...72/4711972.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif Kazara Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati Lux omnis est |
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------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Ascended Mistress of Illumination OR Paws R Us |
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------------------ http://faceweb-004.facelink.com/edit...72/4711972.jpg http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif Kazara Sapphire Dragoness of ALSB Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe Guardian of the Temple of Aerie (specialized in GenCon and BG) Most Illustrious Arch-Magess of the Illuminati Lux omnis est |
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As for your friends in the Army, I'm sorry but I also put my name on the dotted line once in the past. I knew and understood the consequences when I did. So did they or they wouldn't have signed in. I don't believe in indiscriminantly killing Arabs, Muslims, Jews or any other by-standers to get to Bin Ladden. It can be done efficiently without getting more Arabs or Muslims against us. I trully believe that it's in our best interest to actually help the people of not only Afghanistan but also other countries that need help rather than simply turning a blind eye with an "you supported him and now you'll die" attitude. I have no problem with the Talibans except that they execute indiscriminatly their citizens. If they believe that music is the word of the Devil, so be it, that's their opinion. I won't tell them what to do or believe in and, in return, I expect them to do the same. But when you're talking about genocide (especially within your own ethinic group), I can't turn a blind eye. The fact that Bin Ladden is in Afghanistan doesn't mean Afghans support him. It means the government does. So what, we're no less Saints. How many did we kill over the Cold War? Does that mean that Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush and other Western leaders should be executed? No it doesn't. And it certainly doesn't mean that all Afghans should pay for this. This going to war thing and full blown deployment of military might is nothing more than a big display to please public demands after the outraceous acts of terrorism that we witness. Ironnic that we are quick to point responsability to Bin Ladden and his groups to only fail to realize that our own inefficiency, lack of professionalism and sentiment of compleciency got us were we are. Ever since the USSR fell we've been hearing about how going from a bi-polar world to a uni-polar world will create instability thereby increasing drastically the risk of terrorists attack on us. What did we do? We kept cutting budgets, cutting personnel, making security more and more lax. Now, we got the wake-up call that experts have been predicting for over 10 years. The funny thing is: those people that made really bad judgement calls are also responsible for what happened. They are still sitting in their nice office, still making recommendations for the elected body of our nations to base their decisions on. We're not going after them and their error in judgement are we? Why, because we're not ready to admit that we also royally screwed up. These and future terrorist acts should not come to a surprise to any of us. Hell, they told us a year, 2 months and again 2 weeks before they attacked that we were going to pay. All we did was send a small warning that no one took seriously. Mark my worlds: Unless we clue in and solve our problems (both at homes and abroad), terrorists will just keep hiting us and we'll just keep going "bad terrorists, we didn't take any real measures to ensure that you wouldn't strike again, why would you strike again, bad, bad, bad terrorist". We didn't clue in yet. Our economy is going to down the drain. So far 125,000 workers in the airline industry have lost their jobs. When the ripple effects will stop, you'll be able to bring that number up by about 10 times. Yet, we didn't do anything to solve this problem. We are so focused on getting Bin Ladden, we didn't even realize that those guys totally destabilized our whole economic system and way of life. Guess what, so far, they've proven themselves to be way wiser and head of the issues than we. I'm sorry I had to be so harsh but I did edit ALOT of it before posting. This is what I've been thinking for over 2 weeks and finally posted it. Fire away, I'm wearing kevlar. ------------------ If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I? [This message has been edited by Ryanamur (edited 09-28-2001).] |
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Hugh ------------------ I am the walrus!.... er, no hang on.... http://www.animfactory.com/animation...ing_lg_clr.gif A fair dinkum laughing Hyena! |
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Your point regarding the economy - yes, and not just America's! All over the world, countries that have committed to liberalisation of trade, who have borrowed money to develop, and who have contracts with America are suffering already. (I edit a business retail site, and the stories that are coming in are full of woe.) Many of these countries have huge debts (which they took out to finance development so they could compete in world markets), and rely on exports to pay them. Where some of them are now is called up shit creek without a paddle, where I come from. (Globalisation of trade = dangerous dependencies, in my view, - as we are now seeing. But that's a whole other topic...) ------------------ http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg Ascended Mistress of Illumination [This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-28-2001).] |
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