This is a serious inquiry as to the thoughts of the people it pertains to.

Thanks to Mel's thread and others, I noticed that most people on here are anti-death penalty due to the immorality of taking a sentient life, that most are anti-violence as in actions that should be taken in the war on terrorists and it appears that most are anti-gun and or hunting.

I personally am Pro Death Penalty and believe that some people need to be put out of societies misery, and I also believe that there is a time and a place where you go in and level the enemy with whatever weapon gets it done with minimum of friendly casulaties.

I do not understand how so many of you who are against violence and carnage can support the existance of games which promote just this kind of thing. Diablo, BG, pretty much any D&D type CRPG revolves around massive destruction of (supposedly) living (and some times undead) beings and not to mention First Person Shooters. I would think that you would prefer games that didn't involve violence. I realize that it is a "fantasy" setting but still violence gloified and used as a way to advance in a fantasy setting would to me be anathama if I were opposed to it in real life.

I hope I get some serious replies and not just flames from certain rather rude persons on here. I am interested in the Psychology of the "gamer" Thanks for your insights and thoughts in advance.

Pax

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-21-2001).]

Dear MagiK,

Just up front, FYI, I am neither pro nor con death penalty or violence as it is; I think the necessity varies from situation to situation. I've always viewed such measures to be like surgery: unpleasant, but sometimes necessary as a last resort when other conventional techniques do not or have not worked.

Now, on CRPG's...Since they're a simulation, I think a lot of people use them to work out aggressions that they would otherwise harbor in RL. Kind of like pounding a pillow or beating on a punching bag. I know that in games, I always try to find the peaceful solution (since I always play "good"; I've never been able to play "evil" for some reason; I've tried, but I always lose heart or interest). However, that doesn't prevent me from drawing the sword and whacking the baddies, if there's no other way.

I believe it's important always to maintain a healthy respect for life. I also believe when others violate that respect for others' life, it's time for a re-evaluation of the position for that particular situation. Life is not black and white, and one solution will not work for all instances, as much as we would like it to because it is easy way out.

I have more to say here, but it's time for me to go teach class. I may post more later on.

Cheers,



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/saz.gif

I personally think we should not kill, because our judgement may not be the right one. and by killing, we take away their right to return to the light

just do what Britan did... when our technology is advanced enough, send them to Mars...

Personally, I hardly play any games, and certainly not the type you describe here! (Although about 10 years ago I was very fond of a game called Astrofire, where you shoot at asteroids and other things that whirl about....)

But I am VERY interested in this idea of 'friendly casulties'. Would that be a casualty who has a smile and a friendly word for his foes, no matter what the circumstances of injury were?

How very intriguing.......



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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

I agree with everything you said. From your stance on the Death Penalty to not being able to play evil parties, I just loose interest. Thank you for the info.

For me being pro-death penalty doesn't mean I want to run around and just execute every shoplifter.



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

britan sends its criminals to Mars?? Umm could I hitch a ride on the ship some time???



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

no, they sent them to America

Friendly Casualties as in non-combatants, people on your own team or neutral parties http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif better?



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

ohhh I thought that was Australia http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif And look how they turned out http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif quite a nice bunch of folks down there http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

Well for me it all depends. The death penalty is needed in some cases, and in other it isnt. Depends on the Crime.

As for the game subject, I agree with you, how can people play a Bhall Spawn, of all things, Born of murder its self, and be agaisnt the death penalty?

I know its a game, but still realaites to personal veiws.

I am very anti-anti hunting. Meaning that I hunt often.

Do any of you know what would happen if you let 2000 calfs run wild? If you did you would not be for anti-hunting/Anti-meat eating and all that otehr anti stuff.

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http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif

So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas
Messenger of the Emerald Dragon

May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity.

What animals are you referring to here? (Think this might be a case of different terminology) In the UK, calves are the progeny of cows and bulls. What does the word calf refer to in the US?


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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

Interesting parallels there, MagiK.
I am all for peaceful and nonviolent resolution of conflict whenever that is possible. The best approach is to try and live your life, or govern your nation, in such a way as to avoid creating conflict in the first place. However, there are situations that cannot be resolved peacefully, and in those cases, it is necessary to determine the desired outcome and prosecute the action with the smallest possible number of total casualties.
I don't see how this relates to the playing of games, however. CRPG's or PNP RPG's are constructs built around puzzle-solving and conflict resolution. These stories are made to have certain elements to be used as plot devices for the resolution of the tale, most often weapons and magic. The choices are nearly infinite, as the consequences have no more reality than the game itself. People often use this an outlet to explore the choices they would not make in their real life, as their are no real consequences.
To equate the actions taken in a fantasy drama setting as being concomitant with the actions taken in real life is to create a false comparison. The moral and ethical questions and their resolutions are created and resolved in two different and separate spheres, although one, the fantasy game world, is contained within the other.
People who are unable to distinguish the difference between fantasy and reality are considered to be un-sane by society. The distinction comes when one tries to impose or enact the rules which govern the fantasy sphere upon the real world. Clearly, this sort of activity can range from benign eccentricity to absolute sociopathy.
Not to insult anyones' intelligence here, but I would like to note that the attributes of a mental construct such as a fantasy world are also applicable to religious beliefs, political beliefs, a social order, or any other mental construct.


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http://sc.communities.msn.com/tn/02/...Site/2/17e.jpg

[This message has been edited by Absynthe (edited 09-21-2001).]

h Leaving aside the 'anti-hunting' for a moment, your point on 'anti-meat eating'.

I take it you are referring to vegetarianism and veganism? I am a vegetarian, which means I do not eat meat or fish. There are lots of reasons why people don't choose to eat meat. Apart from the obvious health and environment reasons, I am motivated by what I know about intensive farming, (a lot!). The way animals are raised and slaughtered in the UK and Europe is, (with some few exceptions), disgusting and barbaric. The poultry industries are probably the best known examples. I haven't studied the US industries specificially, however, the little I do know suggests the situation is similar there.

I don't need to eat meat to live (by the way, I am 100% healthy, and look about 10 years younger than I am) and so I don't eat it. This isn't an attack on people who do eat meat - each to their own, but to dismiss 'anti-meating' as part of 'that other anti-stuff' seems somewhat flip and dismissive to me, so I decided to put in my twopennorth. (PS Vegetarianism is very common in the UK, less so in the US, I believe...)


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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-21-2001).]

My answer is simple.

The death penalty takes a real life

A CRPG is simply changing variable values connected to a sprite

That's the only answer I would need. One is fiction, one is real

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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is pimp.
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Im confused (no big revelation there) Are you saying you don't know that CRPG's while having a story line and some puzzles, actually make the violent destruction of virtual beings the only way to really advance your character? If you have played any of the current crop of CRPG's I think you had to have "virtually" participated in the destruction of many hundreds or even thousands of virtual beings and this in the fantasy setting constitutes violence. Or do you pose that virtual violence is not violence at all?



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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

You missed the point of the question. How can you be anti-violence and yet revel in its virtual glorification in a recreational game? Are you not promoting in some fashion that which you stand against? This is a question about concepts and consistant messages. Not a debate of real vs fantasy.

But thanks for the input any way http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-21-2001).]

Well, I would prefer it if people could be rehabilitated, but sometimes some people are just too much of a danger to others so that it is necessary for their lives to be ended for the protection of others, what would be most humane, to let them rot away in a prison cell for the rest of their lives or to end it quickly?

As for CRPGs, well, any violence there is not real and it is a good way to get rid of some aggressions, I have the same thing as Saz, I can never play Evil, even if I manage to start out Evil I cannot resist the lure of Good and usually change somewhere about halfway through the game, strange really, since it's just a game.

As for the necessity of violence, let us take the current example of Osama Bin Laden, either we leave him alone and the continues to kill innocents or we either capture him or kill him, either way would require violence since he probably has quite a large amount of fanatical guards, I say that an attempt should be made to PEACEFULLY end his killing of innocents, but if it is unsuccesfull then I see it as necessary to end his life to protect others.

Those are my points of view, others may agree or disagree with them as they please.

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Worshipper of Tiax.

Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.

Member of the HADB clan.

http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg

http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/hero.gif

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy

Thanks for the input Neb http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif


I still think people have missed the thing I was really rtrying to get at. If you as a person are totally against violence against living creatures, how then can you revel in and enjoy CRPG's or other computer games in which it is nesecary to go out and slaughter loads of virtual creatures. If you are against violence, would you not also be against the glorification of it in our recreation?

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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

[This message has been edited by MagiK (edited 09-21-2001).]

Yes I have played nearly every CRPG currently on the shelf, and yes they do rely heavily on the violent destruction of some NPC's. I have chopped, hacked, bludgeoned and blasted my way through hundreds of hours of virtual destruction.
The key concept here is "virtual". This role-playing is not reality. In the better games, like BG and BGII, your character is dramatically affected by the choices you make, the monsters and NPC's you treatise with, or against, or kill. In real life, the choices I make dramatically affect the outcome of my life.
In a computer game, I am playing the role of a character. Sometimes the role offers choices I wouldn't choose in real life, but are consistent with the character I'm playing.
In real life the choices I'm faced with are sometimes of the "lesser of two evils" variety. (election years come to mind...) however, I don't get to reset, or load a saved game, or use a cheat code. It's real life, after all.

The answers you are getting are consistent. Fantasy is Fantasy and Reality is Reality. What are you not getting here that you are asking for?

What I don't get is how a person who abhors violence can find enjoyment in games that are in large part based on it.

I am willing to admit that maybe I am the only one around who minds apparent incosistancies is all, its not really a big deal. I was just curious and now that it is officially weekend for me, Im off to hit the trails and take some pics.


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Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.

OK. I'm not understanding what you are regarding as inconsistent. By your apparent argument, we could also equate assasination, euthanasia, war, and capital punishment. They're all just ways to kill, aren't they? Do you hold the same view on each?




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http://sc.communities.msn.com/tn/02/...Site/2/17e.jpg

Yes my refrence to Claf was a baby cow.

As for your other post I have a joke: (no offence, just reminded me of it)

A man took a vegatarian out to eat one night, the man ordered a steak and the vegatarain ordered a salad.

The man said "We are all ganna die anyway, no mater what you eat, and then when you get to heaven God is going to ask you why you ate grass instead of all that meat I gave you!"

But your probley not a Christain are you?



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http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif

So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas
Messenger of the Emerald Dragon

May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity.

The shadow aspect of the human psyche. In a repressed state, one is ignorant of their own fear and violence, and unable to control the impulse to act upon them.
Embracing the shadow, and simulating those primal instincts to kill and hurt allows for a release and self-awarness to what is hidden to most people of conscious.

I am a pacifist, and I have avidly engaged in crpg/pnp roleplaying games for many years. I have played peaceful negoiators, vengful murders, crazed rapists, and warriors of justice who only take life if it is the last resort. A full range of human characteristics is available to expirience, with no harm done to another. A clean conscious.

I think avoiding "violence" in a game, for me, would be like avoiding a crucial, yet misunderstood part of myself. In the light of self-knowledge, a purposful release of my violent tendecies seems wiser than denial or repression.

Besides, crpgs usually portray "fantasic" elements, that are more akin to dreams/nightmares than real life. The games that are graphically "realistic" ie. Involve a first person view of killing another human being for amusement, I tend to take in moderation, though I dont rule them out entirely for the reasons I stated before... After all I am an adult, with a firm grasp on reality.

[This message has been edited by G'kar (edited 09-21-2001).]

Grand-Ranger, there is a difference between killing cows for meat and killing wild animals for the sake of killing. Who has suggested letting calves run wild? People who are anti-hunting object to the fact that hunters go out with guns and jeeps etc to kill wild animals for the sake of recreation or for money (eg ivory), not because they need to (eg food).

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/flypig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

Goddess and Sorceress of the HADB, and her sidekick Pink

Well tell me if I am wrong but Killing is Killing.

I dont think people who are agaisnt hunting would be for killing cows either.



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http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif

So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas
Messenger of the Emerald Dragon

May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity.

Grand Ranger - I don't understand what you mean about letting 2000 calfs run wild? (Puzzled!) What has that got to do with hunting??

Am I a Christian? Er, no, I definitely am not! However, I do have a spirituality, which is a source of great strength and joy to me. (She perches on my shoulder, when things get tough, she hides in my rucksack. When things get really really bad, I tuck her in my bra for safe keeping.)

I don't particularly go for Christianity for the same reasons as I don't go for any other religion - don't like dogma, don't like being told what to do, and I don't see how anybody else's version of god is gonna be any truer than the one I come up with myself. Cos basically, no-one really knows! All the holy books validate themselves....

So, there you go! You were quite right.

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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

Well I am against hunting but I eat meat. In this case killing is not killing IMO. As I said, there is a difference between killing for the sake of recreation and killing for food. Hunting, in the sense that you kill an animal because that's you way of life and use it for survival, like some African groups etc, is different to some executive going out with his rifle to bag a trophy and feel like a big man, and different to people killing elephants etc for their ivory and leaving the carcuses behind because they're not useful (i.e. can't give them any money) to them. Farming animals for the purpose of providing food is different again, though I do think that many abetoirs could kill the livestock more humanely.

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/flypig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

Goddess and Sorceress of the HADB, and her sidekick Pink

I must say, I beg leave to differ. The way animals are farmed in the developed world, is, as I said before, totally inhumane and disgusting. I don't like hunting, but in many cases, bad as it is, I would prefer it to the intensive farming that produces the food people routinely buy in their supermarkets. An animal that is hunted at least has the chance to live a large part of its life in the open, in freedom. Many animals that are intensively farmed never get such an opportunity. Do you know anything about the poultry industry? The sheep farming industry? The dairy industry? The pig farming industry? It's not pretty, I can assure you.

The intensive way that we farm animals is very bad for the environment. In addition, it makes no economic sense whatsoever when it comes to feeding the world.


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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

I could care less about violent glorification in a game - if I liked that, I'd play lots of FPSs such as Blood. I see BG2 as a tactical thing. Something with twists and storyline. As far as bopping beasties go, I don't rate it one way or another. As it's not real I don't see it as glorifying anything other than the game genre



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In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is pimp.
Lord Raptor's Site
http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...s/chickenL.gif

Well it godo you dont know I mean by the 2000 calf thing.

If you let 2000 calfs go wild (and if you didnt kill cows there would evuachally by 2000 calfs in one place) there would be utter choas. If you get an over population of Calfs then it will be bad, trust me on this one, I am from texas http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

As for the hunting subject-

its a hobbie, animals have no souls..Just Animals, I dont belive in Animal Cruelty, but there is nothing wrong with hunting in my opoion. I could give you some religous scripts on it but most people here arent Christan

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http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif

So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas
Messenger of the Emerald Dragon

May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity.

I know, Silver Cheetah. It would be better for the environment, and no worse for us if we all ate soy beans, in fact I think evolutionarily it has been shown from our teeth that we in fact are not suposed to be meat eaters. My argument against hunting isn't people who hunt to eat, but people who hunt for recreation. I absolutely agree about the poultry industry etc, there are better more humane ways to do it, but I just don't think it's feasible to argue that we shouldn't eat meat because that will never happen.

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http://members.aol.com/ladyliliara/images/flypig.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/hero2.gif

Goddess and Sorceress of the HADB, and her sidekick Pink

Some fascinating facts about egg laying chickens

There are about 250 million hens in U.S. egg factories that supply 95% of the eggs in this country. In these facilities the birds are held in battery cages that are very small with slanted wire floors which cause severe discomfort and foot deformation. Between five and eight birds are crammed in cages only 14 square inches in size.

Since the birds have no room to act naturally, they become very aggressive and attack the other birds in their cage; to help combat this behavior, the birds have their beaks seared off at a young age. The chicks are sorted at birth and newborn males are separated and suffocated in trash bags.

The layer hens are subjected to constant light to encourage greater egg production. At the end of their laying cycle they are either slaughtered or forced to molt by water and food deprivation, which shocks them into another layer cycle.

Many birds become depleted of minerals because of this excessive egg production and either die from fatigue or can no longer produce eggs and are sent to the slaughterhouse.

This is quite normal. This particular example happens to refer to the US, but it's the same in the UK and the rest of Europe.



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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest a diet of just soy beans! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif Personally, I love my food, I find eating to be a very sensual experience, and I would be the first to start complaining if my diet was limited in any way.

I think if more people really knew the facts about how our meat is produced, they would become vegetarian. It's rare that we see this kind of information in the media. In the UK, we have had some documentaries, which is good. They are completely horrifying. Children especially find this kind of information horrifying and inexplicable. I think until told, many of them do not equate the plastic wrapped slabs of meat in the supermarket with the piggies and moo cows that they like so much in story books. When they make the connection, they are usually stunned and upset. It's a normal reaction.

I'm often quite puzzled at the vehemence with which people say they couldn't 'give up' meat. What's to give up? There are so many other delicious things to eat... I know lots of people who say they know the facts about intensive farming, but still choose to eat meat. I don't wish to attack anyone, but I find this just bizarre. I think if some of those people spent a day in an intensive farming situation, or in an abbattoir, they might change their minds. So many people love their cats or their dogs, and yet can eat cows and pigs.

One animal, not so very different to another, is to be loved and petted, the other is a machine for milk or meat. Human beings rational? Ho ho ho.



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http://www.asnsoup.com/silvercheetahfinal.jpg

Pro death penalty
CRPG's are GAMES not real. But I have no conflict with them.
In DEFENSE of my FAIMLY, FRIENDS, or Country I could kill or be killed without loosing a wink of sleep.
For Grand-ranger: Give me a legal shot at BAMBI, I'll take it, then mount his head on my wall, and stare at it while I eat venison!

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http://www.123imagehost.com/images/b...arrissig02.gif
"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

Well I don't know about others but to me a game is just that, a game, its not real, i play fantasy CPRG"s for fun and to release tension, I prefer the roleplaying aspect of games and don't just go running around killing anything in my games.
People need to differeatiate (sp) between real life and computer games
Just cause I kill some orcs and gnolls in my games doesn't mean I'd kill anyone in real life and I don't feel computer games glorify violence or anything
I don't play games like DOOM ect cause they just don't appeal to me
I don't like shooters or hack n slash type games


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You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fuckin' khakis. You are not a beautiful or unique snowflake. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world.
http://www.facelink.com/edit/raw/raw...65/1905965.jpg

Hey Lady Nightshade, good to see you here. BTW, I love your sig, that was a great show.


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http://sc.communities.msn.com/tn/02/...Site/2/17e.jpg

LOL!

Right on.

And, LS, It is just a game. But, I think the point he was making is how dose one that is Anty Voilance do things that steal realte to violance...


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http://www.asnsoup.com/RangerPatroit.gif

So if in the forest look behind you, because that where the ranger is going to be

Grand-Jester of Laghing Hyenas
Messenger of the Emerald Dragon

May a pregnant yak chew on your ear for all eternity.