In my limited vocabulary, I could not find a term that defines such an action on September 11th. I wished "evil" is a fitting term, yet it is not. For evil iteself pales in the presence of such horror.

If any of those who committed the crime is in least way capable of love, care or compassion, he would not do it. Not to so many! Not to ANYONE!

I just have to remind myself that, those who died in that tragic day, will not die in vain. Their blood will be vegenced, and whoever did this will be brought to justice. For no tyrrants, terroists, dictators, anything, nothing on earth can stop the full force of humanity, when billions of people are bend together and united with one faith.

<font size='+10'>we WILL catch the little punks!!!</font>

[This message has been edited by 250 (edited 09-13-2001).]

250, in that vocabulary of yours, have you come across the word 'rhetoric'?

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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-13-2001).]

And what will you do to them when you find them?

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Hey! Like RPGs? See the DungeonCraft - RPG Game Maker on the Ironworks Gaming Forum

me? you mean my personal secret tortures? hehehehehehe (sick laugh, and evil grin)

you DON'T want to know

Why are all of you people trying to make it out that Americans are stupid, uniformed people that don't know anything. You two so far seems be mocking a person that is obviously distraught by the deaths of many thousands of his(and my own) countrymen. Terrorism is something that the free world is against. Including every citizen of the UK. How would you guys feel if tens of thousands of people were randomly killed in London out of the blue? I don't care how much you dispise Americans but in the very least respect them enough after the deaths of so many. Some of the "strangers" you can so idly comment about are actually family here. So how about keeping your snide comments to yourselves. Thanks.

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Can an elf get a break anywhere these days?

http://angelfire.com/rpg/aurican/images/sig.gif
http://angelfire.com/rpg/aurican

Your probably right there.

The thing is, though, how do deal with such monsters without becoming a monster yourself?

thank you, we always need to remember what happened on September 11th. It just drives us forward until we seek out every sick little bastards from their hiding holes

I am not American, by the way, but I love the nation!

I am a F---ING monster, got it?

Aurican, I'm sorry if anything I have said has made you think that I think this is some sort of joke. I DO NOT. I cannot emphasise that enough.
I was trying to find out what people plan to do when they catch with these cretins (to light a word).
So if you're upset, I'm very sorry (I mean it).


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Hey! Like RPGs? See the DungeonCraft - RPG Game Maker on the Ironworks Gaming Forum

something, guys


http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif

If you are refering to my comment, let me explain the rational behind it.

My heart goes out to the people who died in NY and Washington, and to the families who mourn them. I do NOT see this as some kind of joke, nor do I take it lightly.

However, the idea that this is some inexplicable attack on freedom and democracy which has no basis in past actions by the American government and previous US governments is simplistic and uninformed, in my opinion. I do not condone these atrocities. On the contrary! However, there is such a thing as cause and effect, and it is useless to condemn actions out of hand without looking at the historical actions that led up to them.

As you are very likely aware, the US must bear its part of the responsibility in creating Islamic terrorist groups. For example, during the cold war, the US financed a number of extremist groups, including that of Bin Laden, to use against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

What I'm saying is less warmongering rhetoric, more looking at the background, what led up to the events. That's the only sensible way to construct a strategy to move forward. There's such a thing as learning from mistakes, but to do that, you need to be aware of what they are.

I am not singling out America for special treatment here. Exactly the same can be said of Britain and the rest of Europe with regard to the colonies. There's a large element which still refuses to accept that we bear any blame for what has happened in the ex colonial countries.


250's post did not come across as being particularly distraught - it was the big 'PUNKS' comment in bold that did it for me. If people want to rant, then fine, go right ahead. But I'm entitled to my opinion too, ok? Rhetoric is what Saddam uses, what the Ayatollah used, what dictators everywhere use. All those emotive words. I'm always worried when I see it. To my mind, it's no replacement for thought.




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"He who hunts monsters should take care not to become a monster himself."

"When you look long into the abyss the abyss also looks into you."

I'm pretty sure that Nietzche said the second one.

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Worshipper of Tiax.

Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.

Member of the HADB clan. http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy

[This message has been edited by Neb (edited 09-13-2001).]

My main worry is that in dealing out punishment to the wrong do-ers, we might end up hurting innocent people. It don't think this will happen, but it IS a worry for me.


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Hey! Like RPGs? See the DungeonCraft - RPG Game Maker on the Ironworks Gaming Forum

Well one thing would be to treat them as criminals of war. Make them stand trial in the court in Haag, the same as the Nazis had to face for their inhuman acts some of them dealt to people during the war. Make a world wode organisation that hunts warcriminals and terrorist alike. Make no room for them. Start the manhunt and bring them to justice.

As democratic countries, that is what we should do. What we all might want to do, we maybe better keep to ourselves...

In reality, no punishment is severly enough, but we can never get back what is lost in these attakcs, but we can try to reclaim ourselves and show them that we can fight back being "us"..

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

I agree that they should be brought to justice, and I agree that they should be punished in some way more harsh than being hit over the head with pillows(Not ones filled with lead or bricks), I agree that they should in fact be punished VERY harshly, no mercy, but there must be a limit to how far we can go before we are as bad as them.

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Worshipper of Tiax.

Wielder of the ancient Lawyer spells.

Member of the HADB clan. http://www.dabros.net/images/tcampbell/hadb5.jpg

Ally of the Fluffy Queen and the Dreaded Red Fluffy

Yes, that seems to me the best and most civilised way to go, once it is found out for sure who the perpetrators are. The evidence needs to be shown in court, and justice done for all to see, without hurting the innocent. If it is bin Laden though, it's the same old problem. How do you find him? It's not like people havn't tried.... For those who want to do indiscriminate bombing, same problem. bin Laden never stays in the same place two nights running. He knows exactly what he's doing when it comes to keeping out of the hands of the West, - he's been doing it for long enough.... and he's very good at it.


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For the individuals they will have a trial, because even thougyh we want blood, justice must be meet. Also we have to insure that we have the correct people. i already feel sorry for the defense attorny.

Silver Cheetah, I love you http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Well said as usual.

Indeed silver Cheetah, that why all democratic countries have to act together and make some sort of global antiterrorism unite that operates to do the searches and so for them all. Take use of all the allies, Israel is pretty good at finding terrorists, as is the Russians. The UK and Germany and Italy have had their share of terrorism. Together we get many and we get a larger budget and all. And together we can close borders, put pressure on countries that harbour terrorists and war criminals alike. Economy is a great weapon to weaken states in need of money...

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Be vevvy qwiet..I´m hunting wabbits...
Wolfgirs lair
once-upon-a-paper

It's understandable what Silver Cheetah is saying, but I don't think you can quite grasp the range of emotions that Americans are going through right now.

For the most part we are isolated geographically from the rest of the world. For this to happen so suddenly and without warning (and for those of you who claim blah blah the government forsaw this coming, the majority of the American people did not) is almost unbelievable to Americans. We simply have not an event of this magnitude EVER in American history. People have been making comparisons to Pearl Harbor, but we were in fact in the midst of a World War, and we were already involved... not declared, but de facto.

This was not a military act. This was a terrorist act.

I've noticed that a lot of people (Americans and non-Americans) are quick to say that we are arrogant and that we disrespect the rest of the world. I think this is unfair, but im not here to discuss international politics.

Its just too early to be making assumptions of retaliation, but it is also too early to try to pin the blame and in a roundabout way say we had it coming. No one deserves this, no matter who or where they are.


On Tuesday morning, I awoke to ignorant cheers of "We are going to war!". When I asked what was going on, no one would tell me, and had to turn on the TV to see the Twin Towers ablaze. the WTC is less than 15 miles from my home. I regularly look out to see the towers and the NY skyline.

I cannot describe to you the feeling of helplessness I had, being away from home. I know people who's parents were in the tower at that time. You try telling them that rhetoric is irresponsible.


It is simply too early... too much too soon. Let us regroup, and don't base your opinions of the US on the wild emotions that are running through the nation right now. We are scared as a whole. We lost many people.

Please have some consideration.

Any of you ever seen Little Nicky? Great movie. Part of the movie takes place in "hell". In the movie, every day as punishment, satan makes Hitler(who they also force to wear a dress) select a huge pineapple, and then satan jams it up his a$$ as punishment for his atrocities.

This really has nothing to do with anything, but I was just thinking of punishments for mass murderers and it popped in my head.

BTW, 250 is just trying to be supportive and I for one appreciate it. It means
alot to have moral support from other countries. As long as we all agree that they are wrong to one degree or another, lets not fight over how to say they are wrong.


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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)
http://www.asnsoup.com/americansig.jpg
Member of CLAN HADB

[This message has been edited by MILAMBER (edited 09-13-2001).]

LOL. No, haven't seen that movie, but thanks for sharing.

Yes, that would be a fitting punishment http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...miles/wink.gif

Soul brother, I love you too http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/cheer.gif



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Milamber, your pineapple image is just hysterical! Made me laugh a lot.

Re 250s post, sure. Not interested in fighting! Just adding my mite, is all.....

The sight of the towers coming down distressed me greatly, - my friend and I cried and cried, and we are outsiders. I can only imagine how it must feel to you who are there.

But I think it would be wrong to suspend rational analysis and discussion, which includes looking at cause and effect.

Communication and analysis of our different points of view is what helps us to understand each other, and bring us closer together. It also gives us a better chance of getting a peek at that elusive creature we sometimes call truth.

My apologies if I have offended or upset anyone, - it was not my intention (but then, it never is...... http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif)



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Yes. Also, in answer to those who might say that such analysis should wait until later, for some of us it is a way of dealing with the tragedy -- trying to understand it and come to terms with it and hopefully start the process of making sure it never happens again.

Raif, thanks for your thoughts. You have communicated your feelings on this in a way that touches me deeply. Thank you for your simplicity, and your heartfeltness.

Like you, I don't want to get into a big political discussion here - however, there ARE issues with America and the rest of the world. It would be idle to suggest otherwise. And no, maybe it is not the time to bring them up... so, what to do?

I can do one of three things. I can get off the forum and mind my own business. I can look on and say nothing. I can participate falsely, i.e. by saying things and agreeing with things that I don't actually believe.

I am a relatively new member of this forum. One of the reasons I joined it was to share some of my views on the world, views which are anti-violence, which are rooted in the belief that community, not competition, is the way forward for human beings if we are to survive on this planet, views which see globalism as a threat to our collective environment and the future of humanity. These things often lead me to take a viewpoint which some might define as anti-American.

That's a sweeping definition, and I'm not quite sure what it means. If it means questioning some things about the American way of life and way of being in the world, maybe I am. If it means hating Americans, no I am not. So far, I've visited your country three times, and will be doing so again, I hope. Particularly, I loved New York, where I spent a fabulous week (not long enough).

To get back to my point - like any event which takes place in the world, big or small, this particular tragic event has a history. Nothing exists in isolation.

Personally, I am very interested in the 'whys' of things. At present, understandably, America is more interested in 'how' and 'who' than 'why'. But why is a question that deserves to be raised, and which should be answered, for the simple reason that it may lead not only America but the world in general to take a look at how we are running our world right now, and how we could maybe do it better, for the good of all of us. In my view, it is only by questioning the past and the present, that we have any hope of building a sustainable future.

Questioning is important. Not to do so disempowers us as individuals.

Again, my apologies if I have given offence where none was intended.


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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-13-2001).]

It shows that you are a writer. Very well said. I agree wholeheartedly that rational discussion and analysis are critical to us all resolving our feelings on this matter. Indeed, cause and effect are a part of rational analysis. Right now though, I would argue that effect is more important then cause. I think that everybody views the terrorist actions as wrong(excepting the terrorists and their supporters). That being the case, the cause cannot alter the wrongness of their actions whatsoever. All it can do is shed light on the motivation that spurred the slaughter. It can do nothing to repair the damage done. I honestly wasn't aware that the U.S funded bin Laden during the cold war, and if that is the case, we certainly played a role in our own tragedy. I guess at least for myself and maybe some other Americans on the board as well, I'm so locked into the effect right now that the cause can't do anything to console me yet. Knowing why or how does nothing to bring the countless thousands back to us. That said, there's still no excuse for being unobjective, but objectivity usually doesn't do much to heal emotional wounds.

One of the biggest reasons I love this forum is for the opportunity to speak with people from around the globe and get their opinions on things and try and understand their cultures. This is no different. Honestly I have probably heard more Americans saying similar things to what you just did SC then I have from anywhere else. I think that says a lot. While we all might disagree on the importance of why these things happened, I think we can all agree that they were tragic. As long as we are all in agreement there, then we're all on the same team.

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)
http://www.asnsoup.com/americansig.jpg
Member of CLAN HADB

Absolutely!!!!!!

From the quote thread...

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid. "
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)


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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)
http://www.asnsoup.com/americansig.jpg
Member of CLAN HADB

I was hoping everyone to write a memoir or express their emotion a bit. ■■■■ it then

Common bro, let it go. People are expressing their emotions after a fashion. Actually, now they are expressing their emotions about expressing their emotions...if that makes sense. Don't get pissedhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)
http://www.asnsoup.com/americansig.jpg
Member of CLAN HADB

I am not pissed, it is just my way of saying

"I don't give a ---- to those who don't give a ---- "

I shall continue my never ending support!

Milamber, of course. They were tragic, and the perpetrators, whoever they are, are wrong. Whatever Americans may or may not have done, two wrongs never made a right yet, and this is one great big whopping almighty wrong. I agree with you wholeheartedly on that! And I completely understand where your coming from with your point about objectivity.

This forum is amazing. It's just stunning to be able to communicate with so many different types of people, on such widely diverse topics. May the forum live forever! (Must be strong and spend less time on it though! I'm not getting anything done!!!! I expect the urge to post wears off after a while, does it? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif)




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Hey 250 I'm not always in agreement with you, but I sure as hell am now. Just letting you know.

Silver Cheetah~

I did not mean to jump, and I'm glad you didn't seem to take offense...

All I can say is that it's such an emotional time, and we can't always take things at face value.

Much Respect
~Scott