I have my own quite clear views on this-which I won't impart just yet but I'm interested in seeing what everyone else thinks before I post.

I'm also interested in why you are for/against the death penalty.

Thank you

Very touchy subject among the masses. I personally have nothing against the death penalty for numerous reasons, but it is bad IF the person ends up getting proven innocent. I mean, we'll never no for sure in some cases if the person is truly guilty or not http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/frown.gif

against, in most cases. If a 19 year old guy commits a murder when he is trying to get some drug-money, he shouldn't be killed himself. He should get threatment. Then, he could go out and tell people the bad about drugs and so on... my english is not good enhough for this, not at this hour.

THOUGH, if someone comits a really SICK crime (NOT cheating with taxes, even though our goverment seems to think that is the worst a man can do), like raping a little girl, he is ill, and will undoubtly do it again when he comes out, I think a painfull death is the only option to me...
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[This message has been edited by Istaron (edited 09-07-2001).]

Well, I'm against the capital punishment (I did an English essay on this not too long ago but I won't bother to write it down here, it was rather forceful and might offend one of you who is for it). I quote from J.R.R. Tolkien's "The Lord of the Rings": "Yes, he deserves death. And many who live deserve life. Can you give it back to them? Then do not be so hasty to deal out death in retribution." I consider these words to be very true. In many cases, there is a slight chance that the person is innocent. There have been people killed in the past where it has later been proven that they were innocent. Can we kill these people, knowing that they may be innocent? Who are we to decide over the life of another human being? And also, the system may be corrupt, for instance more black men are killed than white. And the rich people who can afford a better lawyer have an advantadge. I consider the capital punishment to be barbaric, primitive and something we should have left back in the Stone Age. Whoa, this is also quite forcefully worded - it's almost exactly what I wrote in English! Oh well, I hope nobody takes offence...

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If they are caught dead to right's smokin gun and all
kill em. I have my reasons for this point of view..http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/triste.gifhttp://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/mad111.gif
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If you dont know where you are going, stop spin around three times and then your home.

I am not opposed to the death penalty in theory. I do have problems with the way it sometimes works in practice.

If it is reserved for only the most heinous cases, with the strongest evidence of guilt, I have no problem with it.

I believe strongly in the death penalty with some provisos.

Firstly there has to be overwhelming, incontrovertible non circumstantial evidence (dna or fingerprints etc) that the person being executed committed the crime. If there is any doubt they should get a life sentence instead.

Secondly they need to have the right to appeal against the death penalty more than once-three times is probably the best.

Third the method of death needs to be as quick and if possible painless.

I believe there are crimes so disgusting the only way they can be punished is by taking someone's life in return, those that spring to mind are:
1. murder (except when proved to be in self defence)
2. any rape
3. terrorism

I would also like to point out that I strongly believe everyone, defence and prosection should have their lawyers assigned to them by the state and not be able to pick and choose. (but it'll never happen)

AGAINST!
Two wrongs do not make a right.

A few points/questions:

Fingerprinting and especially DNA evidence are not the fool proof gifts of God to law enforcement that it is fashionable to assume nowadays. Assuming a useful sample can be found in a serious case, we must always remember that the laboratories which do the analysis are run by humans, and the results interpreted by humans. Mistakes can and do happen. That is even assuming that the underlying theories about DNA comparisons are valid -- the fact that people are quickly jumping on the DNA bandwagon as a tool for law enforcement does not mean they are correct in doing so. There is actually reason to question the underlying theories, but the voices of those who do so are being drowned out in the rush to adopt this latest quick fix fad.

Regarding the right to 3 appeals -- I am not sure I understand you. What would be the point of that? Are the appellate judges going to change their minds the second and third times around?

Against
We cannot remove someones life
nomatter what he did

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I Am The SunGod
Here To Enlighten You

against it, but not for some of the above reasons... i see it as bad, since its a much greater punishment to have to spend your enitre life in prison without chance for parole.

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It's simple. Once the Planet is hurt, it gathers Spirit Energy to heal the injury. The amount of energy gathered depends on the size of the injury...What would happen if there was an injury that threatened the very life of the Planet? Think how much energy would be gathered! Ha, ha, ha. And at the center of that injury, wil be me. All that boundless energy will be mine. By merging with the energy of the Planet, I will be come a new life form, a new existence. Melding with the Planet, I will cease to exist as I am now. Only to be reborn as a 'God' to rule over every living soul.
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I AM 100% Against The Death Penalty, I Think Its Sick And Cruel, Being Locked Up In A Cell Knowing That Tomorrow, They're Going To Kill You

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I Am... The Bad Dude

I think one of the primary benefits of the death penalty is as a deterrant to those who kill. It is a warning that tells them: "if you kill, you will be killed". It can make a lot of people seriously think. The problem is when it is administered like it is in America today. It happens YEARS after the crime was committed if it happens at all. There is no threat of immediate consequence. As it is today, I think it's completely useless and ineffective. In theory I'm not completely against it, but I am completely against how it is administered now.

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[This message has been edited by MILAMBER (edited 09-07-2001).]

Murder is not murder if the killing is done in self-defence.

Does rape, while appalling and evil, really deserve to attract a response of state sanctioned judicial murder?

Terrorism - hmmm difficult one. Always remember "One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter"

For myself, I understand the emotional attraction of the death penalty. However I cannot support it for two main reasons

a) There is no right of appeal and the courts and juries will get verdicts wrong. Especially where the evidence is fabricated/tampered with, there is a conspiracy to convict or the defence is simply incompetent.

b) The death sentence denies the possibility that the criminal may change and be reformed and possibly even make genuine restitution in the future.

It may be a radical approach, but I would confine the state sanctioned ending of life to those, who having sufficient mental capacity, repeatedly make a rational request to have their lives ended. This could be applied to those in long term/life imprisonment.



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Regards

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Mouse

[This message has been edited by Mouse (edited 09-07-2001).]

No, I Just Think It Should Be Life Imprisonment

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I Am... The Bad Dude

Problem with capital punishment is that it's non-reversible

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I Am The SunGod
Here To Enlighten You

Amen To That

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I Am... The Bad Dude

Personally I'm against it. IMHO it just makes us sink to there level. Also life in prizon without parole in my opinon is much worse of a punishment.

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Many blade cut weather they are mettle or wood, but the sharpest and deadlyist blade it the one of knowledge.

We have had this discussion before. This time it seems to be much more civil.
That's great in my opinion.

I am for the death penalty.
If life in prison really meant life in prison, I might be swayed in that direction. But, it doesn't. The point is there are some just plain evil S.O.B's out there and they need to be removed from society permanently. Many are people who see the only evil in the world as not getting what they want when they want it.

I would also like to see the States adopt lethal injection over other forms
of execution. I know it means that they receive a much easier death in most cases that what they dealt out. But, we don't need to make them suffer more
they already would.

Re-Habilitation has been shown not to work. People do not change unless they want to. That is a fact. Numerous attempts have been made in that vein already and most failed miserably. There are a few shinning examples, but as I said those are folks who wanted to change. Many in prison think the only thing they did wrong was getting caught.

There is one thing that really bothers me right now though. There is a Forensic
Examiner in Kansas (I think) who, it has now been proven, manufactured evidence.
In one case so far the defendant was put to death. It also turns out there was alot more evidence that supported the Death Penalty and Guilt. So the defendant wasn't an innocent. But.......what about the thousands of other cases this woman
worked on? What should be her punishment?

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The line between good and evil is razor sharp. Be careful of misteps,
lest you find yourself spitted upon your own blade.

In the phsycos cases, it doesn't work. I have read about a certain Ginger Fish who ate his victims (mainly little girls). Well, such man should REALLY be put to death, he is pure evil, twisted and sick.

But say a 20 year old man runs into a store with a gun and says he wants monye. He is high/drunk and nervoes, so accidently, a bullet goes off and kills someone... should he really be executed for that? Life time prisson and given the opportunity to help other people from his stage of socity would help the nation and himself much more that waist electricity on him.


And I believe that fear of being executed scare people off is just bullshit. A sane person would never kill anyone on purpose, and mad men have no abbility to se consequenses like we do.

By the way, what do you think about the wepon-policy that some states in the US has? That you are acctually allow to carry wepons...

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We call him Bobby Corwen
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I am 100% for the death penalty!

Sure there are a very, very small percentage of those on death row that are proven innocent, but should we scrap the entire thing b/c it might save 1 or 2 lives. Look at the number of innocent lives that are taken b/c of mistakes (wars, accidental shootings...) yeah it is tragic, but mistakes are going to be whether the person is given death or given life in prison....how many innocents died while in prison from natural causes or at the hands of other inmates?

Plus the only 'worse' thing about giving people life in prison over the death penalty is the waste of our tax dollars! Life in prison is not a worse punishment...so what if they have to sit and think about what they did...that is a bad punishment? They are going to die in prison, who cares if they have to sit and think about their crime for 10 years or 60!



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It's more like an ethical thing
Those people should be out of sociaty
Throw them in a cage with 10 people in a 30 m2 area for all i care
but to kill is just something i cannot do
At least i think i cannot do
I hope I'll never have to find out....

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I Am The SunGod
Here To Enlighten You

What is exacly life in prison? How can one get several life sentences? I really wish that I knew how that works in our country. As far as I know a manslauter charge will only get you up to ten in some places ...mybe under?? In and out, play the game.
If I say human rights will you think of a larger veiw or your part of the world. In Germany, will the police take any crap.. Flailing or brandishing a weapon will get you dead on the spot.Many other countrys where automatic weapons are standard gear for the authoritys as well.
What if America or other countrys didnt have a death penalty law??? I know one thing..I am already watching my back as the laws stand now. I do hate false accusations and wrong doings...so far the majority of people here are very much against the ultimate penalty..which I am against also...but repealing DNA testing over and over again is where I would spend my energies. Not taking these laws off the book.</p>*\Conan/*

I think you'll find that people who commit crimes never think they'll get caught. So no punishment is a deterrent. Countries with the death penalty have no less crimes than countries without.

The point of three appeals is so that if there is a really contentious crime which disgusts everyone (including a jury say) the person convicted gets another chance at being proved innocent when emotions are not running quite as high-Timothy McVeigh, Jill Dando, Meg Russell, Rosemary West cases for example.


As far as DNA and fingerprinting is concerned yes they can be flawed but this is another reason why you get the appealsso if there is any doubt (and believe me the defence would have raised its concerns about this evidence) can be double checked. I'm intrigued to know exactly what problems there are with dna testing perhaps you could enlighten me.

I don't want to cause offence but you are being a touch selective in your criticism. As I said earlier you should only pass the death sentence on someone where there is incontrovertible proof they have committed a crime,that dna evidence should be backed by eye witness accounts, cctv footage and circumstantial evidence before you even consider putting someone to death.

You would not just say ok we've got a dna match you're guilty lets execute you.

On a slightly different note the taking of a human life IS murder in the UK-can't remember his name but a farmer got life recently for shooting a burglar who was robbing his house.

Execution is murder. It is wrong to deliberately take the life of another person, whatever that person may or may not have done.

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in that case, they should shoot the lawyers who provide false testimonies

Against. As a Catholic I don't believe that we have the right to take a human life, no matter what that human being did. Lock people away for a hundred years without hope of parole if you want to, that is probably worse punishment than death. Death penalty only makes the victims feel better IMO.

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